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U.G. Krishnamurti - You Have No Experiences
Lectures Beyond Beyond
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From Thinking Allowed, interviewed by Jeffrey Mishlove. More info: http://www.thinkingallowed.com/2krish...
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Lectures Beyond Beyond
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Sejin Lifeforce 生命
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@javiermontalvo8495
@javiermontalvo8495
1 month ago
This interview is a treasure for humanity… UG is a genius
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@joemuis23
@joemuis23
4 years ago
"I was never interested in anything but what is dead" wow that describes me perfectly.
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@johndoe42373
@johndoe42373
1 month ago
This guy just threw a wrench in the whole of my existence.
I simply know nothing. I can't even sit here and say that I am.
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@AtmanMusicOfficial
@AtmanMusicOfficial
3 years ago
I think many people misunderstand him and label him as nihilist. He is more like a Zen master who cuts all your anchors. His statements are like a Zen Koan. I think he is a very compassionate and wise man who realised the biggest and only obstacle in front of us is thought. By negating everything he puts us in a state of nothingness like Buddha did. The problem with many truth seekers is following perceptions given by spiritual traditions or gurus. I think U G realised that we created our reality based on assumptions and he takes all of them away. He wants us to experience directly what is remained behind after removing all thoughts and assumptions. His negative statements are not to give any beliefs
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14 replies
@krissifadwa
@krissifadwa
3 months ago
"You have no experience that you can call your own."
"I have never been interested in anything but what is dead..."
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@mayankmishra3788
@mayankmishra3788
4 years ago
m grateful to hear such interviews...thanks a lot 👍
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@sandeeptayde6824
@sandeeptayde6824
3 years ago
Nice, great truth beyond the illusion
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@christopherkelley1664
@christopherkelley1664
4 years ago
What you think is the solution is the origin of the problem?
Well hell.
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@shamikde9194
@shamikde9194
2 months ago
I am a big fan of the western rock music by that I mean the philosophy it preached and I spend lot of time writing my own poetry and keep it real by not going commercial and focusing primarily on making my writing matured and autobiographical as well as stylish and good to listen like Dylan Cohen or bukowski but coming from India and West bengali which is one of the literally and spiritual capitols and mind tanks of the world I still was still intellectually and spiritualy specially spiritualy stuck and ug took me to the next level
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@popsofdarkness
@popsofdarkness
2 years ago
thanks for the full videos anyway
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@popsofdarkness
@popsofdarkness
2 years ago
i think that this 15:51 is an important moments in this interview to understand UGK as a whole as it's seems a lot of times contradictory what jebsaid throughout his life
Thanks for Jeffrey Mishlove who is some quite intelligent dude as said by John C Lily who knows when to make the right questions
There are lots of enlighted dudes alright but we shouldn't be persuing the thing
... perhaps because it's a demand of thought. ..
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@lexj432hz6
@lexj432hz6
1 year ago (edited)
Timestamps:
0:35 - Enlightenment, Pleasure, Pain
3:15 - Sex, gurus selling shoddy goods
6:10 - Consciousness
7:15 - Thought created all these demands for Permanence
9:25 - Self, Soul, Spirit
11:00 - No way of knowing you’re alive
11:50 - I think therefore I am
13:00 - Bliss
14:00 - No way out
15:00 - Thought is Time
15:40 - We’re trapped
15:55 - No present moment/Enlightenment
18:35 - No problems, only solutions
22:15 - No such thing as Understanding
23:50 - Science
25:20 - Thought is Space
…
27:14 - Part 2
27:25 - UG talks about his search
29:20 - Meditation
32:00 - Thought battle
35:00 - Breathing exercises
35:45 - Spiritual experiences
36:30 - Knowledge is Power
37:40 - Tears/Crying
38:50 - Relationships
44:50 - Nobody here talking/Functioning of the body
47:25 - Eyes do not recognize anything
48:40 - We are all just computers/robots
49:30 - Materialistic vs. Spiritual
50:40 - Do thoughts exist?
52:30 - We aren’t getting anywhere
53:14 - Let’s talk about light
55:50 - Fear
58:30 - Are you really alive?
1:00:00 - Thoughts are dead not alive
1:00:15 - UG on commercials
1:01:20 - People want palliatives
1:02:55 - We’re all brainwashed
1:05:45 - UG on traveling
1:07:15 - Nobody could help me
1:07:40 - Selfishness
1:09:00 - No Self
1:10:00 - Nothing to understand
1:10:35 - Nothing to be changed
1:11:35 - Murderers have a better chance of enlightenment
1:12:00 - Can UG help anybody?
1:13:10 - Despair is the Solution
1:15:05 - Culture forces everyone into a mold
1:16:35 - Terror will keep us together
1:17:45 - Permanence
1:19:25 - Death
1:22:25 - Philosophy/Logic has no foundation
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4 replies
@simonalevec3014
@simonalevec3014
2 years ago
God bless UG and freedom! !!!
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@percubit10
@percubit10
3 months ago
Having good clean fun and leisure time is healthy.
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@divyangbargali1554
@divyangbargali1554
2 years ago
At the age of 70 having so much long hair is amazing.
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Lectures Beyond Beyond
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3 replies
@synchro9
@synchro9
2 years ago
“ you almost sound Victorian in your approach here “.
This is epic! 4:08
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1 reply
@detodounpoco37
@detodounpoco37
2 years ago
Life is a paradox, lets enjoy it in a natural state
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@endogenousdmt
@endogenousdmt
3 years ago
“you don’t want to act now.”
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@sinandeger72
@sinandeger72
5 years ago
Makes alot of sense it's deep if you have an open mind.
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4 replies
@abhijot7668
@abhijot7668
2 years ago
Your search ends with UG.
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@ajeshkumar2049
@ajeshkumar2049
10 months ago
He is directly telling that the "I" is itself misery and despair born out of desire & fear and the "I" itself voluntarily can't surrender or go away. Which means we need help or way out - which Krishna has said in Geeta or Ashtavakra to Raja Janak.
Here "I" is said to be knowledge and the "I" got it only after it knows about the body. Then remind yourself when you were not aware of yourself. Who was there in the body then? Was there anyone at all??
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@null.och.nix7743
@null.och.nix7743
1 year ago
The non academic version of Paul churchland.. this guy really gets it right.!
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@gunashekarmdu82
@gunashekarmdu82
3 years ago
Mr.UG what's his Formula to Humanity to attain the Self Knowledge and Soul Realize?
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Lectures Beyond Beyond
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5 replies
@krissifadwa
@krissifadwa
1 year ago (edited)
25:33, 35:42, 40:58, 44:50
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@florinmoldovanu
@florinmoldovanu
10 months ago
20:06 "one has to give up" lol
of course UG corrects him here 20:24
20:34 "Aaah!!!" :))
20:36 "B b but you just said that's essential to do"
UG goes on to explain but the simple way I'd put it is "giving up" is action which is very much wrapped in your identity so any action whatsoever is futile in attaining enlightenment.
I would like to illustrate by view of how enlightenment occurs:
Imagine you're in a house and want to get out but it's like a nightmare; there are millions and millions of doors so you try and you try and you try and you try and you try until one day you give up and you have no expectation to ever find the door that lets you out of the building. That day is the day the door you have all along been been looking for will open only to find out that there is no outside. :)))
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3 replies
@vinayseth1114
@vinayseth1114
3 years ago (edited)
It is only natural for the Brahmans to have created this hypothesis. Being a verbally-oriented people, the Brahmans employed rote learning heavily in their learning right from an early age. It makes sense then that they would have become heavily habituated to perceive the world through linguistic mediation, being far removed from perceiving it 'directly'. Even sex turned painful for these myopic overthinkers :D 3:36
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@greeneggz_n_ham
@greeneggz_n_ham
1 year ago
Those of us who are older... we are an impediment to progress.
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@waedjradi
@waedjradi
2 years ago (edited)
His example at 25:28 is enough proof that we are not a physiological structure.
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@THRILL3
@THRILL3
8 months ago
Live die repeat
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@alifmuhammadchicago
@alifmuhammadchicago
3 years ago
39:06, I have to disagree with the statement about the fundamentally pragmatic(?) nature of human relationships, for lack of a better word. We do have mutual benefits that play the most superficial role. Underneath that, however, I think that (part of) the mind searches for the most logical conclusions that lead to actions. Relationships, for instance, serve as a way of lessening the suffering of all the relevant sentient beings involved. This is because humans do not rationally believe in an intrinsic value to the self or others, which means we are all equally value(able)(less) in relation to each other. To act in a way that causes the suffering of others for the sake of oneself is, therefore, not logical, and most adults are conscious of the psychological discomfort that the subconscious has with this illogical circumstance. This discomfort is what people often call a "conscience". Thus, two people who simply benefit from each other's influence are ignoring the deep-seated logical "conscience" that draws them together for a far deeper--and more logically sound--reason. These are my thoughts. What do you think?
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@popsofdarkness
@popsofdarkness
2 years ago
i thought it isn't weird oddly coincidence that 1968 the same year jk wrote his notebook and reported his enlightened experiences ugk also had hia enlightened experiences
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@happening15
@happening15
10 months ago
Answer the question who am I, but not on the basis of knowledge, answer the query on the basis of your own experience. Otherwise do not waste time of yours
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@sofluzik
@sofluzik
3 years ago
I think therefore I am. What is ugk answer to dream and sleep , so is the mind and thoughts there during these states ?? If so, is it still "I think therefore I am". The underpinning of someone's identity , is surely beyond the body as in the dreams body is resting and mind or in ugk vocab it is whatever you want to call it , is active if the premise is thought hasn't come out of the body . Ideally understanding of mind is first essential before he even takes us through a regurgitated vocab journey , if all vocab isnbeing called out as whatever you want to call it" why even use language ...he has to just stop expressing these words ...which are surely originating from the thought to express such. All species want to survive and reproduce, one thing he has at least accepted . If that is the premise , then what makes it different to be so called humans , will another dog , monkey also understand the nuances of this mind and thought ( which again is an invention of the thought ). Ultimately , all these words , knowledge , understanding is by whom ....if the dead cannot do this , who is doing it in life ? A simple example , of how he is ironical is very evident ..., He has dentures for sure from the way it's set z why did he even care for this , whose image is he trying to keep up, and if this is false and so is everything else ....as per him, why even care about looks. Why write books , why give interviews ....if everything is false he had to shun everything ....whose point of view is his selling ...who is this person ...ugk apart from the physical body ....your words in the formation of your thoughts will stay even after you die in the form of books, interview etc
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@freeman669
@freeman669
1 year ago
🌞
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@waedjradi
@waedjradi
1 day ago
24:20 What he says about Scientist is hilarious. They are always searching, on and on, never satisfied of standing on what they have researched. Sounds like madness.
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@FallGuy-68
@FallGuy-68
2 years ago
He made a living being a condescending atheis. Jeffrey is too smart for him.
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Lectures Beyond Beyond
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2 replies
@otg1433
@otg1433
8 months ago
Well here was a guy who could not even support himself, living hand to mouth and in the end asked to be deported back to India. fortunately this enlightened man, a women came along and sheltered him under her wing for the rest of his life.. great enlightened soul better listen to what he says.
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@notinternettype
@notinternettype
7 months ago
Can one be experienced.... without having any experiences?
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1 reply
@krissifadwa
@krissifadwa
9 months ago (edited)
54:18, 1:01:18, 1:04:08, 1:05:06
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@gaspardobicaj4091
@gaspardobicaj4091
2 years ago
An illusionary life invented by thought....
Stop thought stop suffering
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2 replies
@richardsmith7917
@richardsmith7917
3 years ago (edited)
I bet this guy is riot at a funeral
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@krissifadwa
@krissifadwa
6 months ago
12:33
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@synchro9
@synchro9
2 years ago
Is sex totally unrelated to enlightenment? This is a rather deep question. Please answer if your available. Thank you
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4 replies
@arslanrozyjumayev8484
@arslanrozyjumayev8484
9 months ago (edited)
If there is no message, if there is nothing to say, nothing to discover, why did he even had to go to this shows and have this interviews, that is what i want to know.
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Lectures Beyond Beyond
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@random_ramblings
@random_ramblings
6 years ago
Ad nauseam...
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@rajapusapati1
@rajapusapati1
3 years ago
The real deal
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@richardsmith7917
@richardsmith7917
3 years ago
I breath by not believing Im not breathing. Either he's way ahead or he's so far behind you think he's first???
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1 reply
@artandculture5262
@artandculture5262
1 year ago
I have no experiences. Good grief. What ponderers cancel other lives with their rhetoric!
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@abhimanyuganesh9110
@abhimanyuganesh9110
2 months ago
No way as way
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@gunashekarmdu82
@gunashekarmdu82
3 years ago
49 Years Mr.UG have Tried but not get the Answer but it needs only fraction of a Second to get the Enlightened as Declared by Great Soul called Avatars
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@coolfreak123456
@coolfreak123456
1 year ago
He is a legend , he knows that cause he thinks he thinks inside a dead accumulated brain that functions to think . Im grateful to nothing, hmmm.
1
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@BR-gt4zk
@BR-gt4zk
1 year ago
Walk with a cobra is fine..how about a forest lion.. if a child knows nothing about this wild beast will it Care to spare its life
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@paulhammer1363
@paulhammer1363
11 months ago
The interviewer tries to find logic in what UG says, but there isn't any. UG's words are rambling nonsense like a dog barking, as he himself says.
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@JurgenSawyer
@JurgenSawyer
4 months ago (edited)
1:17:45 no permanence.
-heraclitus was 200% right
1:19:25 proof of him experiencing nirvana/boddhisatva
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@nasirfazal5440
@nasirfazal5440
3 months ago
These guys make unverifiable proclamations, mixed with gobbledygook..Prof.Dr.Nasir Fazal gold medalist Cambridge.
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@oscillatingspin
@oscillatingspin
3 years ago
Original thinker. Not that bright.
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1 reply
@DeanGhosh
@DeanGhosh
4 months ago
Whatever, the sitting of two close during the interview makes me sick.
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@FelineFitness
@FelineFitness
5 years ago
He really is obsessed with thots isn't he?
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6 replies
@samcomposer
@samcomposer
3 years ago
I think he also didn’t believe in fake NASA’s space and their cgi ball earth.
============
Transcript
0:00
hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove today we're going to be examining the concept of enlightenment why is it that
0:07
people throughout the world and almost every religious tradition and cultural tradition pursue the notion of
0:13
enlightenment what is enlightenment is there such a thing is it possible to attain enlightenment with me today is
0:20
mr. ug Krishnamurti a world traveler and author of mind as a myth and the
0:26
mystique of enlightenment welcome you Jing here you know people often have
0:31
referred to you as an enlightened being and I know you're very uncomfortable with with that and in fact you told me
0:37
earlier you're uncomfortable with the concept of being at all yes you see the the question arises only in relationship
0:44
it's becoming and enlightenment is also becoming easy so I would go one step
0:52
further and say that the human mind if I may use that word quote and unquote is
0:58
interested only in sensual activity you know the the living organism or the
1:05
human body whatever you want to call it is only responding to the stimuli it is
1:11
not interested in pleasure at all see the moment you use thought to experience
1:18
anything in terms of pleasure it becomes a pain for this body and yet we pursue
1:24
sensuality and yet find only pain in it but we love pain in other words we love
1:31
we enjoy pain and call it pleasure you see the human body is not interested in
1:39
pleasure of any kind it is only interested in maintaining the sensitivity of the nervous system and
1:46
the sensitivity of the functioning of the body so the moment you say a particular sensation is a pleasurable
1:53
sensation the demand to make it lost longer goes with it so then the demand
1:59
to make the pleasure lost longer turns what we call pressure into pain and that's a painful sensation
2:06
to the body the body is trying to be rid of the pleasurable sensation and what we
2:11
are stuck with is pain it almost sounds as if the greater the pleasure then the greater the pain must be we have
2:18
introduced the degree into that what is called pleasure and see because the thought is always interest rate in more
2:25
and more of something and less than less than the other I am NOT saying anything against a pleasure see the moment you
2:31
use thought as an instrument to have pleasure we have there created a problem
2:38
since man has realized since I don't like to use the word man or a human
2:44
being or in general terms to the average man say that man is you and I sitting
2:50
here so since this demand for permanent
2:58
happiness is something which cannot be achieved through anything any thinking
3:04
that is open to us we have projected and created what is called enlightenment
3:10
God's self-realization calling by whatever name you like so that is the
3:15
ultimate pleasure there are stories out of India you've probably heard of great
3:20
Saints who are supposedly in states of Perpetual sexual orgasm that is what these gurus are selling in
3:27
the marketplace today you see even sex is something that the
3:35
body does not care for it's a painful thing and that is necessary for only one
3:41
purpose to reproduce one line then the living organism is interested only to things it's a survival and then is the
3:48
reproduction so when once the thought is involved in turning sex into pressure we
3:55
have created a problem it is the same thought that makes you feel that you see
4:01
the pleasure you see can be extended into one of degree in two and longer and
4:09
longer time and then you see keep it going and so it is more painful to this body
4:14
you almost sound Victorian in your approach here I'm not I'm not Victoria Lee sex is it totally unrelated to the
4:22
question of enlightenment you see whether it has become fashionable these days for all these people to market sex
4:28
as the means or the stepping stones to enlightenment but actually and factually
4:35
the sex is totally unrelated to what is called enlightenment whether you deny
4:40
yourself sex or indulgence sex it is of no importance to what you are searching
4:46
for but in a culture where you see the denial of sex is maintained as a cynic
4:52
poem or an essential thing for your spiritual goal unfortunately the the
4:59
girls in the marketplace who are selling that enlightenment invented this thing
5:05
called is the tantric experience and used that as a means to achieve your
5:10
spiritual goals right is you the tantric here or abstinence there and what you're saying what are the same they are
5:15
totally unrelated to the question of enlightenment when once you see the question of enlightenment or the demand
5:23
for an Enlightenment is freed from sex totally either as a means to eat or the
5:29
denial of it as a main street we can look at it in a different way and ask the question is there any such thing as
5:37
enlightenment at all we have accepted taken for granted that there is such a
5:42
thing as enlightenment but we never questioned that because when once you question the whole idea of enlightenment
5:49
or is reportedly concept of enlightenment we are questioning the
5:54
teachers we have talked about it and we have invested our tremendous fatal them
6:00
so the the sentiment comes into the picture and we accept that as a gospel
6:06
truth well yes we have this notion of the great sages of antiquity in many
6:11
different cultures have written and talked about higher states of consciousness and at least lighten them and that is true but I am questioning
6:18
the very consciousness itself is there any such thing as consciousness that is
6:23
my question so you become conscious of yourself and the world around you only
6:31
through the help of the knowledge that is given to us by these so-called sages
6:37
saints and saviors of mankind so is it possible for you to be conscious of anything without the help of that
6:44
knowledge so we have the question the very thing that we have taken for
6:50
granted we are very naive and accept it and then you see spend a whole lifetime
6:56
in search of whatever you want to have it enlightenment God realization
7:01
self-realization what in other words you seems as if there's a paradox here because on the one hand our
7:07
consciousness it seems as if it leads us to question the tradition the so-called truths that are handed down to us and
7:14
you're saying but without that tradition without those truths we would have no consciousness you know that is part of
7:19
the structure of our thinking mmm-hmm you see unfortunately the thought has divided itself into two and created you
7:27
see this duality or the neurotic situation for us the whole culture
7:32
teaches us that you should not compete competition is to be eschewing
7:38
ambition is just something which you should not you see have spiritual
7:44
teachings tend to say this is spiritual teachings he is always I mean exactly
7:49
you know that except in capitalism there is this sense of demand that you should be free from ambition you should be free
7:55
from greed you should be free from this that and the other but at the same time
8:00
ambition is absolutely necessary for survival in the society in which we are
8:06
functioning today so it is that that has created the neurotic situation for us we
8:11
want to pleasure and at the same time we know that the pressure is giving us pain
8:18
so the demand for permanence is the basic demand of thought is it is
8:24
interested in in permanence the permanence not of this living
8:30
organism but the permanence of the continuity of thought so the body knows
8:36
in a way that it is permanent you see not in the sense in which we know that
8:42
this is permanent that is not permanent but that knowledge is of a peculiar kind that it knows it is permanent so it is
8:50
not interested in the idea that this is coming to an end one day see so the the
8:58
one that is involved in this pressure moment is the one that is asking the
9:04
question what will happen to this living organism when it dies you see for the
9:09
body there is no such thing as death at all now because it has no way of
9:16
experiencing the fact that it is alive in this moment and that it is dead after
9:21
60 70 80 or hundred years at all are you saying then that the body doesn't die
9:29
but what about the spirit that is the belief this we the self the soul the
9:38
spirit and whatever you want to call it is invented by thought and it is the
9:45
thought that is responsible for experiencing this what we call thought
9:53
because what you call self spirit or soul or whatever you want to call I
9:58
don't want to indulge in the frivolity of the root meaning of the words sincerely you know the Latin word spirit
10:06
is a Latin word they have to do with breathing it generally it means breathing so you have observed UCF but
10:13
an individual stop for breathing and that condition you describe it as depth
10:19
so the fact that you see the breathing stop that you want to know if there is
10:25
anything that will continue after death you see it is that that is interested in demanding to know what will survive this
10:33
condition of the body which is called death I mean I would tend to think that my body will not survive my body will decay
10:40
but perhaps my ability to experience at some level will survive but can you
10:45
experience your body while you are living now see one wants to know
10:51
anything about death he has to find out what is it that is there now and not
10:58
wait until what we call the death takes place so you do you have any way of
11:04
experiencing the fact that you are alive today I say no I see the doctor comes
11:10
and examines you and tells you that this is your blood pressure this is the temperature for your body your heart is
11:17
breathing your blood races so on and so forth so you are alive so you are trying
11:23
to use that knowledge and experience what you call a living being but without
11:31
the help of that knowledge which is passed on to us by observation of all these doctors and experience and tell
11:40
yourself that you are a living being so when once you are freed from me the
11:45
knowledge you have no way of experiencing that you are alive today and there is no question of experiencing
11:51
when you are today well Descartes a great Western philosopher said I think
11:57
therefore I am and you seem to be suggesting that thinking is the opposite
12:02
of of living I think that Descartes I studied the Western philosophy and he
12:10
asked the wrong question and answered it tonight in a very funny way we think I think
12:16
therefore I am but he never asked the question which you should have asked the way the Indian philosophers built if you
12:25
don't think now are you there uh-huh so the the basic question which we have
12:32
to ask is what is thinking and why do we think at all if you don't think there is
12:40
still the question there you see the question is born out of the assumption that there is something there and that
12:50
is why he has come out with this statement I think therefore I am if you don't think where is that I am well
12:57
isn't it true that when we talk of enlightenment the great sages of India have said when you stop thinking you can
13:05
enter into this vast ocean of bliss and that's enlightenment the Blessed seizes
13:11
the Bliss or whatever you want to call it is essential pleasure that we are
13:17
indulgent in they have experience with some extraordinary moment which he
13:22
described it as a bliss and tried to share it with us and that created the
13:28
problem of us all trying to experience the same thing so that is the way the knowledge is passed on from generation
13:35
to generation that is the way you are also experiencing things without knowledge you have no way of
13:42
experiencing anything at all and when once you experience that experience this
13:48
strengthens and fortifies the knowledge so this vicious circle goes on and on
13:54
and on and on and that structure has no way of breaking through that we see
14:00
vicious circle so we accept that knowledge is necessary for us to experience and the experience
14:06
strengthens the knowledge so do we really want you see to find out
14:14
or demand the way out of it you see mm-hmm how is there a way out and there
14:21
is no way out because the question is posed by the thought and by asking this
14:29
question they thought knows that it has no answer so that is the only way it can
14:36
maintain its continuity they say the thought has invented time the thought has invented what is called
14:43
space without the help of the knowledge we have of space and the knowledge we
14:48
have of time there is no time there is no space the scientists may talk and say
14:54
anything they like but they are also saying that there is no such thing as a
14:59
time there is no such thing as a space there is no such thing as matter but
15:05
what is called space-time continuum is there a space I question that is there a
15:10
time the moment we thought is born the time is there so it is that that has
15:17
invented what is called is really timeless and pursuing that timeless and
15:23
it knows that it has no way of putting itself in a timeless state because the
15:29
thought has to be absent in a so called timeless state it is an invention of the
15:34
time to perpetuate itself within the field of time well it sounds like we're
15:40
trapped we are trapped for in the very demand to get out of the trap is reality
15:46
problem so there is no answer to that at all well are you suggesting then that in the
15:52
history of humankind there they've never been enlightened persons no I'm not for
15:58
a moment is saying that there is no such thing as an enlightened being we have plenty of them
16:05
but I questioned the very the demand to
16:12
be enlightened he as I said at the very beginning to me there is no such thing
16:18
as enlightenment at all you see the enlightenment is in the future as I said
16:24
a while ago it is the time that has invented the thing in the future the
16:30
future is always it puts the Enlightenment there so the Enlightenment is part of the knowledge that is passed
16:36
on to us from these great teachers who claim to be enlightened people and it is
16:42
the past that is in operation here projecting into your future a thing
16:47
called enlightenment so first of all is there any such thing as the present I
16:54
say there is no such thing as present there is no such thing as now there is
16:59
no such thing as the moment here because if we say this is the moment this is the
17:07
present this is the now you have already brought into this picture the past in
17:13
the past time is not enlightened so I am going to be enlightened tomorrow but what about now so am i enlightened or I
17:22
am am i not enlightened what is it that tells me that I am enlightened that I am NOT enlightened that I am free and not
17:29
free it is the knowledge that tells me that I am not free that I am NOT
17:35
enlightened so if you are not enlightened now you are going to be enlightened it tomorrow I don't know if
17:41
I make well if there's a paradox here somehow because it I guess it strikes me that if one is really enlightened is
17:47
there's a transcending of space and time so that if one is enlightened it's always there that assuming for a moment
17:55
that there is an enlightened being yes he has no way of telling himself that he
18:00
is an enlightened man and there is no question of his trying to enlighten others I mean as soon as I say I am
18:07
enlightened I've already come back the knowledge about enlightenment passed on to us from generations tells you that
18:15
you are an enlightened man you see so then naturally you want to enlighten
18:20
others so it is a petty little experience which has become possible for me through the help of this thought so
18:28
what I experienced in call and enlightenment is a thought induced experience and not really an
18:34
Enlightenment at all you mean every description of enlightenment is essentially an illusion it's why are we
18:44
concerned about enlightenment at all well it seems like a way out yeah what
18:49
else is there to do there the way out PC so you you you are putting off the
18:55
problem to your future date what I am suggesting is that there are no problems
19:01
at all you see what we are stuck with easy solutions offered to us by the
19:09
people who you think and I think are in the know of things that they have the right solutions for the problems but
19:16
those solutions have not helped us to resolve our problems but somehow we are
19:23
caught up in this field of time and time is a hope you see it tells us that by
19:29
repeating the same thing over and over again you will be able to solve this
19:35
problem so we these solutions have not helped us to solve the problems at all
19:40
we are looking here and there and everywhere to find out somebody who can
19:45
offer us another solution to solve our problems but what one who is interested
19:51
to resolve the problem must be ready to brush aside you see all
19:56
the solutions offered by the Saints the sages and saviours of mankind in the
20:02
past and in the present and yet to be involved in other words to truly be in
20:08
free to truly be enlightened one has to give up every concept of enlightenment or every notion of this tradition that
20:15
we've inherited you you are talking as if the concept and you are two different
20:21
things the the demand for enlightenment and you
20:26
are two different things so there is no way you can separate yourself from the
20:32
concepts and but you just said that's
20:38
essential to do that is essential to do is is a manner of speaking this is a way
20:45
of putting things it's essential when you're impossible at the same time you are not ready to come to terms that
20:52
there is no problem here and that you are stuck with all the solutions offered
20:58
to us by those in room we have absolute confidence faith interest and yet they
21:03
don't work the instrument which we are using is the one that is born out of
21:10
hope this is what you are today is the totality of all your thoughts feelings
21:17
and experiences that instrument is the only instrument we have and it is a very
21:23
powerful instrument that instrument has helped us to achieve whatever we have achieved so far today so we are not
21:31
ready to discard that instrument and at the same time we know that understanding
21:38
through the help of that instrument has not helped us to resolve our problems at
21:43
all and yet we have not given up our confidence tremendous faith in the
21:49
instrument which we have been using to achieve our results so that is really the crux of the
21:54
problem so when once the understanding dawns on you that that is not the
22:00
instrument which will help you to understand and solve your problems and that there is no other instrument the
22:07
demand to solve the problems ceases and instantly so there is no such thing as
22:16
understanding at all how I stumbled into this is something which I have no way of
22:24
knowing which is somehow it dawned on me that the intellect which I have
22:31
developed through sharpening it you see using it has no way of understanding
22:39
anything and at the same time the tremendous faith in that instrument is
22:45
salinity see that that is the only instrument I do not know of any other instrument that's the only instrument that I have and it has not to help me to
22:53
resolve anything to understand anything and somehow it dawned on me that that is
23:00
not the instrument and there is no other instrument so that means it knocks off the whole basis of for any other way of
23:08
trying to understand anything so the whole idea of for intuition goes down
23:14
the drain down the tube why why does intuition go the intuition is nothing
23:20
but a refined sensitized thought if I
23:25
may put it that way so but it is still you see caught up you see in this the
23:31
use of thought to the resolve you see the problems well wouldn't it be better
23:36
at least to have refined sensitive thoughts rather than crude insensitive
23:42
instead what is the difference what is the difference between a crude thought and a sensitive thought well in
23:49
in Western tradition in the 18th century we we had a notion of the Enlightenment which which meant you know being free of
23:55
superstition at least being able to see things as they are where are we free from superstition why
24:01
do we swallow everything that every scientist dishes out every day I say we
24:07
say it is a scientific but it is not so scientific they are as dogmatic as the
24:13
religious people of the bygone days but because what science has given us the
24:19
technology we invest of tremendous faith you see in the scientists every four
24:24
years you see their theories are changing as I said the other day their interest in trying to find out the
24:33
fundamental particle he is searching weighing but they will go on and on and
24:39
on and on and on they're not going to give up for anyway yeah I mean the intellectual effort to solve the mystery
24:46
of the physical universe is in vain he is in way because of the fact that the
24:52
scientist is separating himself from the universe it is a single unit you see the
24:59
nature and men are not two different things as I said before a while ago last time
25:06
that somewhere along you see the evolutionary process this
25:12
self-consciousness occurred in the human species you see but how do you know
25:17
we're not actually separate how do you know that the self-consciousness is not valid you know it is the thought that
25:23
creates the space as I said it's not easy space so let me give you an example
25:30
we have about a minute left if this is in touch with this yes what is it that tells you that this is hard the
25:37
knowledge that is hard is the thought and the thought creates the space
25:43
between the two and tells that this is hard otherwise there is no space between
25:48
the two and there is no way that the sense of touch can tell you that this is hard and not so I mean even
25:55
something as basic as the sense of touch something we take so for granted is
26:00
really just another thought process thought process so taught easy space thought creates space and in that space
26:08
wave function so this space is something which can never never be experienced by
26:14
thought we were trapped in our own thoughts and our thoughts can never really even see themselves it has no way
26:22
of looking at itself you see what you see there the very question is there a
26:28
thought or the interest the demand to look at thought is created by thought so
26:34
what you see there is above thought and not thought itself ug Krishnamurti thank
26:40
you very much for being with me it's been a pleasure thank you and thank you very much for being with us
26:52
[Music]
27:13
hello and welcome I'm Jeffrey Mishlove with UG Krishnamurti and we're continuing our discussion on the nature
27:19
and the mystique of enlightenment ug the the various traditions particularly from
27:27
Asia emphasized meditation as a path to enlightenment and sometimes it's quite specific if you meditate for so many
27:34
years you will be enlightened and and you know there's lineages of enlightened master after enlightened master who
27:40
followed a formula a recipe he almost and seemed to have been then anointed by
27:46
their masters as being enlightened beings Oh all that has gone out of my system so
27:55
what I have stumbled into is something extraordinary for me this is not
28:02
something that is born out of my thinking I am NOT putting across a
28:09
logically a certain premise here and I'm
28:15
not thinking at all there's no thinking involved in what I am saying it it might come as a shock to you if not as a
28:22
surprise that there is nobody who is talking here and this is a puppet here
28:28
and you are pulling me City you are the
28:34
one that is responsible whatever is coming out of me and so if you ask me
28:40
questions about Hinduism the techniques of meditation and what they do I have
28:46
nothing to say on that subject at all I in my own way did everything you say
28:54
that one is asked that I was asked by my teachers followed everything you see
29:02
that is there in the book practiced every kind of meditation and got nowhere
29:08
I discovered that you see it was something in the nature of a violence
29:13
see the goal of meditation is peace there is already peace here
29:20
this is a tremendously peaceful living organism and why in the name of God why
29:26
in the name of enlightenment I am asked to meditate to reach a goal which I
29:33
consider to be a silly goal non existing goal through meditation you see so why
29:39
am i meditating what is this meditation for that was my question basic question so I discovered that you see the goal of
29:48
silence placed before me as a goal to be
29:54
reached through one technique or 100 techniques of meditations
29:59
it doesn't matter is the very one that is disturbing and destroying the silence
30:05
that is already there whereas I discovered that you see the silence that was there is something in
30:12
the nature of a volcano erupting you see so you go and stand before an ocean the
30:18
roar of ocean you're going to in general what you hear see the tremendous sound
30:25
there they you know so that is the silence and through meditation I am
30:30
creating a dead inert state of mind is it is the mind that is involved in what
30:36
is called meditation you see so it is interested in creating a peaceful mind
30:41
we don't realize I'm not talking the saying anything about what the Hindus mean by meditation I'm not interested in
30:50
that you see I'm not here expounding the cause of Hinduism at all you see what I have stumbled into what I have
30:57
discovered is something extraordinary for me so I don't even accept that there
31:03
is such a thing as a meditative state at all we see it is all techniques of
31:08
meditations if I may use a very very crude is a sort of self-abuse you see it gives
31:17
us you see the feeling that we are putting ourselves into a state of silence into a state of darkness what
31:24
you see so if you if you practice one technique you have if you see one you
31:30
have seen them all there is no reason why we should take try on a hundred
31:36
different techniques of meditation but the basic question which one which we have to ask ourselves is why do we
31:43
meditate at all what for it's a very ancient practice it is I cannot defend
31:52
or brush aside the ancient practice I am NOT interested in that at all you see
31:57
the when there is any an idea that is
32:03
given to us that there is such a thing
32:09
as peace of mind is in the silent mind that there is a void DC that you should
32:16
not be occupied with these certain thoughts then you should be preoccupied with another set of thoughts but you are
32:24
always preoccupied with something or the other at low time so you can say that
32:30
you are not occupied with something or the other but all your energy is wasted
32:36
in choosing between two thoughts you see if this thought I want a peaceful thought and the other one is a violent
32:42
thought and there is an actual battle going on between these two thoughts and one thought that you say is a peaceful
32:50
thought and the other thought is a while and thought so what you are stuck with is a battle a war between two things and
32:57
what you experience and call that desire into mind or the experience of a silent
33:03
mind is the peace between two wars and then it starts all over again and you
33:10
constantly battle with you see the idea that you see this meditation or that
33:16
technique of meditation is going to put you into a peaceful state of mind so
33:22
there is no such thing as stay peaceful stateful my soup the idea
33:27
of peacefulness maybe the illusion you described it is the mind the tests that is responsible for the disturbance that
33:34
is there and it has invented uses something called a silent mind and
33:40
battles with their teasing that's all that is there when you attain this
33:46
insight that you're describing to me and yet you say you practice meditation for many many years and this practice of
33:52
meditation had nothing to do with your own insights what I I would go one step
33:57
further and say that what I have stumbled into it is something that has
34:03
happened despite everything I did and how I have stumbled into it is something
34:10
which I have no way of finding out for myself so it is not the mid techniques
34:15
of meditation it is not the denial of sex it is not a practice of control of
34:21
breath you see this is a this is a simple trick that we play with you see
34:27
what you call breath control yes when you carefully look at you see you have
34:34
no way of looking at it you have no way of seeing you and have no way of observing see that is really the problem
34:40
see we we are caught up in this idea that there is somehow there is some way
34:47
that you can observe that you can look at you see and see see but there is no
34:53
way you can separate yourself from the breath you see so you want to separate
34:58
yourself from breath and be aware of who you are breathing and watch it and what
35:04
for so you are not conscious or aware of the fact that you are breathing at this
35:09
moment and why do you want to be conscious or aware of breathing and what
35:15
for to achieve a certain goal what you are actually doing is cutting out the
35:21
flow of oxygen to the brain and that gives you all kinds of very peculiar
35:26
experiences and you dump them as spiritual experiences so when once you
35:32
experience something the mechanism of experiencing structure is that you
35:38
always demands more and more of the same less and less than the other but we seem very hungry for spiritual experiences is
35:46
if we have to collect them like trying the newest drug or the latest guru or the latest tantric method it is no
35:53
different from the way we collect millions is no very different from you see the way we acquire knowledge so you
36:00
see in a area where tremendous importance is given to spiritual
36:05
experiences and not sensual experiences you can you see sell this to somebody
36:12
else you see I have all these spiritual experiences you don't have so I am
36:17
superior to you that is all that is there in this talk about the spiritual
36:23
experiences I know you don't know see so I am questioning the very the foundation
36:31
of knowledge you see knowledge there is no such thing as knowledge for the sake of knowledge knowledge is power I know
36:40
you do not know I am a free man you are not a free man so I have no way of
36:48
knowing that I'm a free man you see if I tell myself that I'm a free man it is the knowledge that is passed
36:54
on to me that tells me that you are a free man you see you know I have no way
37:00
of knowing that I am a free man so when once you are freed from the knowledge of
37:05
all this freedom business and light element business the peace of mind
37:12
business you are no longer interested in finding out whether you are peaceful or
37:17
not peaceful whether there is a silencer there is no silence at all let me shift
37:24
a little bit with you there those who describe the path towards enlightenment
37:29
is bhakti-yoga the path of the heart opening up loving
37:35
sometimes they seem like they get a little bit gushy but it seems to me the emotion it's emotion you see the other
37:43
day I was telling my friend what part do tears play the tears are there only to
37:50
lubricate the eyes they have no other part to play so emotionally see you
37:57
involve yourself in the eyes become dry and then the nature as this is a
38:04
facility to lubricate it in its own way so that you call those tears tears of
38:09
joy but the tears are provided by this organism to protect itself to protect
38:16
its size so it is lubricating the eyes so they are not tears of joy at all so
38:22
when once you see you think the decision a man of great devotion is emotionally
38:29
involved is in this the joy you see of whatever he wants to call it the eyes
38:37
are drying up and then you see the nature is this own way of lubricating and protecting itself and that you say
38:44
it is to yourself joy but let's move beneath the sentimentality of it to talk about for example human communication
38:51
being able for example to recognize oneself in another human being do we
39:00
really do that is it possible for us to establish any relationship the relationship that we
39:07
establish with the other humans human beings is on the basis of what do I get
39:14
out of that relationship you see so mutual gratification is the
39:22
foundation or the basis of all relationships you see so you are not
39:28
satisfied with it the reality of the situation it is so horrible for you to
39:34
think that the basis on which you have established relationship with you the
39:40
other human beings as you put it is it so sordid that you have to superimpose
39:45
on that and call it is his love you see so love implies to and see loving thy
39:54
neighbor as thyself crazy this is so ridiculous so absurd in the name of love
40:00
thy neighbor as thyself we have created so much of horror so much of destruction
40:07
so much of killing is in the name of life thy neighbor as thyself so are you totally cynical when about
40:13
love a cynic is at least you see is sure that his feet are very firmly fixed on
40:20
the ground and it is the way out is easily the cop-out for the other man to call me a cynic because he doesn't want
40:26
to accept the fact that really there is no love between these two individuals what do I get out of this relationship
40:33
if that is denied you will be surprised what is there in the place of what you
40:38
call love is hate if not hate it is apathy indifference towards the other individual we use what I am trying to
40:46
say is that it is just impossible to establish the relationship on any basis
40:52
there is no need for any relationship at all the only relationships we have is in
40:59
the basis what do I get out of this relationship who wants relationship the person who is
41:05
lonely who is lost he wants to fill his emptiness he wants to fill his void and
41:12
he uses to some other individual to help him to fill this void and he uses this
41:17
fine world Cola but aren't we all ultimately in that predicament we all are in that
41:24
predicament where you are not honest enough to admit that we use some other individual to fill this emptiness to
41:32
fill this void and to fill this loneliness so we are using other individuals and for this the fancy label
41:40
it is a loving relationship and you may call me a cynic this area it's all right with me that is the reality of the
41:46
situation so anything that is born out of this relationship is violence well I
41:53
I wouldn't necessarily want to deny that what you described is the sordid foundation of relationships but surely
41:59
they don't just stop at the foundation I would think surely there are the heights to which it relationships can aspire and
42:06
even if it's an unattainable height it may be worth a spiral so we live in that hope and die in that hole why is it not
42:16
possible for us to love the other individual here and now at this moment
42:22
why does it have to be tomorrow see tomorrow means you are pushing what you
42:30
can do today that's why I say you people call me a cynic food people call me a pessimist people call me a legalist
42:37
people call me this that and the other and what they do not real I'm not blaming them I'm just pointing out that
42:44
when they use these terms as a cop-out they use this too when they use this i
42:52
point out that it is what you believe is the solution for even problems he is the
42:59
one that is responsible for evil frustration what I am suggesting is a very positive thing he'll and you call
43:06
this a negative thing because you want this action to occur only there and not
43:12
now I don't know if I make myself clear if you're only interested in all actions
43:19
to happen only in the future and not now so you are not acting at all you see the
43:26
action has got to be now and why is it not possible for us to be
43:31
kind to be honest to be loving to be whatever you want to be now and why does
43:39
it have to be tomorrow or you see day after tomorrow why is my question see you are pushing
43:48
it off something that you can do now and you don't want to act now we see that
43:54
action is something which will destroy there's a solid relationship to you have
43:59
a stay I'm not saying that you means you but I'm here with you right now
44:04
yes that we establish you see this is not the relationship and cover it up by
44:10
saying that's a loving relationship this brotherly relationship this that and the other the action implies freeing
44:18
yourself from this distorted reality and create you see if there is any other
44:25
relationship of possible outside of the field of whatever you call our brother
44:30
old understanding in soon that is too much for us so it is very convenient for
44:36
us not to act not to action means this relationship comes to an end what will
44:43
be in its place is something you will not know I would not know nobody knows
44:50
earlier I mean you told me that but there was nobody there
44:55
nobody had they're just words all works works first books how do you ready to
45:02
accept that I have a hard time I think I'm talking to a human being
45:09
I don't know if there is anybody who is talking
45:14
what is it the time say you see I have to bring this the functioning of the
45:21
body your body my body everybody's body into the present context see these
45:29
sensors are all independent there is no coordination except when there is a need
45:36
for cooperation and the cooperation between one two three or all the five
45:42
senses he is decided by the situation in which you find yourself and the
45:48
situation demands the coordination of one two three or all the senses and so
45:56
they are all independent models what I am trying to emphasize now and always in
46:02
put across is that this body is only
46:08
interested you see in response to the stimuli the statement then this is
46:16
responding to this stimulus is also a questionable thing because you have no
46:22
way of experiencing except through the help of the knowledge that is given to us that this particular response is the
46:29
response to a particular sensation otherwise the response to the stimulus
46:36
and the stimulus and the response to that stimulus is a unitary moment and you have no way of separating so as a
46:43
matter of fact the eyes are looking at one thing the listening mechanism is
46:49
listening to something and the sense of touch is is involved in the sense of touch so all these are all independent
46:56
activities there is no way that you can create the totality of your body here
47:03
and sit here and experience the totality of the body what you experience there
47:09
and tell you what self and tell me as the totality of your body is born out of
47:15
your imagination you see so if you want to experience civil body here the only way you can
47:25
experience it is through the help of this sensory activity the eyes are
47:31
looking at it the this sense of looking does not tell me that you see it is you
47:39
see a body and that it is missing dr. fish laughs that is sitting there it
47:45
does not say anything you say about your body except that it is reflecting the body on the retina yes the light that
47:53
falls on you activates this optic nerves and the optic nerves throw the image on
48:00
the retina and it does not say that it is a man that it is a human being that
48:05
it is doctor Mushaf it doesn't say anything except the reflection of the
48:11
object on the retina and in this process the activity of the optic nerves also
48:19
activate the neurons there in your brain which we call memory and tells you that
48:27
you see that you are a man and not a woman that you are a human being and not an animal and so on and so forth but
48:33
these perceptions are so quick that there is no need for the memory to come
48:39
into operation and capture you can say that you are a man I don't know if they make me sleep well I don't know if
48:45
you're describing an organic process or a mechanical process I am only talking describing the organic process which is
48:53
not different from the mechanical process we are not ready to accept the fact that that is only a robot there a
49:01
mechanical thing a computer with an extraordinary intelligence of its own and the acquired intellect which we are
49:09
so proud of is no match to that so as I said but even the idea of a computer or
49:14
a robot is also just a thought just an idea for us it is but I have to use the word computer to give you a feel about
49:22
you see the idea that we have that there is something more
49:28
you see there there is a spirit there is a soul there is a psyche that there is a mind and so on and so here what you're
49:35
doing in effect is denying that there's that there is a spiritual nature I is an
49:42
invention of thought within the realm of thought in the realm of thought the
49:50
thought has created the materialistic values and spiritual values that thought
49:55
is the creation of what society culture or whatever you well you may would it be
50:02
fair I'll say then our spiritual nature does exist within the realm of thought what I am suggesting is that this
50:08
spiritual goal and the demand to achieve your spiritual goals are also
50:14
materialistic in their nature yes because the instrument which you are
50:19
using is thought which is matter you see so you just say that it is a spiritual
50:26
goal and that spiritual values are higher than the materialistic goals and
50:31
the materialistic values but the instrument which you are using to achieve your spiritual goals are also
50:38
materialistic in their nature well it's I would think it's debatable whether thought is matter
50:44
I don't really know yeah it is debatable when you consider thought or think of
50:53
thought as as a thought you see as matter or not matter but he is there a
50:59
thought the question itself is absurd and ridiculous because of the assumption or
51:07
we assume that there is such a thing as thought so if you want to find out for yourself and by yourself is there a
51:14
thought the question itself is absurd because of the assumption that there is such a thought and what you find is all
51:21
about thought but not thought see I don't know if I make myself well that's a very subtle easy you have to do that
51:30
with me all right you see do you think that there is a thought there what is there is only the question do you think
51:38
but is it there a thought that all that's there but there is no other thought other than this question is
51:44
there a thought or do you think that there is a thought thought is this thought is that thought is not this
51:50
thought is matter thought is not matter thought is a space that is not space thought is time not a time that's all we
51:56
can indulge in this probability of arguing and debating for hours and hours and hours but we don't get anywhere
52:02
because what we are indulging meaning is nothing but our dialectical thinking about thinking itself well this helps us
52:10
to sharpen that instrument yes and carry on this discussion on and on and on well
52:18
is it like masturbation I used a very refined word a dialectical thinking
52:25
about thinking it's mm-hm if you want to use that word I am ready to go along with it you seem to be
52:34
suggesting that it doesn't we get nowhere it's like a dog chasing its tail on tail its own tail
52:42
TSR I would put it in a different way you are trying to overtake your own
52:47
shadow but you really don't know or
52:53
don't realize don't want to know and ask this question what is it that is casting
52:59
the shadow it's the light there without that there is no shadow there so instead
53:04
of questioning the shadow itself the materiality of the shadow for some
53:11
reason you want to overtake the shadow you are not going to succeed well let's let's talk more about the light maybe
53:18
later when I use the word light I don't mean any divine light or spiritual light the light that is there without that
53:25
life I see nothing here if I see anything it is only the product of my
53:30
imagination so to be able to see you I need the light see so the thought is not
53:39
is here self-generated one it is generated by the stimulus of the light
53:45
so that light stimulates as I said an while ago and brings the thought into
53:51
operation and tells me that you see that is a camera and that you are a man
53:57
that's the call and so on and so forth this is a microphone so what is so
54:03
marvelous about you see this naming and recognition that's all that we are indulging in the frivolity of naming and
54:12
recognizing things so if you do not know a thing about what is going on outside
54:20
and what is going on inside you as you know yourself or you as you experience
54:25
yourself is coming to an end that is the situation which you are not
54:31
ready to face up to so you keep on this dialogue with yourself the communication
54:38
with yourself and tell yourself all the time that I am this that I am NOT that
54:44
that I am happy that I am NOT unhappy that I am bored that I am not bored and
54:49
so on and so forth but actually there is no difference between the outside and
54:54
the inside so why do you have to constantly carry on this dialogue this
55:02
conversation with yourself would be to maintain the continuity of your thought
55:07
as rather than to face annihilation we you are projecting a situation called
55:14
annihilation there may not be any inhalation at all because when once the
55:19
thought is not there then once you are not there you the product of all the
55:25
experiences and thoughts when you are not there you are no way of finding out
55:30
what you are left with and you wouldn't call it an annihilation at all you are not there anymore so you have no
55:38
separate independent existence of your own so you are part of the totality of
55:44
things your you and the nature is one single unit now ug you seem to be
55:51
suggesting that there's just a little hair maybe separating all of us from
55:57
enlightenment and that hair is our fear of annihilation the fear you are talking
56:03
about have you ever experienced fear at any
56:10
time because you see of what is fear after all where is that fear what is
56:16
fear the fear of something coming to an end the fear of you as you know you will
56:23
sell you as you experience yourself coming to anything so you do not want
56:28
the fear to contain it if the fear comes to an end you will drop dead here
56:35
physical clinical death will shake bases here it is not in your interest to ask
56:41
demand the fear to containment so you play with that you see fear so
56:47
you don't condemn it don't identify yourself with fear don't do this you see you become one
56:54
with the fear you become choicelessly aware you live with the fear you see all these techniques all the therapeutic
57:02
cults that have come into the marketplace each one trying to sell his
57:08
own particular theory is only perpetuating this the fear and not trying to help you to free yourself from
57:15
fear because it is something which you do not want to free yourself from and it
57:22
is not in your interest that the fear should come to an end so you do not want the fear to continue do you experience
57:30
fear now the fear there is nothing there to come to an end at all probably if you see a Cobra there I am NOT an innocent
57:37
child you see you step back so then you see the fear that you see
57:45
the it will kill you or it will come some kill somebody else is absent there then you take a walk
57:52
with a cobra and sing songs with the Cobra and you will be surprised what a delightful creation what a marvelous
57:59
piece of creation that Cobra is and you will never hurt that because hurting
58:05
that is hurting yourself killing that Cobra is killing yourself and what gives
58:10
you this situation where you are so ruthless and wipe out all these living
58:16
organisms is the idea that you are superior and that the whole thing is
58:21
created for your use and that is why we have created this problem you I'm
58:27
talking all the time right well you were quoted once in a magazine article and in India is saying that you thought perhaps
58:34
a cabbage was more alive than a human being you see do you know that you are alive I
58:43
guess you have a knowledge of that you have no way of experiencing the living
58:49
quality of that not that I know or that I experience that I am a superior being the demand to experience something
58:56
living is impossible for the dead structure the thought is dead it is not
59:01
a living thing what gives you the illusion is that you see we are trying to enlist thought with life and we
59:09
imagine that it is a living thing but actually it is a dead thing we see it is not is dead so a dead thing cannot
59:17
capture something living if by accident you step on a live wire you're dead
59:23
you're finished you see only by accident you can step on you see touch life at a
59:28
point where nobody touched before and and so you see the then from that moment
59:34
onwards what is living there expresses itself without the use of thought so in
59:40
that sense I say you will be more useful to nature dead than alive because you
59:46
are living in the world of ideas you are living in the world of thoughts you are putting
59:52
idea scintilla stomach and you are wearing their names so you are not
59:58
living at all it's as if you're saying that our ideas are like our clothing like our hair or fingernails they're not
1:00:04
living tissue now they are not living at all they are all dead ideas passed down to by somebody who has come out with
1:00:10
these fantasies and ideas you know I watch many of your commercials here I'm
1:00:16
not plugging in any particular thing but it is something extraordinary see something extraordinary because I they
1:00:23
cannot sell anything to me you know but I am NOT interested in the products they
1:00:28
are selling and the way they are selling this is something extraordinary I'm always fascinated by these commercials
1:00:34
not by the programs they put me to sleep so I have become wake when I see a commercial I never buy anything that
1:00:41
they are selling see if they have you see viewers like me I see clients like me they would be out of business but you
1:00:48
see here there is one who is admiring the way they are selling music yes the products that always fascinates me
1:00:55
because of water what is that fascinate me the sales pitch the same stalk you see now they
1:01:01
have all taken over the the religious teachers you see they were selling all these products to us now Madison Avenue
1:01:08
has taken over I'm not closing in for Madison Avenue at all you see there'd be a better job than all these holy men who
1:01:14
are selling us a shoddy piece of spiritual goods what do you think there are any holy man any Saints any teachers
1:01:22
anywhere worth listening to I wouldn't go to anybody because I do
1:01:28
not want anything from anyone so there is any other holy man it is not
1:01:34
my concern it is not my interest what about the notion of I'm not interested
1:01:40
in freeing anybody from anybody you know what they are interested in is some sort
1:01:48
of a drug to put them to sleep I am Telling then all the time look here you
1:01:54
are awake this awakened assist something which you do not want so you want to put
1:01:59
yourself to sleep and so all these techniques of meditation the techniques of yoga the techniques of breathing God
1:02:07
knows how many techniques the people in this country have come up with they are
1:02:13
all putting you to sleep because why you don't want to stay awake you are already awake so the whole idea of bringing
1:02:23
about this awakening you is is so so funny and so foolish and so idiotic that we all fall for this and by all
1:02:31
those things and try to awaken ourselves actually we are pulling ourselves to
1:02:36
sleep because this awakening is something that we don't want ug in my
1:02:42
lifetime I grew up in a small town in the middle of the Midwest of the United States and I had a feeling then and in
1:02:50
my youth that there was a slumber there that people were locked into their attitudes and into their values and into
1:02:56
their lifestyle and that I needed to to leave where did you get all those things from they brainwashed us they've made us
1:03:04
to believe that you see we have been fed that kind of a bunk for centuries if
1:03:11
they would died for to be changed we would all die of starvation so you are
1:03:16
only replacing those things you see if it's something from outside that is what
1:03:22
I am NOT opposed to that what it's me is why do you have to import all these
1:03:28
things from outside if religion is all that you are interested in what is it that you don't find in your
1:03:36
Bible what is it that you don't find in your Talmud why do you have to import all those people from outside who are
1:03:43
selling you some shoddy piece of spiritual goals what is wrong with your hymns I'm not for a moment saying go
1:03:49
back to Christ or back to her church or any such and there is no question of
1:03:55
going back you see so anybody who says revived go back is one who cannot offer
1:04:04
us anything you see you know it's y'all the world people in our families they
1:04:09
always talk about their past because they have no future to think about or
1:04:15
talking about they always talk about the past any nation any individual any
1:04:20
teacher who wants to revive the dead past he's already dead because he has nothing new to offer why do we have to
1:04:27
go back why do you make it impossible for you for somebody something new to
1:04:32
come up there and somebody asked me a question all these youth and people are lost they
1:04:39
don't know what to do with us you have made a mess of your life already and you are going to pass on what he has not
1:04:46
helped you to the younger generation if they make a mess of the world let them make a mess of the world they are going to learn it is their world you tell
1:04:54
everybody we are all here we are interested the world is the future for the future generations
1:04:59
they don't let these future generations living here now to have a say in this
1:05:05
matter it is for them to decide their future and we have nothing to do with it what has not helped us is not going to
1:05:13
help anybody all the lies all the beliefs they have not helped put us why want to pass them on to them if they
1:05:19
make a mess of the whole world is you let them make a mess of the world we have made a mess of the whole world we are we have no reason to be proud of
1:05:25
what we have created but let me just
1:05:31
have you shift a little bit you know you are an enigma
1:05:36
you've been described as a guru you deny it you've been described as a philosopher you deny that people want to
1:05:45
attribute the qualities of enlightenment to you you deny that but one characteristic which you have accepted
1:05:51
is that you're a world traveler I'm tonight that I haven't night I don't
1:05:57
know it is not because I'm Restless or anything ever since I was fourteen I
1:06:03
have never lived in any place for six months at a stretch I have seen
1:06:08
practically every part of the globe except some Pacific and Caribbean islands and China but there was a time
1:06:18
when I wanted to tell myself you see I have been there just don't talk about it you were visits to the Greece the glory
1:06:28
of the Greece and the grandeur of the Rome the splendor of this country I have also been there I spent only three hours
1:06:34
in the pyramids there that was enough for me I can kill myself until
1:06:39
everything I have been there I have never been interested in any anything past anything dead then that was my
1:06:46
problem I was hungry wanting to find out for myself and by myself see this the
1:06:55
question of enlightenment offices should be if I may use that word nothing else interested me I was lucky enough to be
1:07:02
born in a very wealthy family was born with a silver spoon in my mouth and so
1:07:07
many silver phones came along my way so that made it easy for me to pursue
1:07:14
and and I tried so hard I I looked
1:07:19
everywhere nobody satisfied me see nobody satisfied my hunger to find out the answer is
1:07:26
there any such thing as enlightenment was binoy an enlightened man is that man
1:07:31
who claims to be an enlightened man is he's an enlightened what is it that he has I don't have whatever he is telling
1:07:38
me is false and it is falsifying me be selfless what the hell do you want me to
1:07:44
be selfless I am a selfish being to the very core of me and you want me to be
1:07:50
selfless you see it is that we see the idea of selflessness that has turned me into your selfless man you are telling
1:07:58
me that I should be free from anger why should I be free from anger anger is a tremendous outburst of energy you are
1:08:07
not dealing with the anger there you are not dealing with pleasure you are not dealing anything that you see that is
1:08:13
happening there inside of me I am interested in finding out whatever is
1:08:18
there inside of me cannot be false whatever you are telling me is false but somehow I didn't have this certainty to
1:08:27
brush the whole thing aside maybe that fellow knows what he is talking about maybe he has something which I don't
1:08:34
have nothing satisfied my hunger you see so then they say they give you a small
1:08:40
piece of bread you see and then they the brown bread you see the stone brown bread nothing satisfied so what happened
1:08:47
is the hunger burnt itself off you see the the freedom that I wanted is in the
1:08:54
very demand to be free he's not there anymore it's not that I have found the
1:09:00
answer for that see there is no self to realize I have spent 14 nine years of my
1:09:07
life searching for this self it is not there one day so they can all go he sees
1:09:13
now this certainty that I have all that is false it is it does not mean that I
1:09:18
feel superior and place myself and a higher pedestal and tell myself you are
1:09:24
the most superior of all that I not for a moment that is false and I do not want that to
1:09:30
falsify me this certainty I have stumbled into it's something which cannot be transmitted with somebody you
1:09:37
say you stumbled into it and you say it has nothing to do with this intense watching nothing you see the intensity
1:09:43
is an emotional thing the the insights I had through these encounters with others
1:09:49
strengthened different what to fight the very thing that I was trying to free myself from it did not help me anyway so
1:09:56
nothing I did helping me so I have to use the word stumbled into because I
1:10:02
don't know how I this dawned on me that there is nothing to understand you see
1:10:09
that is not the instrument and there is no other instrument there is nothing to understand well would you have done just
1:10:15
as well to have remained in that design that is a hypothetical question you see I must admit that my contact in the West
1:10:23
to open do you see great horizons for me mm-hmm and unfortunately I studied both
1:10:29
eastern and western philosophies thoroughly for my master's degree and psychology but nothing helped with me
1:10:36
because this question the basic question is there any such thing as mind why you are talking of silent mind why you are
1:10:43
talking of for the mutation of mind there is no such thing as mutation of mind there is nothing there to be
1:10:50
transformed there is nothing there to be changed so why this talk of transformation radical or otherwise all
1:10:57
that is absolutely embarrassed absolute rubbish poppycock I say to myself but yet you see I lacked releases
1:11:03
certainty so how I stumbled into it how it happened why it happened when it
1:11:09
happened has anything happened to me I really don't know so whatever I am trying to put across is all an
1:11:16
expression of what I stumbled into if I can't sit here and give a talk you see
1:11:22
on the same subject like anybody else so I go one step further and say that
1:11:28
you see despite everything whatever happened to him happened has
1:11:34
happened to me and it is possible for a rapist a murderer or a con man thief man to
1:11:42
stumble into this kind of a thing more than you see all those spiritual
1:11:49
aspirants together it seems very ironic ironic but nevertheless the fact does
1:11:55
remind so so in a sense anybody who might be viewing this program right now
1:12:01
with the idea that they're going to get anything out of it whatsoever to help them along in the path of enlightenment
1:12:06
so if they are interested in solving there's personal problems there are umpteen number of techniques they have
1:12:13
to go there so this is something which cannot use to
1:12:18
solve the day-to-day problem ceases I have no illusions that this will be or
1:12:25
it can be of any help to anybody to solve their day-to-day problems because they are not really interested in
1:12:31
solving the problems they are not interested in in freeing themself from fear you know so all these techniques be
1:12:38
one with fear live with fear except fear be choicelessly aware of fear this is
1:12:44
all you see taking you away from the fact of facing up to the situation that
1:12:49
there is no where you can free yourself from here I'm not for a moment suggesting that you should live with
1:12:54
fear what is there what you call you is born out of fear it thrives in fear it
1:13:02
lives in fear so it cannot voluntarily liquidate itself free itself of fear so
1:13:09
it has no solutions for the day-to-day problems of the people it has no
1:13:15
solution for the problems of the world it has no social mountain but you know it just seems as if the pattern of your
1:13:21
life as I look at it does fit perhaps a classical pattern and it's the pattern of struggling of agonizing of really
1:13:28
pushing yourself on the path and reaching a point of despair of frustration and then giving up then
1:13:34
letting go now you see the despair is the solution you see we are not dealing with the
1:13:41
despair at all so we are not dealing with anger we are not dealing with greed
1:13:47
there is no point in giving discourses on greed or how to be free from greed or how to be free from pleasure how to be
1:13:55
free from despair because despair is something which you cannot separate yourself from you are dealing with how
1:14:03
to be free from despair but not despair itself you see so the answer to your
1:14:09
despair is in despair itself and not in how to be free from despair so you are
1:14:15
only thinking about despair and not doing anything with that applies to all
1:14:22
the things that we are trying to be free free in other words rather than vainly
1:14:27
seeking for enlightenment or seeking for love or are seeking for all of these beautiful concepts that we have you're
1:14:34
suggesting that we just grab reality by the teeth so to speak and all of its
1:14:39
sordidness and it is not a question of act grabbing it is not a question of
1:14:44
capturing it containing it and giving expression to it but that reality that
1:14:50
is already there has to express itself in its own way how it will express
1:14:55
itself you wouldn't know I would there is nothing to be done about it
1:15:00
whatever you we are doing is the one that is preventing something living that
1:15:07
is there to express itself so no two human individuals no two human beings
1:15:12
are the same the culture is interested in fitting everybody into a common mode
1:15:18
see if you look at the leaves you see I was a student of botany I studied the leaves you see in a microscope no two
1:15:25
leaves are the same no two human beings are the same now they are doing tremendous amount of research now they
1:15:32
are beginning to realize their motivation is to track down criminals not to understand the functioning of the
1:15:38
human body they know now in a way you see that no two human bodies understand
1:15:43
your hair you see if it is dissolved into the constituent elements
1:15:49
you will be surprised that your hair is quite different from my hair and now they have come out with you see the the
1:15:55
peculiar statement that women have more gold in the hair than men more gold more gold and then I don't know but I can't
1:16:02
make any definitive statements about it no two human bodies are the same no two
1:16:08
human individuals are we see the demand of the culture the society or whatever
1:16:13
you want to call it to fit all of them in a common mold and produces even the
1:16:19
same kind of people is not going to succeed in the longer probably we may not live long to achieve our goals who
1:16:27
knows I don't know so this is must be one of the dangers than a spiritual traditions it is not that that will help
1:16:34
us they say what will help us to live together peacefully
1:16:41
music terror not love thy neighbor services they sell because if you try to
1:16:47
destroy your enemy you will go with him if you hurt you or any physical e it can
1:16:52
hurt you not psychologically not emotionally not romantically not politically if you step on the toes of
1:16:59
somebody you see he is going to step on your toes that we have in your way
1:17:05
understood in the international field in relationship in the superpowers you see you can no longer talk in terms of
1:17:12
massive retaliation you have to live with your adversaries you have to live with your enemies you have to leave it
1:17:20
you see and the one who is trying you see to her to you but then probably we will understand that you see if you try
1:17:26
to destroy your neighbor you are going to destroy yourself maybe that will help
1:17:31
us to live together in peace but not know their neighbour as thyself
1:17:37
getting a tuck well you sound sort of like the 18th century British philosophers like John Locke and Thomas
1:17:44
Hobbes who talked about the social contract and humanity is being a loaf and a dragon inside and that we had to
1:17:52
face this sort of evil quality you are talking as if humanity is out there you
1:17:58
see the demand for permanence of society Humanity is the demand for permanence
1:18:04
here what I am saying is that there is no such thing as permanence the demand
1:18:10
for permanence is the cause of man's misery the demand for permanence in
1:18:16
relationship the demand for permanence of happiness the demand for permanent
1:18:21
pleasure is the cause of man's misery so since you know in a way that you as you
1:18:27
know yourself and you as you experience our surface coming to an end as an idea
1:18:34
you know that one day you are going to die but not as a fact we see not as a reality but as this an idea that you are
1:18:43
also going to die like you see all those who died before so you project the
1:18:48
demand for permanence on mankind that mankind must be permanent must be there
1:18:54
and you should do everything possible to see that humanity survives that is born
1:18:59
out of the demand for permanence so we are not going to succeed in the long run because there is no such thing as
1:19:06
permanence in any relationships so in any demands that we are interested in
1:19:13
maintaining the permanence yuuji we have only about five minutes nothing but a semi time I don't want to do that yet I
1:19:20
want I want to get into something a little more personal so now that you
1:19:25
told me once about yourself that you had experienced physical death you see yesterday there was one lady who
1:19:34
visited me and asked me a question I want to live
1:19:39
in this moment passionately that was a
1:19:44
question yes I said you have to be dead now you can't live unless you go through
1:19:54
this process not dying to your poetic romantic yesterday's or psychological
1:20:01
death but the totality of man's thoughts experiences and feelings that are passed
1:20:08
down first from generation to generation then what is left there begins to
1:20:13
express itself from that moment onward you have no existence of your own separate independent existence of your
1:20:20
own at all so you're part of the totality of things from then on this is
1:20:27
a single unit the nature and you are not separate but when I make such statements it is not that I myself can experience
1:20:35
you can't experience the the the totality or the single Ness of nature
1:20:42
and you but the demand to experience is not there anymore
1:20:50
so in other words there is no such thing as in-depth at all what is there in the
1:20:56
fear of something coming to an end what is it that will come to an end
1:21:03
the fear of something coming to an end what is there that will come to an end there is nothing there there is no
1:21:09
entity there now what do you think will come to an end the demand to maintain
1:21:15
the demand for permanence of something that is not there coming to an end
1:21:20
can be described as death you see the condition of the body huh we use the
1:21:27
word and call it a dead body because it is not responding to the stimuli the way
1:21:32
we think the living body is responding to the stimuli but you you Verster who do not know that you are responding to
1:21:40
the stimuli you say that I am talking that I am full of animation that I am
1:21:45
coming out with all these concepts I have no way of knowing whether I am saying anything here what is all this
1:21:51
noise coming out it's just a noise you seem to make some sense out of it and it
1:21:57
is good otherwise we can't function sanely and intelligently in this we have to accept the reality of things as it is
1:22:06
as they are imposed on us otherwise we will all end up in a loony bin singing Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies we have
1:22:13
to accept the reality of the world as functional in their value but the moment
1:22:18
you try to understand the reality of anything let all the ultimate reality you are lost forever well you seem to be
1:22:25
suggesting a pragmatic approach to life and letting go of these philosophical abstractions except as is games for the
1:22:34
sharpening of the intellect that saw that is the part that philosophy placed in
1:22:40
our life to sharpen that instrument you see so you are not interested in
1:22:46
accepting the fact that there is no foundation for your logical thinking
1:22:51
there is no foundation for your rationality whoever said that man is a
1:22:56
rational being deluded himself and deluded us all our actions do not show
1:23:02
any rationality any logic ality in our function I don't know if there is any
1:23:08
such word as logically we don't see logic in our lives we don't see that our
1:23:13
life's our own run on logic well Yugi
1:23:18
we're just about out of time and I'm in the paradoxical position of saying how much I've enjoyed being with you and in
1:23:27
a sense I say that and I know that you probably you may be thinking to yourself there's nothing to enjoy no I'll just
1:23:35
tell you thank you very much indeed okay and thank you thank you with me thank
1:23:41
you I don't know we're talking really what if you put it on paper or if you
1:23:47
try to listen to that it won't make any sense this my idea is not ideally if there is
1:23:54
a purpose or if there is any motivation in these dialogues it is only to leave
1:24:00
the other individual with this enigma the paradox and he has to resolve the
1:24:07
problem for himself and by it thank you for sharing the paradox with
1:24:13
us
