2020/10/24

Religious Society of Friends posts from a fundamentalist and conservative point of reference.


Religious Society of Friends


Kenn Orphan




https://www.facebook.com/groups/2204496464/permalink/10158588428211465/

 

I joined this group a long time ago as a place to explore my own Quaker thought, practice and experience and connect with other likeminded people. I actually left organized Friends meetings years ago, but it remains a part of my spirituality.
But over time, and more recently, I have seen more and more posts in this group that are from a fundamentalist and conservative point of reference. A point of reference that excludes certain people whether they be feminist or queer. Everyone is entitled to follow their path and express themselves, but there should also be safe places for people who have been historically marginalized.
I thought about leaving the group. But before I do that I will begin to block people here that I feel are imparting a divisive or disruptive experience. I will see if this works, but if there are more and more posts I will have to leave.
This is not about freedom of expression or speech. It isn't about creating an echo chamber. I have plenty of sources for these perspectives. It is about acknowledging a troubling trend in this group and taking action to protect myself from individuals who devalue my or others humanity or who have simply come here just to proselytize to others.
Sorry for the long post, I just had to get it off my chest.
You, Peri Coleman and 81 others
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  • David O'Donaghue
    yes, my sentiments exactly. This is a place for specific Quaker experiences and thought NOT for fundamentalism or other church's theology. I left all that. good riddance.
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  • Ludwig Bon Quirog
    Omg saaaame. I just breathe deeply whenever I see such posts. Then I block them. Haha! It has worked so far.
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  • Morgan Murray
    I'm not sure what has set you off, but I have been fortunate to benefit from listening to many perspectives, most of which I do not agree with, yet have helped me reflect on my own spiritual journey.
    They are sometimes uncomfortable to listen to, but much growth comes from a place of discomfort.
    One of the parts of being a Quaker I appreciate the most is that I am forced out of my complacency. It's not an easy ride, but a constant challenge.
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    • Kenn Orphan
      Morgan Murray
       I get enough of that from other places. And I do not need to be challenged on the value of my humanity. I saw this group as a safe place. If it ceases to be one, I will leave.
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    • Laurel Beyer
      Morgan Murray
       i think there is a difference between listening to many perspectives and being subjected to words which are intolerant and degrading
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    • Morgan Murray
      Kenn Orphan
       I did not say that you 'needed to be challenged on the value of your humanity.' It appears that you are looking for a fight.
      I appreciate diversity and the challenge to complacency.
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    • Kenn Orphan
      Morgan, it appears you are projecting. I am not looking for a fight. I stated in the original post: "I have seen more and more posts in this group that are from a fundamentalist and conservative point of reference. A point of reference that excludes certain people whether they be feminist or queer. Everyone is entitled to follow their path and express themselves, but there should also be safe places for people who have been historically marginalized."
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    • Kevin Evitts
      What I see here so often is “ devaluation “ of conservatives. Conservatives don’t post here.
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    • Kenn Orphan
      Kevin Evitts
       I have seen several conservative and fundamentalist posts. One of them posts almost daily, so I am not sure where you are looking.
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    • Muriel Strand
      i suspect the only really safe place is inside one's own head... and even there one may find one's own unwelcome worries.
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  • William Henry
    This Friend speaks my mind.
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  • David H. Albert
    If folks have experience of Jesus, or Buddha, or Moses, or Mohammad, or the Spaghetti Monster, I don't need or appreciate references to their books; I want to know how.
    Perhaps if there was a moratorium on scripture-citing, then I might at least know what people are experiencing.
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  • Emilia Posada Samper
    I understand. I am a member of an unprogrammed Meeting and currently live in Colombia..a Catholic and conservative country.⁶My thoughts an feelings about judgement and differences is that Equality should cover us all. Male female, black white brown, hetrosexual and homosexual.Equality is an important testimony and I believe it implies full acceptance of one another. Living in this environment makes me appreciate Quaker values even more. Tolerance
    can be stressful but so far just
    being myself is what seems to work.
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  • Mark L Grantham
    For me it is important to remember that there are varied beliefs within Quakerism. I am an Unprogrammed Quaker, my family have been so, probably since they were created. I personally don't have room for Fundamentalism and other conservative mentalities. I do need to remember that the fastest growing group of Quakers are in Kenya, and that branch, FUM, has a very different outlook than what Unprogrammed Quakers possess.
    This will sound very judgmental, but, in my eyes, the Quakers in Kenya and in FUM are about as much a Quaker as Methodists or Pentacostals.
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    • Bill Smith
      Mark L Grantham
       except American Methodists and non-American Methodists are struggling with this very issue. Inclusiveness.
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    • Mark L Grantham
      Bill Smith
       i hadn't thought of that. I have a fundamental Quaker friend that was asking me about this and that, in relation to liturgy and dogma. I tried to explain it as succinctly as I could, that Unprogrammed Quaker Meetings don't have either of those things
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    • Bill Smith
      Mark L Grantham
       it’s continuing to be a subject for organized religion everywhere.
      Pope endorses civil union laws for same-sex couples — CNN
      APPLE.NEWS
      Pope endorses civil union laws for same-sex couples — CNN
      Pope endorses civil union laws for same-sex couples — CNN
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    • Mark L Grantham
      Bill Smith
       it's about time
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    • Bill Smith
      Wonder if anything really changes in the Catholic Church?
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    • Beth Adcock
      Mark L Grantham That was part of the point of Quakerism at its origin: that we don't do liturgy or dogma.
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    • Muriel Edgerton
      Mark L Grantham
       statistically, FUM and EFA (Evangelical FRIENDS) out number us Unprogrammed Friends. I’m not sure that claiming who are and who are not REAL Quakers is helpful. I find that following the Light that is given to ME and the community with whom I worship is about all I can manage.
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    • Mark L Grantham
      Muriel Edgerton
       I was simply following my heart. I feel that the name Quaker has been hijacked, people see that name, and think about situation X in a very different way
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    • David H. Albert
      Muriel Edgerton
       I would note that, to me, the most exciting and awe-inspiring Friends Meeting in the world today is Bulungi Tree Shade Friends Meeting in eastern Uganda. It is welcoming and affirming, unprogrammed, and about a third of their membership of more than 75 (and 40 children) is LGBTQ, including their co-clerk being transgender. They've been going through tough times: two members murdered - including the head of a new worship group, 8 members arrested and tortured for four days by the police, many (both LGBTQ and straight) beaten, and 38 members fled. They meet in secret. They have 19 children who have been trafficked under their care. They use North Pacific Yearly Meeting's Faith and Practice.
      Friends World Committee will not even acknowledge their existence, so don't be so quick to assume racism and homophobia don't exist about liberal Friends in western countries.
      As far as I am aware, all of the Kenya FUM churches have LGBTQ members in the closet (and a very few open.) They are anathema to the leadership, but don't assume they don't exist.
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    • Geoff Knowlton
      Muriel Edgerton
       it only means that the majority is not always right.
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    • Muriel Edgerton
      I’m not making ANY assumptions about ANY Quaker group. I DO assume that Divine Spirit Works through any and all of us individuals and communities who open ourselves up to it and are willing/ABLE to discern right action. It’s not an easy practice, and requires humility and diligence, patience and forbearance with our imperfections and flaws.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Many Friends think that a Quakerism not centered on Jesus is as Quaker is New Age or animism. A lot depends on where you sit. As George Fox said of Christians in his day, you can keep the form of godliness and lose its power.
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    • Brent Bill
      Mark
       I know I’m being picky, but it’s Pentecostal. With an e. And we share our meetinghouse with a Pentecostal congregation so I can say there are a variety of Pentecostals. Plus I’m in no place to say who is or isn’t Quaker
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    • Mark L Grantham
      Brent Bill
       different flavors for different folks
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    • Mark L Grantham
      Brent Bill
       when I think about one of the things that Quakers stand for, Equality, I see these groups omitting that concept
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    • Brent Bill
      I guess you don’t know the Pentecostals that I do. Our meeting has LBGTQ members and our Pentecostal friends have embraced them... literally during coffee fellowship
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    • Brent Bill
      And our meeting, which is part of FUM, has a minute of support for marriage equality. So beware generalizations
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    • Muriel Edgerton
      David H. Albert. The As I said, not making assumptions about unknowns is one of my spiritual disciplines. Minding the Light I’m given is a full time activity.
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  • Kit Mason
    The Friend speaks my mind. The outer world presses hatred and forced inequality upon us; there is no need for it here.
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    • Morgan Murray
      Kit Mason
       Perhaps if one could point out a post that is pressing hatred and forced inequality I would understand better what you all are talking about. I only look at posts that catch my eye while I am procrastinating at work.
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    • Kenn Orphan
      There is a post today that links to a video which equates LGBTQ people with drug dealers.
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    • Morgan Murray
      Kenn Orphan
       That's an example of the posts that don't catch my eye. That is totally unacceptable. Even worse if it is pharmaceutical companies that are the drug dealers.
      I understand where you are coming from now. I knew there was a miscommunication between us.
      I appreciate the diversity of thought between us unprogrammed and the more 'fundamentalist', like my mother. But the equality, acceptance and love for all the children of God is not up to debate.
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  • Saralynn Smith Ingrassia
    I retired from New York to a rural part of Florida. I feel alienated because the political and social views are so unlike my own. My response is to try and see the “inner light” in these folks which requires turning on an “inner switch” to alter my perception and see our shared humanity. I still feel extremely lonely here , but am trying to turn that loneliness into...for lack of a better word ...holiness. Uh...I might add that this isn’t easy because I often feel inclined to smash certain people over the head with a crucifix! .
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  • Lynn Pharr
    God loves and creates infinite diversity. Look at nature and our universe. Why would He limit diversity in humans? Computers are binary only because that is the limit of our design. Why do humans insist that some are right and some are wrong? When I consider how often I am wrong how can I ever say with confidence what GOD considers as right or wrong.
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  • Gil George
    There is a stream of fundamentalist christianity, steeped in religious privilege, that thinks it is perfectly ok to pretend to be part of a group in order to "save" it and win converts. They infiltrated various evangelical quaker groups and have done a great job of destroying those organizations from within and replacing them with generic fundamentalist evangelical theology. They think that by having a "Quaker" name it gives them the right to invade our spaces with their Calvinist doctrines that reassert the dominance of their paper pope and of course the dominance of straight white men. Amazing coincidence how those two things are always tied together. 🙄
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    • Mark L Grantham
      Gil George
       you speak my mind
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    • Gil George
      I lived through it in NorthWest Yearly Meeting. They were absolutely ruthless and without the slightest shred of conscience in their manipulation and scheming.
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    • Muriel Strand
      i don't see fundamentalist evangelicals as having calvinist roots...?
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    • Gil George
      Oh they do. They preach the doctrine of total depravity, unconditional election, biblical inerrancy, and male headship. All of those are rooted in Calvinist thought.
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    • Cesare DiRienzi
      Gil George
       Oh wow, I just looked up those words/concepts as I'd never heard of them before. Those are rather depressing doctrines.
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  • Rich Accetta-Evans
    Thinking I might be missing something, I just scrolled through the posts to this group in the last 11 days. I don't see any that exclude or marginalize LGBTQ folks.
    If there are such posts it makes sense for you to block them, but I hope you don't cut yourself off from all reflections grounded in some version of Quaker Christian theology.
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    • Kenn Orphan
      Rich Accetta-Evans
       There is a post just today that linked to a video which equated LGBT people with drug dealers and I have seen others over the past few months.
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    • Rich Accetta-Evans
      Kenn Orphan
       That's horrible. I don't see it, though. Has it been removed? If you PM me the name of who posted it, that might clear it up for me.
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    • Matthew Smith
      that's odd, why would i not have seen that? does not show up on my feed
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  • Linsey Mullin
    That's how I feel. When I see the fundamentalist post, I think I'm on the wrong page. The quaker meeting I grew up in didn't teach the children anything about hell, original sin, or hell and damnation. The emphasis was on pacifism and activism, acceptance and brotherly love, as corny as that may sound. Those are hard standards to live up to. I never heard a Quaker talk about being "saved". It feels like some groups have commandeered Quakerism for their own private use.
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    • Chris Wynn
      Linsey Mullin
       A number of Friends are steeped in the theology of Robert Barclay, the first "theologian" of Friends. It is also important to realize that there are all kinds of Quakers today. Just like all the other denominations Quakers have wrestled with the LBGTQ issues and some are not as open-minded as many of us would like them to be. I believe the best way to approach persons who have anti-gay views is to first of all hold them in the Light, and secondly engage them in kindly and loving discourse. The old biblical admonition comes to mind, "come let us reason together."
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    • Chris Wynn
      Also, it is important to understand the effects that's a 19th century Holiness movement in America had on the society of Friends. From that evolved the pastoral system in the rise of evangelicalism among Quakers. I think it's very important to rememb… 
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    • Chris Wynn
      Note: some of the words didn't come out exactly right because I'm using the voice option and I have a rather Midwestern twangy voice that it doesn't always pick up on well.
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  • Edie Esl
    There are some very conservative Quakers, particularly among the Evangelical branch. Many African Quakers are quite strongly anti-LGBQT, and when a Lesbian Quaker couple of my acquaintance were looking into a retirement community run by conservative Friends, they were advised to tell everyone they were sisters. They said they also saw postings in the elevators and on the community bulletin board there that made them uncomfortable. Needless to say, they chose a different retirement community.
    Should we block conservative Friends with these kind of views or hope that with time their viewpoints might change?
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  • Adria Gulizia
    You should consider making the kinds of posts you would like to see more of! We all have a role in making this the kind of group that will nurture ourselves and others, and just as a few “objectionable” posts can change the tone, a few uplifting/inspirational posts can too!
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  • Raquel Centeno
    Kenn Orphan
     don’t leave. You are not alone.
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  • Joanne Birney
    Please stay. I’m a nonthesist Quaker and welcoming to all. I think we need voices from all Friends.
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  • Daniel Lean-Moctezuma
    Kenn Orphan
     Don't leave Friend, stay and hold the space
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  • Kathryn F. Adams
    I have learned to scroll past posts that I find disturbing. Sending love and Light to all LGBTQ Friends.
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  • Faith Kenrick
    Welcome all to learn from each other, why not have an open door? The kindness of strangers can be a gateway to paradise.
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  • https://www.facebook.com/terrence.landoll.79
  • Terrence Landoll
    https://www.facebook.com/terrence.landoll.79 Your post echoes my own experience for joining this site (i'm an isolated Friend living in Korea,), but your response to evangelicals is something different. i know there are many people who have been terribly hurt by various strands of evangelicalism. Maybe that needs to be talked about. but i'm over it; i look back (i was raised Catholic,) and wonder about how i can still engage these people. And so for me, encountering evangelical Friends is an opportunity to engage people, to "answer that of God" in their souls. i do so gently (i hope!) i can imagine, as i am theo-centric and i do try to understand Christian and Jewish writings/thought/history, that some of my posts may be distressing. One of my "rules of thumb" is that God usually appears at that point in a community where there is hurt/need for healing. i think your post is such a point. Thank you!
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  • Liz Humes Estep
    Please do not leave the group. Quakers needs your voice
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  • Dennis W. Mills
    Thanks, David! We need to spread the word.
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  • Sheilagh Smith
    I have never found avoiding what makes me uncomfortable about others as being helpful, even among Quakers. In fact, I generally find that if someone affects me negatively, it is generally something inside me I need to see and work on. Otherwise, I believe it takes all kinds of people to make up a world. I need to let others be who they are and focus on myself and my responsibilities. I generally find it is our egos talking if we start judging and excluding. Quakers are a diverse bunch and we should not expect homogeneity. Our understanding of our SPICES should guide our way, not our opinions on how others see those same SPICES...there is a distinct and salient difference between the two approaches. ✌️
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  • Hank Fay
    Quakerism is either about seeking the Light in all people, or it has no purpose other than a safe space for the privileged middle class.
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  • Teri Lynn Bookless
    Your post isn't too lengthy. Best to block people rather than deprive us of your fellowship. Thanks. I feel the same.
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This is a group for anyone on Facebook who considers themselves a Quaker, whatever branch you belong to or wherever you're from.
Let's keep everything relevant to Quakerism and the Religious Society of Friends. (That doesn't mean no politics. It does mean no discussion of politics without relating it to spiritual life) Let's keep it civil. And let's try to be clear, knowing (among other things) that not everyone here is North American.
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