Gandhi As I See Him by Mukunda Rao
Azim Premji University
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830 views Oct 21, 2019
28
830 views Oct 21, 2019
Mukunda Rao talks about "Gandhi As I See Him " as a part of the Azim Premji University Colloquium series. October 4, 2019 About the Lecture The lecture reflects on what Gandhi means today as a living consciousness. About the Speaker Mukunda Rao is the author of several books fiction, plays, and philosophical works. His works of fiction include, most recently, Sky-Clad: The Life and Times of the Extraordinary Akka Mahadevi (Harper Collins, 2018) and Shambuka Rama: Three Tales Retold (HarperCollins, 2018). He has written two plays: Mahatma – Khuda ka Hijra (1988 and 2009) and Baba Saheb Ambedkar (2008 and 2014). His works in philosophy include Belief and Beyond: Adventures in Consciousness from the Upanishads to Modern Times (Harper Collins, 2019), The Buddha: An Alternative to His Life and Teaching (Harper Collins, 2017) and Biology of Enlightenment (Element, 2014). He has also edited The Penguin UG Krishnamurthi Reader (Penguin, 2007). He lives on a farm outside Bengaluru.
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How Did Gandhi Influence Me
3:03
Ashram
19:36
Metaphors for India
52:32
Fasting
1:07:02
The Mahatma
1:10:14![]()
The Direct Action Day
1:10:50![]()
Characteristic Characteristics of the Truth Seeker
1:20:07
==========
Transcript
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How Did Gandhi Influence Me
3:03
Ashram
19:36
Metaphors for India
52:32
Fasting
1:07:02
The Mahatma
1:10:14
The Direct Action Day
1:10:50
Characteristic Characteristics of the Truth Seeker
1:20:07
==========
Transcript
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[Music]
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the city in three parts that we need over the shading my thoughts not so the
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structure as disjointed statements might be forgotten
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I tell you so East affairs to the first
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person share with you how I need to die
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and the second part would be slightly intuitive software and effect on his
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face and lastly we'll see how Gandhi
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with his work struggle and his I guess technically
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offered a story so that first exam so
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the research how
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national college have you heard of national college sand you seem nice to college but some goodie probably some of
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you are all from outside that was a very reputed college during those days why reputed because 10 out of 10 ranks you
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nope you see ranks came to national college I drink that water famous 11 but
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I like the teachers there I heard they were very good teachers and so I went
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and joined and then I found that the principal happens to be a guardian by
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then I had been already drawn to Gandhi and the principal will happen to be a
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guardian a very famous person called H Nelson Maya probably you know not many
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of you know so he was quite a legend during his lifetime when he was a
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principal and how did Gandhi influence
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me I was really completely completely bowled over I took it to my heart and he
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let me enter into into my heart into my being as it were so I used to wear caddy
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pants khadisha hawai slippers no coffee no tea no sweets don't look at girls I
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had told myself while I was in PUC but that I couldn't help because there were a lot of girls in my class no use to
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feel guilty so it is that physical level you know one started imitating Gandhi
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I'm not completely imitating you know he you know how he was just I didn't trust
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that way I couldn't have gone to college that way but I tried to live that life I
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had taken to that kind of a life where is really not to lead us into life in every
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sense of the term and to be very truthful what did it mean for me you
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know during those days to be truthful you know that you should be transparent
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you should speak the truth you should not hide your thoughts from anybody so
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this kind of a thing gadi I was quite so very deeply taken up
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by Garvey and I started reading Gandhi I remember there was this book called mind
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of maja the Mahatma you know it was some 500 pages book I don't see any new
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edition of it these days must have taken about three months or so
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to read and really he got into my system he got into my system so much in the
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sense he became you our paradigm so to
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say so you looked at everything you assess everything in terms of you know
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Gandhi's philosophy Gandhi's ideas you know in terms of his notion of truth at
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whatever level I had understood at that time his notion of Satya his frankness
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his truthfulness you know so that was the level at which Gandhi influenced me
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and that was the time I I think not just
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I but my generation believed in the possibility of bringing about a
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transformation in society that that you know we have that responsibility and
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those days we really believe that we can create a caste less Society absolutely
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no doubt about it and that we should get married within
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our caste we should you know move out of our caste we should you know condemn
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caste system and really built a cashless society
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that is another thing another thing right in those days I learned was that
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all forms of protest must be combined with some creative action some constructive work I hold on to that mu
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even today and and I find myself becoming very very critical of people
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who are most of the time engaged in the protest mode you know then the whole
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life is dedicated to protesting you know against certain things which is absolutely necessary you know we need to
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protest but I think along with that I think we individual if he is the serious
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individual you know and who is wants to work for this kind of a transformation must also be engaged in some
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constructive activity so this is another very important element I learned and
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doing physical work I think that's when I started doing my own dirty work not to
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depend on them and doing you physical work you know not just the mental work you know the digging the sweeping the
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mopping I this is these are the things I tell you you know when we went to Gandhi
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he taught us all these things not just me my whole generation I am sure all
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those who took to Gandhi very seriously you know he became your model he became
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your teacher you studied him very closely and you you know you try to
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follow these principles these values so that's how my journey with Gandhi began
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and then of course I moved on to the other things you know the the spiritual
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literature the philosophical things I didn't want to do science I wanted to do
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arts and then I didn't want to do literature from literature I moved to
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philosophy and and it went on that way and I ended up as a lecturer
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from which job I retired quite some time ago how many years ago some maybe some
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19 15 years ago so but what does Ghandi
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mean you know what are the philosophical
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along his philosophy his idea of activism so let's talk about that I
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would like to talk now I think about two things to start with one his notion of
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truth and the notion of a himself now by
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truth I don't know what do you understand by truth it should have been so easy if you know nice if there was
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some kind of an interaction you know with a with you guys so what do you
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think of truth what is your idea of truth
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the notion of truth from is the point of view of science from different religions
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is there one truth or different truths many truths now this was central to
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Gandhi first he started saying that God
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is you know this is truth is God and then he shifted him to to the position
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that truth no God is not truth is God he
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moved from truth is God to God is true
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anyway his notion of truth is the most important thing and from its like the
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great banyan tree from where proliferate all his other ideas so that is the
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foundation on which his entire philosophy is constructed so to say his
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notion of truth from which is derived in the notion of him sighs well now truth
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is not something that is given the truth that religions speak about is not true
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that is a matter of faith right you know what to talk about God you know creation
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if there is a hell heaven you know you take it by faith I don't think you questioned it too much when you start
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questioning you drop these ideas but anyway they are all what you call the believes the faith and what religion
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gives us is not truth we need to examine them so what is true then is it a given
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thing no it is not a given thing what is truth then truth is something according
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to Gandhi we don't know we don't know the truth in the sense we don't know the
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absolute truth but we know truth we know the existence of truth we
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know the functional truth Nancy this this wood is hard you know you're all
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students so these are all functional truths relative truths and there are so
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many such truths so all that we have are related truths even the idea of man for
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instance the notion of man is a relative truth the notion of woman is also a relative truth the notion of God is a
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related truth so what human beings have been dealing with over the centuries are these
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relative truths but the moment we absolute eyes these truths the problem
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begins messy so relate to truth is all
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that we have absolute truth I do not
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know to no absolute truth is to know God to know God is to become God is to
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become servant Allah you know but I do not know the truth so when I do not know
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the truth what do I do you know I want to know the truth you
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know he music he was a great question that way you know and to me to me even
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today symbolizes that quest that question you know that quest after truth
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yeah that is another thing that I learned from being is that I would go
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often this truth that I would be committed to whatever I learned that I
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would not compromise you know and I would not accept anything blindly I will
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have to find out for myself I'll have to find out for myself in the context of my own experience that is it
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another thing I learned from him because he would want to test put to test every
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but you told him everything he learned from the scriptures from the religion
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from politics everything had to be you know had to pass through the test of
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experience and reason so now coming back to truth we do not know the truth all we
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know is the relative truth relative
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truth is all that we have and from relative truths related truth we move
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hopefully that will be moving towards greater truth and greater truth you know
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I mean we are on this journey of the truth since I do not know I cannot act
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like God I see I do not have the right to terminate somebody else that is where
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the hymns are aspect emerges you see now
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I am sir traditionally meant you know avoiding conflict avoiding injury do not
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hurt people and you know in Jainism himsa is a Mahabharata you know the
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ultimate authorities they you have heard of silicon a--there's Allah you know
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some people get into that stage where everything they renounce they are after
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Nirvana and that is a time they starve themselves to death so that is the
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sallekhana so you avoid food completely you know even food taking food is in
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some way it means that you're committing
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committing violence somebody you know some some form of life is being you know
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killed you know this this you cannot avoid so therefore the ultimate act
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nonviolent act is you know you you deny
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food for yourself and you die and it's better to die that way you know
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and can reach nirvana that's their justification so there is a Mahabharata
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but in Gandhi's hand normal and became and interventionist
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politics you see nonviolent did not mean avoidance it meant engagement you see it
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meant engagement so in this pursuit of truth in this journey towards truth one
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principle you have to implement one
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means that you need to follow absolutely is the nonviolent means is there himself
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and in this journey I himself does not mean disengagement just avoiding
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violence you know or injury but it means
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engagement with society you know that you participate in society and through
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nonviolent means you know you see in what way you could transform because
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non-violence will keep both the the
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aggressor and the victim you know in an open dialogue it creates that
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possibility I have a problem with you through nonviolent means I still keep
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the relationship open you can see I don't terminate the relationship so here
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normally that sense creates a possibility of the growth for both the
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victim and the aggressor or the oppressor so that's how it is seen and
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it creates the more and more possibilities for society to move towards greater truth and greater truth
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and hopefully realize these great values you know value such as dignity autonomy
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you know justice and ultimately the spiritual liberation even for spiritual
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liberation even for moksha for nirvana you know you need to create an
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atmosphere you create you need to create an environment where the pursuit of this
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highest principle is possible and when
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there is violence when there is conflict when there is too much of chaos in a spiritual pursuit is not possible how do
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you do that so that way I see Gandhi as
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a modern acharya you know when we talk about Sharia'a we talk of sankaracarya
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ramanujacarya and others the ones who interpreted the bhagavad-gita Brahma
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sutras Upanishads you know for us but I think he was a really great acharya
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acharya in the sense one who looked and
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we looked at the indian culture indian philosophy and try to understand and
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interpret the indian philosophy in the in the in the context of the present day
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you know problems aspirations values goals so that way
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he was a great arch area the kind of changes he brought about I think we need
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to just dwell briefly upon that take for instance the notion of ashram now what
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is an ashram of course today's our sturms are you know it's almost a bad
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word you know it becomes a centers of wealth and all kinds of things happen
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but as from traditionally manteno space within society or outside society where
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you went to practice silence you know to study the the the spiritual texts
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to us ah Donna but in God and the Gandhi's hand in Gandhi's hand ashram
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became a space within the society where you not only pursued your sadhana did
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your sadhana you might have done your contemplation your prayers and your
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meditation but along with that you trained yourself versus a theory I see
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you went to cook there you learn to mop the floor sweep the floor you learn to
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clean the toilet and see participating prayers learn to pray learn to write you
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did all these and trained yourself as a satyagraha so that was that's Rama for
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Gandhi you know and take the notion of Swaraj you know for Tillich and go clay
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and a whole lot of leaders Congress leaders so adamant the political freedom
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independence from the British rule Gandhi used this very notion and
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inflated the notion of Swaraj to mean several other things like the political
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independence the social the cultural and
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the spiritual to kasi so freedom in proven freedom is not just one there are
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different forms of freedom so all these forms of freedoms are absolutely necessary and as a matter of
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fact if you were to I am sure you know find out as to how many hours he might
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have spent in the political field in political activities and how many hours he might have probably you know spent in
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the social cultural activities I am sure he is the mood
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in bothering his head about the social problems social issues and attending to
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these problems so he was that kind of Nigeria who gave this kind of very
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radical interpretation of things in fact just recently while you know I was doing
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some work and I was looking up at some material I found this very interesting
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idea of Gandhi according to idea of God according to Gandhi you will find this
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probably very interesting in some place he says you know he has different
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descriptions his Rama was not the historical Rama his notion of Rama Rajya
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is not some you know throwback to some mythical eh and about God - he stopped
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quite a lot but this description I I was really drawn to this description he says
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I don't mind calling you know describing God as my god every word of this my dong
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open space open field hindi word my dong
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does it ring a bell no
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yeah but you see that connects Gandhi philosophically spiritually directly to
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the 12th century Watson acara's you have overcome a Devi but Salama Prabhu know
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one of the books there that's been passed around is on a comic arriving and
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yeah these are essentially what you call Wyatt's mystic Wyatt's very
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revolutionary I think you should at some stage acquaint yourself with these times
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particularly at Omaha Davey and Alamo Prabhu so the notion of Shiva there she
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was not again the Shiva with snakes around his neck you see just slow was
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very different for instance you have the Shiva Linga you know the Shiva Linga
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according to a whole lot of people exposed to Western education and anthropology would interpret that as a
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phallic symbol which indeed it must have been no doubt but a simple also
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undergoes transformations you know we charge these symbols with
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newer meaning and your meaning that's what God they did know some scholar
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might say even cross is a phallic symbol I have heard and have read all that
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stuff see but when I a believing Christian goes to the church and looks
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at the cross I think he comes about different emotions isn't it it triggers
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something very different in him the same thing about to the Shiva Linga it might
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have started as a phallic symbol but
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later on you know it started meaning different things for the hwachun acara's 12 century virgin acara's shiva linga
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meant the pillar of light i see the pillar of light is a symbol that
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you know comes you you might see this coming up again and again in different
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spiritualities of this country very interesting that is so shilling her was
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a pillar of light for them and this Shiva was the absolute infinite principle not with an image and the
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other word which was a very profound word as linguistically as profound as
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the word Nirvana and the unknown Shah even today I feel by aloo by Alou is the
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word they used by Allah means open field open space so in that sense you could
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say that Gandhi connects with the 12th century what's in a car as when he said you know I I don't mind calling God
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Maidan because there is demise on the open space and there is this vast infinite sky to me that is good enough
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description of God that's what he said
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so this way he was a very revolutionary guy the way he turned certain things
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topsy-turvy he's amazing you see
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and one can go into different things like his practice of brahmacharya and
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other things and how would evolutionary very different he was I say when for
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instance birra goes to Varanasi when she goes to the one to go there there is one of these chaitanya mahaprabhu's follower
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she wants to go on meet him she he says he sends word saying that I will not
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meet I will not meet her I will not meet a woman and Mira sends back a message
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saying I thought God was the only man I didn't know you competed with him I see
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so what was I saying see the notion of
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God you know given the notion of God for instance the way they talked about God
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very amazing he was not temple go well he didn't go to temples he might have
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gone there sometimes to you know see the architecture and appreciated admire the
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great construction and all that he was not a temple go well but today what we
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have done is how a rebel Gandhi for
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instance you know has been domesticated for just such a pirate for instance you
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know I think it is a brilliant moon in a way by somebody to not to reject Gandhi
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not to keep in my way bring him bring him into this room make him sit here and
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we can talk about you know keeping the room clean keeping the campus clean such
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of Herat you know not make you you know ask questions
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or you know rebelled against anything first of all don't ask questions so
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now I think I'll come to the last part maybe it would be good if you have any
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questions you know I would be too glad to answer instead of giving this lecture
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does it mean anything to us today I think he means quite a lot to me though
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I don't talk in terms of relevance or new Elevens you know if Gandhi didn't
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mean anything I should be speaking about him at all you know it's absolute nonsense so these are all living things
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you know anyway this is the this is the the continuity of certain things this is
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the rebirth now the ideas take rebirth in different minds to me this is the
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rebirth real rebirth in so Gandhi in that sense you know is a living
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phenomenon for me you know he symbolizes that quest in me he represents that
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quest that I too have and this is
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Rebelle Gandhi in fact when we talk of God in detail we distinguish between the
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England Gandhi you know and the South African country and you have the 1920s
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Gandhi and the forties Gandhi you know
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the 20s Gandhi was a rebel Gandhi and extremely rebellious so this rebel he
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has Gandhi today as I told you I think it's worth repeating there have been
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there are attempts to domesticate this energy and you know make his relevance
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only to such Marathon things like that no I think he is one who really asked
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great many questions and some of them are very disturbing questions
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you would know that when he was killed
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not only a particular party headquarters they know members distributed sweets a
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lot of religious centers ashrams run by upper caste Hindus distributed
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sweets so he was he was seen a danger
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this is the whole problem you know he'd call him a Mahatma the one the ones whose heart you know he bleeds for the
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poor no great soul the the Orthodox Muslims who wanted Pakistan very badly
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they thought of him as an enemy of Islam you know they're very crafty Hindu a
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veiled enemy of Islam the Hindus Orthodox Hindus especially the upper
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caste Hindus sort of him as an enemy of Hinduism you know he's an enemy of
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Hinduism and what is he doing to this great country you know they were deadly
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against two things one they thought he was feminizing politics you know this is
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again another revolutionary aspect of Gandhi I'm afraid I don't think we have
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that much of time okay yeah
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see his notes that takes us back to his notion of the human the notion of man
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and the notion of woman and the notion of moksha or liberation as well he was
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influenced by no doubt some of these rights and by you know during his
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English and then maybe Tolstoy Ruskin
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she was influenced by all these guys but the main influence the deeper influence
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I think came to him from his deep and study and understanding of Indian
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philosophy by Indian philosophy I include Jain philosophy Buddhist
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philosophy or all the other different streams we have had hundreds thousands
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of streams in this country you know and you have to let these streams be what
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they are we need to have to you know put them all together and call it Hinduism even that is not necessary even that is
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not necessary and he was for that kind of tremendous nihilism and he himself
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represented in his life and living and struggled that tremendous Brutalism so
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it was critical of his people he was critical of for instance the the
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Orthodox Christians who were involved in conversions you know they felt very
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uncomfortable with him very very uncomfortable with him because he challenged them and he told them why do
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you do this live the you know the Spirit of Christ Jesus is missing in your lives
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you will have to be living example of that that that love and compassion that
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Christ represented instead it eases the way to carry the message of Jesus to
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different corners of the world and the country they were involved in some of this conversion business and all that so
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he was very critical he was critical of for instance women Muslim women wearing burqa
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you know sometimes where he spoke where he was simple about these things and
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once he was asked by some of this you know maybe some
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moolah with some leader of the Muslim community you have no right to talk
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about Islam you can go talk about your Hinduism and he said no because I am
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also a Muslim because you'll have to be ready for this I am also a Muslim
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because I'm a good Hindu and being a good leader I am also a good Christian
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and a good Chris being a good Christian I am also a good Buddhist so his definition of you know religion was
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really something very revolutionary and that's how it should be religion is not
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the hey you know believe it is behavior how you behave yourself how you conduct
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yourself how you sit touch another person speak to another person that is
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your religion not the not the the you know the costumes that you wear or you
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know the the different other adornments you have or the beliefs you carry no
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behavior so when it comes to terms of behavior now what do you call so people
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recognize this people recognize this and that's the reason why they said you know
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if there were you know really true genuine follower of Christ Jesus this
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was the man Yesi tsunamis and his
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identity while he was asked okay what are you he said he might have said I'm a
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Hindu in the beginning and then he I think he started saying I am as a not honest even the words are not honest
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today is problematic hugely problematic because some groups are using the words Anitha needs to mean something else
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you see s a not honest is one you know who belongs to the ancient times you
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know the the timeless time as it were and and and and identifies himself with
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all that is there and that's what he said in fact that he's the inheritor of
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all the ideas all that the humanity has produced how can you deny that this is
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it another thing that I learned as a student and I'm very profitable at it although I can't exercise that right too
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much these days you know I can't interpret every one and every book you
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know see that will not be accepted perhaps but I really believe that I am the inheritor of all these beautiful and
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ugly things the world has produced what else am i I think that's a true fact to
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call myself that you know because I am born in a Hindu family doesn't mean that I'm a Hindu my identity my personality
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can't be circumscribed by this simple fact you know the historical or
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sociological fact and the biological fact can't limit it you see it can't
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limited so when he was that kind of a person that kind of a universal person he had absolutely no hesitation in
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talking about you know all these things because he felt he had the right because
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he felt really genuinely that he was a genuine Jew a genuine good Muslim a good
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Christian a good Buddhist so that brings
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us to what is happening with regard to the the problem of identity today I
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think that is where perhaps we learn we could learn a couple of things from Gandhi you know I think these identities
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are hardening today right they are becoming very hard and too hard I said
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there's this beautiful book by a moccasin about these whole politics of identity it's a beautiful one so
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identities are hardened any turning you know and creating this
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exclusiveness and they're creating these huge walls of separation among us and
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for instance just now I mentioned he says all these identities are functional
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and dysfunctional identities have become absolute identities you see and he says
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we are made of multiple identities but sometimes for different reasons certain
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identities get privileged over other things and for political reasons some
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identities are not manipulated used see
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when you are sitting there coming to college carrying the bag books you're a student
40:08
don't you think of yourself as a student definitely think of yourself as a student but when you have an identity
40:16
with friends you have an identity tomorrow you go join an office and work
40:23
for a company you have an identity you have an identity you know given to you
40:28
by your language the language you speak so there are different identities you
40:34
are made of different selves as it were but these all these identities or
40:39
functional identities the absolute identity is again is something like
40:45
truth you don't know now frankly seriously do we know who we are
40:52
can you answer that question if I ask you what are you you know of course
40:59
that's a very deep philosophical spiritual question Ramana kept asking what are you who are you but ultimately
41:06
it's a very interesting question important question as well ultimately we don't know right but there are
41:12
functional cells these are all functional nothing wrong with it oh this
41:19
is beautiful but we are absolute izing that yes see once we absolute eyes these
41:26
identities you know put up walls these identities then the problem begins
41:35
so - Gandhi the therefore the notion of nationalism the the idea of a nation the
41:44
idea of man the idea woman they were all functional he believed that there was a
41:52
woman in him and for quite a number of
41:57
years it's a very interesting phase zero he was in search of himself as it were
42:03
you know the woman in him and try to bring the woman out of him
42:10
interestingly Manu Gandhi you know who's his grand niece who's written a book and
42:17
I about daddy what her this she's called the book my mother Gandhi my mother a
42:25
very interesting thing and for a whole lot of people he didn't seem like a man
42:33
you know this may sound a little out of the movie but it's quite funny and very
42:41
interesting I think one of the biographers recently I read somewhere and grew how could her little one
42:51
this was ages ago in her book she is written long time back a little one you know saw the picture of Gandhi and said
42:59
dad or mommy mommy you think he is he
43:05
has a vagina she asked when the father said no he has no vagina he has a penis
43:11
father said oh I thought he has a wiser now because he looks so nice and kind no
43:20
this is very interesting kind of you know little information like that for
43:27
the little girl for a lot of people
43:32
look as if he was that that man that manly feel no that could be the reason
43:42
why Minogue on D you know called him a mother my mother Nancy and we believe
43:48
that that again takes him back to the
43:53
bhakti movement you know the Vedanta you know during the bhakti movement lot of
44:01
even mail bhaktas what do they give up
44:07
they gave up their wealth they give up their caste they give up everything and
44:13
they give up their gender identity to Yesi they give up their gender identity
44:20
to the reason why I quoted Meera you know when the chaitanya mahaprabhu
44:26
follower said i can't i do i wouldn't meet a woman because god is the only
44:34
male so to say in some sense you know so a man but a male but the transforms
44:41
himself in such a way that he is no more a male so that he becomes fit enough to
44:49
meet his god you see because you have to give up all identities you will have to
44:56
empty yourself you should become my dung you know opens please to go and meet
45:02
with you know your God if there is one I think this is the most important thing
45:09
into which is tied up the other things I hope you got it now the identity thing
45:15
the truth thing and they are him such thing all these trees are tied up here now see if you really believe that truth
45:23
is something where we do not know but we consider something as truth as a match
45:28
of faith not because we have found out or because you have experienced it but
45:35
because it's just a matter of faith but actually speaking truth is not something that we know but we are after truth
45:44
we are all Questers all right but we do not know I'm therefore we do not have the right to put down somebody you know
45:53
to to terminate somebody's life to destroy things that right I do not
46:01
have and related to this notion of truth and I him sir is also the whole identity
46:06
question you know the identity also I
46:11
think is something that personally also am very interested is something that we
46:18
do not know about you know I think it would be much better if you call
46:23
yourselves the you know the child of the you know you are made of the star the
46:28
dust of star or something that's okay that's okay but these are all very
46:34
functional things you know the the religious identity even the gender identity and they're all functional
46:41
things so that way I think Gandhi's ideas the things he stood for challenges
46:49
today's some of the political structures some of the political discourses that
46:56
are you know in circulation today and more importantly I think this very ugly
47:06
politics of identity no this whole ugly identity business that is going on and
47:13
on and on I think it is dating our minds that in place and we need a broom stick
47:23
called Gandhi to clean this up I think there he can he will definitely be very useful
=======
thank you very much if you have questions maybe I'll answer them
=======
47:42
a bad time to discuss because after lunch usually difficult No
47:55
the circuit
48:02
so so you I think you briefly mentioned but can you say sort of add in terms of
48:09
what what he or his the philosophies mean for today because in in today's times
48:15
what is its relevance and and what can we learn in in from him in today's times
48:24
[Music] now his whole understanding of politics
48:29
of religion and all of them or the pointers that is where we can learn from
48:37
you know you know about the politics the he would you you have heard this
48:43
talisman he gave you know you have so these are all the things you know that could really help us now whatever we are
48:50
doing is it going to be useful for the poorest of the poor would this step I am going to take wipe every tear from every
48:57
eye I think this is the litmus test this is the talisman so there are hundreds
49:04
and thousands like that and his whole idea of truth and non-violence to me are
49:10
very important and particularly his idea of truth I think all of us this is the
49:15
most to me personally also most enraging
49:21
thing when I meet with people when I see what is going on because we seem to have
49:26
arrived at some conclusion we know really don't you do you know what is it
49:31
that we know you know we don't know quite a lot of things but people you
49:38
know behaviors if they know everything and they are trying to impose whatever they think is right on the others so
49:46
that's why what I told you you know this notion of true the notion of identity is all tied up
49:52
it's all linked one leads to the other say one leads to the other these are all
49:58
like the different branches of his philosophy you know he's notional rostrum his notion of trusteeship if he
50:05
was not assassinated we don't know how more revolutionary you would have been I
50:11
would have really loud to know what you'd have talked about trusteeship for instance that's a new I don't think some
50:18
of you would know that therefore I am NOT going to go into a TIA please
50:28
the same trust trustees the issues that you are talking about I just want to
50:33
know if you can or if you find any
50:40
similar aspects in the truths the related liberated truths that Gandhi the
50:47
I don't know I don't know that - I don't know that Gandhi says and that I don't know that ug case is ug Krishnamurti
50:54
says so his most of the I don't knows you know all over the world has been
50:59
institutionalized the only I don't know that doesn't have been institutionalized is ug case so I just want to know how
51:07
similar the idea of truth may be relative or functional both Gandhian uzk
51:15
is that is there any similar similarity that you can ug I don't know many of you
51:22
may not know okay I'll give you two met of us maybe these two better has a good
51:28
enough serie so I one time we wanted to
51:33
write about India I know what what does India stand for is there such a thing as an Indian mine
51:40
what a K Ramanujan started that famous essay is there such a thing as an Indian mind you know Andrea domino Jen you know
51:47
talks very brilliantly about it it all depends on where you put the emphasis if
51:53
you put the emphasis on Indian Indian mind you know the answer will be different if you put the emphasis on
51:59
mind the answer will be again different you know the very question will carry different meanings
52:06
so wondering about all that you know I began but I couldn't continue maybe sometime later I'll continue this essay
52:13
I decided on how I should be end I'm
52:18
giving a very great secret to you but this is such a sacred thing for me and
52:24
when you share the sacred thing you know I think its value goes up it doesn't
52:30
come down I have these two metaphors for India Chandan brilliant metaphors
52:37
you heard of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa Ramakrishna Paramahamsa I think really
52:44
stood for India I'll tell you how you see
52:51
you know he went through all emotions the whole gamut of the bhakti bhava you
53:00
know he wanted to experience all that he wanted to experience all that one time
53:05
he became a rama bhakta you know so he stripped himself naked climbed a tree
53:14
sat on the tree behaved like Hanuman can you imagine sir can you imagine somebody
53:20
being Glinka monkey you would call him a madman I'm calling out Rama Rama he
53:26
literally did this he embodied the feelings of Hanuman and he became human
53:32
as it were yeah then even wanted to
53:38
experience what this Allah is all about what Muhammad thought he went out of the
53:44
premises of the Kali temple where he used to stay you know and he wore the
53:51
dress suffered a Muslim I think it was an Arab dress and he did his namaz
53:59
whatever number of times for a week or he lived like in like a believing Muslim
54:09
and he had the experience of he calls it
54:15
as the experience of Mohammed and when he had behaved like Hanuman you know he
54:24
had the vision of Rama he had the vision of Sita then he wanted to understand
54:34
what Christianity is all about he behaved like a Christian and he had the
54:42
vision of Jesus Christ now do you know this part of the story
54:48
you don't know you haven't heard of so he went through all these emotions he
54:54
went through all these emotions and he became those things which he
54:59
adored you but my point he became all that he he worshiped he became all that
55:08
he worshiped he became muslim believing muslims he became a christ not just that
55:15
he had the vision of muhammad he had the vision of Christ he had the vision of
55:20
Rama he had the vision of Sita all these emotions he went through music so this
55:29
is India you know you absorb you take it is not para kya privation you don't enter into
55:35
his body you make that person that force
55:41
that power that beautiful thing whatever that is that life to enter him to you
55:48
you give space you know you like a Hanuman you tear open your chest and let
55:54
Rama and you know Sita reside in your heart so this is India I thought this is
56:02
a brilliant in you know image a metaphor for India it means everything it wants
56:09
to experience everything and make it its own by which it was enriched no doubt
56:16
about it and then you have the image of
56:21
you J Krishnamurti Mooji Krishnamurti went through a very interesting experience which he called it as saints
56:30
go marching out there is this famous Christian you know what Carol Saints
56:38
come watching him but he called her saints go marching out now when he went
56:46
through some biological changes and other great transformations took place for a number of days he started having
56:53
tremendous visions visions in the sense when he saw somebody he also became that
57:00
somebody they see and that is a time very interesting that is the time I
57:07
believe we saw two women absolutely naked two women and he told our guerrilla brigade
57:15
sir I saw these women and later on I found out these are all visions visions in the sense what has happened over
57:22
thousands of years of time is all they're embedded in memory you
57:27
understand you know he's like the hard disk is like the chip in which the
57:33
millions of bytes you know the memories of all human being not just human beings of animals
57:39
everything is embedded in this so we carry this memory and the Western
57:47
psychologist called it as you called it as the collective unconscious and all that so and these two men happen to be
57:58
in relation to the end acha mahadevi and he says he had the
58:04
vision of muhammad's i mean he had so how was maja but
58:10
somebody asked when you were selling that so every handsome guy sir he said very interesting kind of comments he
58:16
would me so he had the vision of Christ he had the vision of Mohammed he had the
58:23
vision of Buddha I believe the vision of Buddha lasted for a very long time maybe because of
58:29
the impact that Buddha has had on human consciousness what he says is these
58:35
figures who have had a great impact on human consciousness these are the
58:42
memories that are coming out and these memories came out like that the visions
58:47
happen and then they disappeared they disappeared they disappeared so the same
58:53
soil went marching out and he says you
59:00
know sir what was happening along these memories good bad ugly whatever
59:07
spiritual whatever all these are memories they must go and the
59:14
consciousness be must become empty then it becomes
59:19
really sacred it is it becomes empty and pure so he used the word flashed out all
59:28
the images were flushed out of his memory his mind his consciousness so
59:38
this is the emptiness that these guys have been talking about this may be too much bit of too much for you but let it
59:46
be there and you know you can put it in your mind in some corner and leave it there for now this is what all the
59:52
graces great Caesar's have talked about the emptying the my done you know by a
1:00:00
low junetta the emptiness or the
1:00:05
wideness so therefore what is the truth according
1:00:11
to it if we have to philosophize if I have to philosophize is something that
1:00:17
you don't know because how do you how do
1:00:23
you know what is knowing please understand this just one minute
1:00:29
give some thought to it all knowing is in frames and in binary forms right you
1:00:36
know is a positional black and white man woman good and bad happiness and sorrow
1:00:43
so your knowing your narrative your story construction you are talking to
1:00:50
yourself talking to another is framed in this language all-knowing so if there is
1:00:57
a truth logically you can appreciate this if there is a truth then the mind which is
1:01:04
caught up in this binary mode of thinking of black and white cannot
1:01:10
understand then how can it understand it cannot understand that it has to
1:01:17
understand when you understand that it cannot understand then it becomes what
1:01:23
it becomes quite when it becomes quite then the unknown is there the truth is
1:01:31
there now you got the secret of all these sages and philosophers so that's the secret so that is the ultimate thing
1:01:39
that we'll talk about later we will not go there now but that is the ultimate
1:01:44
thing at least intellectually you should be able to understand and appreciate this so - Gandhi - who belong to the
1:01:50
stream of thought truth is unknown you do not know once you really know what
1:01:58
feel that I tell you it makes you so humble it makes you humble it doesn't
1:02:06
make you feel inferior it makes you humble but it makes you tremendously active it makes you tremendous - you're
1:02:13
honest tremendously truthful now see because you don't know but you want to
1:02:18
know you will know but all that you know is by the limited mind what is this limited mind the binary
1:02:26
mind so that you know always and keeping that you move from truth to greater
1:02:32
truth you may - truth - relative truth hoping that you reach a place a point where the
1:02:39
whole thing will dissolve and then you don't know thank you sorry sir I didn't
1:02:49
answer your question directly
1:02:56
thank you for this talk many things that he said I'm sure they're very difficult
1:03:01
to understand but like you said maybe eventually they will bloom my some some
1:03:11
things so this I just wanted to ask would worded renunciation and fasting
1:03:20
mean to condi and and in his life like we like we spoke about how he took
1:03:27
things in the past and made it his own something that he said India also does
1:03:33
so what did this mean to him yeah thank you for asking such a wonderful question
1:03:39
you take this renunciation itself you know you you may ask this question and
1:03:46
you can amaze yourself by asking this question and knowing that Gandhi could
1:03:53
sleep well while his co-workers and associates you
1:03:58
know would spend sleepless nights you know bothering about this and that Gandhi in the thick of problems could
1:04:06
sleep well to me this is an amazing thing you know I can understand it Bhima I can understand the term the Rama's
1:04:17
brother kumbhakarna you know sleeping well you know the bhima's are the
1:04:24
bhima's you know you they eat well in the thick of battle field also you give them a pillow or no pill no they want to
1:04:31
sleep their sleep some are really lucky people like that you know but Gandhi who
1:04:37
was in the think of such politics I know I think he was a witness to some of the
1:04:44
most horrible crimes in this of this century you know I could sleep well he
1:04:51
could sleep well because to him renunciation meant renouncing the fruits of action the good guitar message see
1:05:00
that that's what he understood renunciation was not renouncing moving away from society I see and do
1:05:08
your tapas in fact once mihriban I think he tells her if I wanted I could have
1:05:15
gone to Himalayas but that is not what I want to do my search for truth the transaction for truth has to happen in
1:05:22
the thick of samsara because the notion of truth is also tied up with society I
1:05:27
see so the search for truth and the realization of truth cannot be outside
1:05:32
society it has to be within society so renunciation is absolutely necessary but
1:05:38
not renunciation from life from engagement but renunciation of the
1:05:45
fruits of action why you renounce the fruits of action but why you are not the
1:05:50
only one and you are not the only one responsible you do a certain act what
1:05:57
the consequence of that act would be is not going to be decided and try ly by
1:06:04
you or by the other person there are multiple hundreds of factors that decide
1:06:09
let it happen it's okay but I am NOT going to be attached to that you see
1:06:15
I'll still further work on it and keep moving ahead and ahead so now seeing the fruits of action
1:06:23
detached means not to be detached in a relationship but detached from yourself
1:06:33
from the possibilities of getting hurt because why do you get hurt because you
1:06:40
take things yourself too seriously you are here the cult clue you are the
1:06:46
doer no I am NOT the doer
1:06:51
see there is action under these consequences there is there no again
1:06:56
there are no actors here yes so in that sense yes he was and the other thing
1:07:03
fasting yeah how he turned fasting also as some kind of a weapon which others
1:07:10
called it as you know blackmailing sometimes but I would transform the people and when I was looking up today
1:07:19
children I believe in this man fasted literally thousands of people in the
1:07:26
country fasted you know families of the
1:07:32
families you know the whole family would fast maybe it may not be children the father mother grandparents they would
1:07:39
fast because once they heard the gandhi is fasting for some issue they could eat
1:07:44
so the whole country participated in this and how do you transform to them
1:07:50
you see transform them once you fast you know the kind of effect it has on me so
1:07:57
I would say please don't fast wait I'll come and sit with you let's talk it over you know like this this this is give a
1:08:06
simple example like a woman you know why who is been who was slapped by the
1:08:15
husband starts fasting she says I will not eat okay if you don't eat you know
1:08:23
the world is not going to fall I'll eat my lunch and he eats and the next day dinner also she doesn't eat and the
1:08:30
breakfast she doesn't eat and he you know that melts his heart and that exposes the brute in him the beast in
1:08:37
him and he becomes to see the beast in moon really the fasting of the human has
1:08:42
helped the man to see the beast within him the ones the moment he encounters the beast within him he goes and sits by
1:08:51
her if not at her feet at least by her and tells I am sorry that should have
1:08:57
done that together yes we can eat together so this is very small
1:09:04
I gave you you know so he explained this on a large scale this is what exactly
1:09:09
happened this exactly happened one man fasted and the in Calcutta
1:09:14
killing you know where hundreds and thousands had been killed just the previous two three days came to a
1:09:21
standstill which the Indian Army can do you know in other places because the
1:09:28
army was dispatched to put down the partition riots in 46 so fasting has
1:09:35
that again the fasting is tied up with your notion of truth you are himself
1:09:44
now of course people are saying fasting you know is very important to maintain health you should fast and things like
1:09:50
that that's a different matter perhaps that also has some valium
1:09:59
thank you if there are no other questions
1:10:07
[Music] he's wondering if you'd share with us what you will do with your play
1:10:13
he's written a play called the Mahatma I mean if I can yeah this the play is
1:10:19
based on the dark early days you know this 1946 riots before the you know
1:10:24
India Pakistan became independent and the riots broke out in Calcutta
1:10:30
you know what happened there was this clash going on between Congress party and the Muslim League the Muslim League
1:10:39
was you know was things were getting hotter and hotter they were not sure if
1:10:46
they would get there Pakistan so general went to the said you know we will have what you call the direct action day so
1:10:53
direct action day the Calcutta erupted into in flames a lot of killing and then
1:11:00
it went to now Kali where the Muslims were in you know in dominance and then
1:11:08
in Bihar you know all this happen so he first went to dark alley so that is a
1:11:14
very fascinating period because one because he brought some sanity into you
1:11:22
know this madhouse called India at that time really truly it's a fascinating
1:11:28
period because this is the last phase of his life and he felt deeply that he is
1:11:35
still far from God he still not come face to face with God why he has not
1:11:42
come face to face with God maybe there is a silly some ahankaara left in him maybe there is still some desire left in
1:11:50
him maybe there is some still some sexual desire left in him so therefore
1:11:57
if he is beautified all of all that then
1:12:02
he would have the spiritual power of a Mohammed he will have the spiritual
1:12:08
power of a Jesus Christ and the Buddha and the people will listen not only
1:12:15
and Gina even will listen and partition can be avoided so it's a really complex
1:12:23
situation that time he really believed that he's not pure enough so he got into
1:12:31
an experiment and this place more or less based on that face you know what
1:12:37
happened he and Manu Gandhi and other things all that was talked about openly
1:12:43
and done very openly like for instance Manu Gandhi and he
1:12:50
would sleep on the same bed merci now the sleep has a different
1:12:55
connotation a sexual connotation not necessarily they were lying together we could say no for others this became
1:13:04
something you know very scandalous thing why is he trying to do that and you
1:13:09
sometimes ask really apparently very silly question tomando Gandhi did you feel any did you
1:13:19
get any bad feelings he's an old man and she's just 18 years old girl no why will
1:13:26
she get bad ideas or feelings about but has this question and what I have done
1:13:31
in the play is this very important thing in the play which is also there in the
1:13:39
novel which I wrote on the on this period Manu Gandhi asks Gandhi
1:13:48
tell me one thing when you touch people I touch people
1:13:59
when we talk when we do all these activities we are all together I never feel that you're a man and I am
1:14:08
a good woman that's not there but Gandhi
1:14:14
Babu well do you want me to be a woman in this experiment he is blown away and he feels this is
1:14:23
wrong this is not correct and the whole experiment comes to an end I don't know
1:14:28
if that is how exactly it happened but I philosophy I know I thought I should
1:14:33
offer a philosophical truth in this historical narrative it was inevitable so the play is based on that so all the
1:14:42
time till is dead till is any you know even he's dead serve the purpose in and
1:14:50
I think he spoke to the effect that you know I'll be speaking from my grave when
1:14:55
he continues to speak from his grave even today so I will not go into the
1:15:02
details of the play this is what the play is all about so my question was
1:15:09
about this interesting kind of drawing on cultural resources that Gandhi was
1:15:14
doing so whether it is on renunciation or fasting or savathun Dharma or Ramraj
1:15:20
all of this existing cultural resources he was taking them experimenting they
1:15:25
were doing something else so selection uh for example or something else in a channel monastic tradition he made it
1:15:32
something else and he experimented with it and a lot of people kind of related to it because it was connecting to them
1:15:38
at a deeper cultural religious level the question that I have is also connecting
1:15:44
to now is when you draw on cultural resources you also know that they can be appropriated back in too many other ways
1:15:53
right it's not only an interesting experiment it can be a very problematic experiment also so now that lamb Raj has
1:15:59
been appropriated in a particular way is there a way reclaim it or is it when do we say that
1:16:06
now we cannot reclaim this this has just got such connotation such violent
1:16:12
connotation that now if we talk about Ramraj it's just impossible to similarly
1:16:18
with caste for example is just there were a lot of people trying to reclaim casts saying that oh let's not have the
1:16:25
existing let's call it let's have a different meaning to it but we will call it same but it has such deep meanings
1:16:33
that somehow some some things cannot be reclaimed also do you think yeah very
1:16:40
brilliant brilliant the way you asked to put the whole problem
1:16:47
you see we cannot run away from these such battles if Gandhi I appreciated
1:16:52
admire him for the way he renewed certain cultural values cultural
1:16:58
resources you know he picked from there and these symbols and icons were you
1:17:04
really wouldn't charge with newer revolutionary meaning you cannot deny
1:17:09
the try to somebody else they see but it has to be consistent it has to be
1:17:16
consistent this is what I see completely lacking I think putting down people
1:17:21
bashing up people intellectually I mean they bash up physically and we are to be
1:17:27
all the time the intellectuals are involved in intellectually bashing up somebody or the other I don't think this
1:17:33
is going to take us far Gandhi will do that Gandhi would say I would challenge you know come let us see history let us
1:17:40
see the books and there are attempts know for instance Prasanna has written this book called ramayana you know yeah
1:17:48
Graham in the Ramayana where he speaks about the environment there was this
1:17:54
tremendous awareness about the environment now I have written a story
1:17:59
called sambhoga Rama in that Rama is in search of himself my Rama is different you see there are
1:18:07
more who is in search of himself Rama who realises that the man
1:18:13
so inadequate and limited and he wants to grow beyond that he means sambuca and
1:18:20
sits of the feet of sambuca whom he is supposed to kill in valmiki here he
1:18:26
becomes his guru he wants to learn sit at his feet and learn a couple of things
1:18:31
so here is a rama who is like I don't know what this rama is I myself is the
1:18:37
Arthur but I don't know you know he's like a mystic he's like Gandhi who is trying to become
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woman and then go beyond and become go
1:18:48
around the gentle what is this Rama trying to do in this story so there are
1:18:55
different or - I think we like to reassert that Pia said that I think it's
1:19:00
okay so long as you have your Rama who is with bond and the Lubin and all that
1:19:06
stuff aggressive Rama you have but you can't compel me to have that Rama
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yes see I think that battle is still on we can't run away from that battle we
1:19:18
can't deny the right the right I have exercised they're the same right I cannot deny to somebody else so it's
1:19:25
going to be a long battle and Gandhi that did exactly that I think people
1:19:31
don't have patience and they are intellectually irresponsible I feel this is what I feel they are intellectually
1:19:37
really impatient and irresponsible you know this intellectual bashing it needs years and years of preparation you
1:19:45
know you will have to intellectually build this awareness it takes time it
1:19:50
takes time but you have you started the work I think some people like ours have
1:19:57
started the work I don't know about others thank you
1:20:03
[Music] so we spoke about the truths what are the characteristic characteristics of
1:20:10
the truth seeker and what actions one could take if one would want to walk on the quest of truth I think this is also
1:20:18
a very beautiful question because I love this question I will tell you why Baba these fellows who wear saffron
1:20:24
robes sit in the ashram is not the only truth seeker or the one who does this damn Azhar this white robe anybody is
1:20:32
everybody is a truth seeker I think you can wear the dress you want call yourself what you want but you can be a
1:20:40
truth seeker a truth seeker is one who I think this is how I characterize who is
1:20:46
brutally honest with himself and he is transparent he or she these are the two
1:20:54
qualities brutally honest with oneself because I think not with others with
1:21:00
oneself now why now unless you are honest but more brutally or honest with
1:21:08
yourself because you don't want to deceive yourself you don't want to deceive yourself people can go sit in a
1:21:15
corner meditate for 10 minutes come out and say I got such peace of mind you know you should also try meditation so
1:21:22
these are the lies we indulge in you understand I play a little game and say
1:21:28
it gives me tremendous pleasure did you really give you pleasure not that you
1:21:33
should go and keep broadcasting these things and talking about truth to yourself you should know where you are
1:21:40
what you are what your experiences are you should not lie to yourself if that
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is taken care of I think truth will come seeking you you
1:21:53
know it is a way of saying don't take it literally if you are if I am very honest
1:22:00
with myself you see brutally honest with myself but then I will not fool myself I'll not put fools of any but somebody
1:22:08
else and it changes you it changes you in
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that you yourself don't know I say it's like a power I tell you this
1:22:19
truthfulness this tremendous truthfulness is like a power that changes you that keeps you always alert
1:22:26
and open and you're never ashamed of accepting your mistakes so these are the
1:22:34
things some of these things that happen so that is characteristic of a seeker and that's how I understand Gandhi whoa
1:22:42
that is the reason why he let such an open absolutely open life transparent
1:22:49
life people who talk of truth I think should first start living the very
1:22:54
honest open life which is the most difficult thing that's what I think
1:23:00
characterizes a truth seeker and I refuse to associate that with religious
1:23:07
guys you know they are not the ones in fact they are the ones who have become
1:23:12
major obstacles thank you very much thank you for listening
1:23:19
[Applause]
1:23:24
[Music]
