2020/08/23

Religious Society of Friends I am profoundly troubled that the conversation was removed.

 

Lorcan Otway

YehtstthSetergpuonmsodany at 0rdliu0hnrie:14igdm
 
I think that a post has been removed in which a person who is not a Quaker asked if any of us supported Donald Trump. If I am wrong and it has not been removed, at the conclusion of this post, please recall Gilda Radner as Emily Litella saying “Oh, never mind.”
I believe, as likely did those who manage this page, that this was an attempt to put Donald Trump’s campaign points before us. However, the way many of responded was spirit led and a journey of the spirit into our own assumptions and controversies of the day. I found the commentary by some to be dismissive and less in the way of Friends, and as a somewhat elderly Friend who has found himself on Pastoral Care and Ministry and Council, tried to gently guide the conversation towards being open to those children of creation with whom we may not see the world in the same light.
I must say, I am profoundly troubled that the conversation was removed. This is, in my life long journey though our faith, not in the way of Friends but is, rather, in the way of dismissiveness and control which rises in this new world of isolation by computer, which gives the false impression of presence and communion. I have seen a growing impatience in Meetings where the power to pause and reflect has been replaced by the desire to negate and isolate.
This idea of negation should possibly be considered in our testimonies against killing. The act of killing is the silencing of the voice of God in the person removed from existence. It is close to the ideal that we listen to the voice of one heart which is not in unity and keep listening until we find commonality in the unity of the spirit. When clerking committees, I would often remind Friends of the humility of the Friends of my youth (you may remember me saying that I am older than dirt.) Older Friends when saying yea or nay to a proposed minute would say, “I hope so,” or “I think not.” In this form, yes was “I hope that we are in unity with God’s intentions for us.” And no was “I think that we are not in unity on this.” I hope we may consider a return to this individual and corporate humility.
I hope Friends here consider that removing posts is not in the spirit of our traditions of faith.
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  • Ruth Day Helgerud
    I believe the person who posted left the group. It is my understanding that in private FB groups only member posts are visible. So her post disappeared when she left–it was not removed
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    • Lorcan Otway
      Author
      I'm glad of that, and sorry so much important discussion was lost.
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    • Ruth Day Helgerud
      Lorcan Otway
       while it is no longer viewable, I would say it remains in the hearts and minds of those who participated in and read it. And the discussion will no doubt continue with your post and those to come
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  • Heather Brutz
    I totally disagree. If someone joins this group solely for the purpose of being a troll, their presence should not be welcome nor should they be given space to take up our time. Not being allowed to post in this group is NOT equivalent to killing them. It is equivalent to asking someone who is disruptive to leave the room. Furthermore, I do not believe that the individual in question was engaging us in good faith.
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    • Geoff Knowlton
      Heather Brutz
       you are speaking my mind.
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    • Laura Clement
      Heather Brutz
       I thought she might have been a troll, too. I looked at her FB profile, and it said she’d been a member of this group since 2017. That doesn’t mean anything for certain, though.
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  • Lorcan Otway
    Author
    Dear Friend Heather: One of the times I was so powerfully spoken to that I fought against delivering the message in meeting and quaked, but felt commanded to my feet, was on a similar subject. I have often thought of the stories Anna Curtis told us, when we were children in First Day School, of telling the “truth” to slave catchers, in words which were true by conveyed a misunderstanding to the point of falsehood. “Thee will find no slaves in this house” The Friend did not accept the concept of slavery and the people who had freed themselves were well hidden.
    It struck me that this always resulted in the house being searched, and the searches believing, what was true, that our forebears could lie through their teeth while saying things which were true. It seemed reviled to me that the answer to the question, “are there slaves in the house” should be, “I would never answer such a question, to help thee to hurt another and do harm to thy soul. I love thee too much to aid thee in harm to others and thyself.”
    The result would still be the search, the risk of being beaten, but there is always the possibility of opening the heart of another to the light of God. We as Friends should possibly never give up on the power of God to reach the heart of another.
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  • William Hobson
    I appreciate this Friend’s reminder that those with whom we share disagreements are God’s children too. We should take care to love them even as they are unlovable in their behavior or language. I also appreciate that too often we have substituted spiritual pride for the humility that our place in the universe might suggest for us.
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  • Mary Montfort Melchior
    I was an attendee at a Meeting frequently interrupted by pre-internet Trolls which included public speaking students seeing the gathering as a way to practice homework to people of other faiths who came to preach that everyone there was going to hell and had to repent and leave. The Meeting community has become efficient at standing in objection and forming a circle around the interloper with a corridor of Friends leading to the door.
    I don’t think it is inappropriate to make clear this is a place for Friends to share, not others. Friends have enough range of beliefs to keep us busy without help from others.
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    • Brad Stocker
      Mary Montfort Melchior
       We have had similar inappropriate behavior from actually unwell people. I wish our elders had taken the steps yours did.
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    • Lorcan Otway
      Author
      This has always been a challenge to us, from creating earlier silent meetings to have an alternative to "pop corn" meetings. One of my favorites stories of two Friends from my childhood, one Friend would give long, seemingly prepared messages. As he came out of Meeting after one particularly long message, the other old Friend said, "My Dear Young Friend. What a wonderful message. What a shame you did not sit down and stop talking once you gave it. "
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    • Annie Ewing
      Lorcan Otway
       that’s such classic Elder Quaker passive aggression... my grandmother in PA would have said something like this.
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    • William Hobson
      The other Quaker critique that cuts deep is “The Friend has given us a great deal to ponder.”
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    • Mary Montfort Melchior
      We want to be open to all but not open to those who have no respect for our practice, are too mentally unwell to take part constructively, or those who are abusive. It is a struggle for many Meetings.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Mary Montfort Melchior
       maybe we can strive to be open to all *people* but not open to all *behaviors*
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  • Annie Ewing
    I like what you are trying to achieve, 
    Lorcan Otway
     and I think I understand what you’re saying. Seems like the discussion was removed because of the original poster’s leaving the group. However, the image/voice/anything of trump represents violence, oppression, genocide, and pure hatred to many many people. I think a lot of these people, including myself, do not want to be in spaces where Trump is present and given air time. Its a reminder that much of our country thinks our lives and/or the lives of our loved ones aren’t worth having on this earth. To allow Trump positive stuff into perceived safe spaces can cause mental/emotional health issues for the people seeking refuge. This is the internet and we have the power of delete. I don’t know how much Trump propaganda this group should let in, but it did create a lot of bad feelings when it happened. Taking care of our immediate community during this pandemic is a good first priority, in my opinion.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Also, I don’t know exactly where to draw this line.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      There are definitely people in our immediate communities who are pro-life, who are registered Republicans and, yes, who voted for President Trump. Our spaces should be safe for them to share as well. If you want Trump free spaces, that’s a wonderful thing, but I don’t think it is right to get there by marginalizing those in our community who are sympathetic to the President.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       not giving air time to a homocidal dictator doesn’t seem like marginalizing anybody to me. But what do I know, I’m just a queer woman who is so grateful for the abortion I had that allowed me to have the family I have today. Perhaps you’re telling me I’m in the wrong group, because I’m sensitive to my rights and personhood being forcibly taken from me. Is that what you’re saying?
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Annie Ewing
      e If we can only engage with people who already agree with us, we are doomed to be ineffective at growing a movement and at meeting our own goals, whether spiritual or secular.
      Passive aggression and self-righteousness will never be effective ways of spreading the love of God. Trying to one up others by trying to prove you are more oppressed than they are will never be an effective way of standing in the power of the Spirit. And it’ll make people- even people who substantively agree with you - think you’re an unpleasant, disagreeable and selfish person. Even though none of those may be true!
      As it happens, as a Black mother of a Black son, I am very sensitive to the ways our system dehumanizes people. I wept when George Floyd was killed. As someone who married an immigrant, I have wept over toddlers being held in conditions that would be illegal to keep your dog in. As a now-single mom, I’m fighting with everything I have to keep my family above water, and knowing our president couldn’t care less is devastating.
      And - I believe that our enemies are never the flesh and blood human beings in front of us, however stuck they may be in webs of lies and wickedness. Our enemy is the deception and wickedness itself. And love, dialogue and prayer (not silencing and exclusion ) are the only way to triumph over them.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       I am not saying I am more oppressed than you, or anybody. I am saying I carry trauma, and being around Trump supporters ignites that trauma. And I don’t want to be in a space that encourages their dialogue because it is too stressful for me. I have the right to care for myself, and to ask a space what they allow within that space. Also, I don’t care if I am deemed “unpleasant, disagreeable, or selfish.” That’s just mean. But fine.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Annie Ewing
       i believe this group has rules posted somewhere. They’ll say pretty clearly whether expressing support for the president is allowed.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       also, I was not being passive aggressive. I was asking you a straightforward question. Do you believe I should be in this group, given the facts I told you about myself?
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       that’s helpful, I will check. Also, Everyone has the right to name their experiences. Just because someone belongs to a (truly) marginalized group and is naming their experiences is not one upmanship. It’s just facts about who we are. If we were doing that dance, it would look a lot different. But I have the right to name my pain, and I can choose as a grown person if I care what others who are uncomfortable with that pain think of me.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Annie Ewing
       my apologies. I assumed you were being passive aggressive but maybe that is because I disagree with the premise of your question.
      Trump can’t take your personhood away; he didn’t give it to you. Your personhood comes from God. As a Black person in America, if I were waiting for the state to fully recognize my personhood, I’d probably kill myself. Seriously.
      I think if your trauma is such that you can’t interact with people whose views you think are evil, the Internet in general is an unsafe place - particularly in a forum for a religious group that prides itself on its diversity of views. But at the end of the day, it’s got to be your decision based on your tolerance for risk.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       thank you for that perspective. I normally am not on the internet, or on Facebook and have not had a Facebook for many years. But I am here because of the pandemic. Today, there are fires all around us and we can’t go outside because of the smoke. I am incredibly safe, lucky, and privileged compared to many in my immediate area. I turned to this organization because Quakerism provides a sense of “home” and safety to me. But I think you’re right - I’m in the wrong forum. Feelings don’t seem to matter here as much as turning the other cheek and listening to right wing views. However, I never used the word or concept of “evil” because I don’t believe in evil. I just believe in the safety, equality, and right to exist of all beings, and the naming of and holding those accountable who try to take that away. I thought Quakers were about that.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Annie Ewing
       you’ll probably find lots of people in this group (maybe most!) who are more into feelings than into loving their enemies. I just don’t happen to be one of them.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       now whose being self righteous and passive aggressive? That’s cool though, you can have it. Whatever helps you feel close to your version of God.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Annie Ewing
       I wasn’t been passive aggressive. To me, as a Christian, “turning the other cheek” (your term) is inseparable from “loving your enemies.” What did I miss? Did you not refer to turning the other cheek? Not all Friends are Christian, especially in this group.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       “more into their feelings than loving their enemies” is like saying there is some short coming by being aware and sensitive to others feelings. “In your feelings” is a term that isn’t usually a compliment.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Also, I’m not Christian. Anyways this IS becoming a bit much for me now, especially with all the insults, so I’m out.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Annie Ewing
       I said “into feelings” not “into their feelings.” I’m not cool enough to use “into their feelings” the way you mean it! You said “feelings don’t seem to matter as much as turning the other cheek “ - I was just trying to convey that that is … 
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    • Annie Ewing
      Adria Gulizia
       It does. Thank you. That makes sense. Alright I am officially done with the internet today. I preferred Quakers when we were all together and silent!!! (Just kidding.) But I am done here for the day. It’s been nice hearing your truth and perspective. There is always issue with texting / typing as emotion and meaning is hard to convey.
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    • Adria Gulizia
      Annie Ewing
       Take care, stay safe. Blessings to you and yours in your situation. It must be terrifying
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  • Susan Freedman
    If I remember correctly (huge if) the OP was a Quaker T supporter. It would have interested me to hear how he or she
    managed this.
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    • Jenny Shields
      She never responded.
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    • Lorcan Otway
      Author
      On behalf of all the other old folks here... what is an OP, please?
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  • Lorcan Otway
    Author
    Dear Friend 
    Annie Ewing
     : We Friends have always had a rough road. Unlike the Old Order Amish, we chose to live in the world but not be of the world. So, for example, during the holocaust we had Friends who met with Hitler and bargained for the lives of Jewish sisters and brothers. To do this, we needed to find, in our hearts, the ability to be present to someone who had embraced the worst evil into which humans can fall. There is always the option to not read that which thee may find hard to read. In my own life, I have found our faith a call to be present to those, not only those neighbors who are oppressed by poverty and prejudice, but to be present to the oppressor, to attempt to awaken them to hope, as this is a proactive approach to evil rather than a reactive approach to evil. Not all of us are called in this way, but I don’t think we should stand in each other’s way for fear of hurt. I certainly know hurt in my own life. As a war photographer I lost friends and saw terrible things, as a Romani American I see neglect and oppression of my family, I’ve suffered violence as a child and understand the desire to be not of the world and not in the world. But, some of us must face the challenges of the Lamb’s war or we will lose the few safe places where we find solace.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Lorcan Otway
       thank you for this perspective and history, I am going to sit with this for a bit.
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  • David J. Coyle
    I'm sure there HAS to be a "Quakers For Trump" FB group somewhere she could have sought out before she posted here, if she was TRULY seeking like-minded Friends...
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    • Lorcan Otway
      Author
      I should not say this... but it is too good a joke to pass up... If thee remembers the White folks with signs, "Blacks For Trump" perhaps we might start the Quakers For Trump, just to be kind... =-D
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    • Lorcan Otway
      Author
      My apologies to any Friends who may be offended by the joke, My dad was Irish, and on that side of the family, we can't pass up a good joke.
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  • Fiona Mary
    Absolutely I could not agree more with the writer of the above post.
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  • Steven P Rice
    I would like to remind us all that the early Quakers were not above kicking in the door of a church and admonishing the pastor for false teachings. Jesus himself whipped the money traders in the temple. There is a time to step up and be bold when somet… 
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    • Douglas Marvi Vaughn
      Steven P Rice
       Jesus did not whip the Money Changers, he used the cord to chase out the animals. John 2:15 “So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle;”
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  • Brian Zahn
    Well said. I do not see political parties in black and white nor wrong or right simply by red and blue, black or white. Personally, I felt there were many opinions given contemptuous of other's opinion with this thread, making me seriously consider abandoning this group. I feel Lorcan makes a statement well worthy of consideration for members of this group. If your reply is condescending perhaps your idea of being a Quaker is different than mine.
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  • Steve Capra
    I didn't see the post. But I feel that we need to search for whatever truth there may be in a ministry, and hope we find something. The doctrine of the American conservative movement, largely so hateful, is morally complicated by its position on abortion.
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  • Rd Flowers
    I suggest that with a potentially harmful post, before engaging, friends check the profile of the poster. If they haven't been here more than a few days, and their history of posting in general shows untruth and conspiracy theories, we need not labor with them.
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  • Rich Accetta-Evans
    I don't recall the original thread, so I may be off base here, but if all the person did was ask if any of us support Trump I don't think that makes her a "troll". Even if she supports Trump herself she might or might not be open to other points of view. Supporting Trump isn't always the same thing as supporting his actual behavior. In some cases the support may rest on different sources of information than most of us rely on. Different perceptions of what the alternatives are, etc.
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  • Rd Flowers
    That's why I suggest checking their profile and prior postings. We much tend to presume sincerity -- I suggest that it needs to be rebuttable, and often insincere people are visible as such when checked out in this way.
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  • Annie Ewing
    If the Religious Society of Friends is no longer prioritizing anti war efforts, womb holder’s right to choose what goes in and comes out of their wombs, LGBTQ+ people, BIPOC, equality for all people and democracy, maybe this isn’t the right place for me anymore. Though my parents and grandparents were Pennsylvania Quakers, maybe there isn’t a place here for me. Perhaps things have changed.
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    • Cindy Johnson
      Annie Ewing
       things have changed, the world has changed. Scripture has not changed. We all bring unique gifts to the table, we need your valuable gifts now more than ever. Please dont give up.
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    • Alex Collins
      I often wonder the same thing, coming from a Yearly Meeting with people from all walks, and seeing how they talk about LGBTQ+ people for example. I wonder if this is really the place for me, where this kind of behaviour is given a platform. But one thing that has always kept me, is if there was just one young Friend who may be closeted or for other reasons be unsuspectingly at the end of a hateful speech, that I'd be there to show them that it doesn't have to be like that, and that they have worth in who they are. There's definitely people who've needed someone like me, I'm sure there's others out there who'd appreciate someone like you.
      But, also, if you need to take a step away for a time that's very valid. Dealing with people who look down on certain groups isn't easy. Recharge, but don't give up ✌️✌️
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    • Annie Ewing
      Thank you Alex, this is helpful. I appreciate it. The compassion, understanding, and kind words mean a lot. Also, recharging is a good idea.
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    • Annie Ewing
      Cindy Johnson
       thank you Cindy. I appreciate that. And I appreciate your gifts and compassion, too.
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  • Claire Adamson
    People have a right to their opinions on both sides of the fence.
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  • Jean Mark Kaufman
    If a fish rises to the bait, it ends up dinner. Hard not to do so, but the op seemed to be baiting the water.
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  • Anthony J. Kirk
    I really don't want any replies to my comment here. As a transgender, bisexual pastor, it is hard for me to deal with Trump supporters. Some are my friends, and I won't shame people in my congregation who voted for him. And yet, I think the feelings of marginalized people like me are important. I deserve to be loved and cared about. And a lot of the political rhetoric of today certainly reminds me that people in power and those who stand behind them see me as less than human. I know many Friends are conservative in the programmed branch. Quite frankly I was lucky that a church called me at all. So when those of us on the margins are hurt and upset by political postings about people who cause us harm, I hope our pain will be heard and accepted. But doesn't seem like there is much room for that.
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  • Siwsan Gimprich
    Many thanks for this. 🕯🙏🏻
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  • Anna Rachel
    As an English Quaker, I was very curious, especially as the Religious Society of Friends in the UK has a reputation for being very liberal. In my lifetime, it has held sanctuary for refugees, campaigned for equal marriage and campaigned against the war in Iraq and other conflicts. Climate change was also a huge part of discussions in Sunday school
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  • Trebs Thompson
    This. Thank you. This friend speaks much of my mind.
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  • Rick Conrad
    IMO - if trump seizes power here in the U.S., the world may face not only a nearly complete failure to avoid increasing Climate catastrophes; but ALSO a seriously and very MAJOR loss of control over the COVID-19 Pandemic, and a greatly increased potential for global nuclear proliferation and wars... Persecutions are ALREADY way too common. Fascism will most likely become intractable.
    As nooses tighten...
    Fascists frighten!!
    Keeping Democracy is a goal!
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  • Georgia Delaney
    Thank you administration for taking down the Trump post.
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  • Julie Lahr
    Your words remind me of our peace testimony. I am grateful to the elders that granted me grace and room to grow in Christ in my own way. It is then my calling to grant grace to those around me. My heart stretches, sometimes painfully, every time I make room at the table for all. Especially those who I think should be excluded. Gods table is for everyone not just me.
    I wish your post was shareable. In today’s world I think many would benefit from this point of view.
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