2020/09/12

希修 Delusion is a defilement or unskillful quality. But is it a 'bad' karma?

 希修

1du0htS clSpooeptncsguSemsmbeonr getart 0uiehlt6et:d59  · 

Good morning, everyone! I have another question.

.

Delusion is a defilement or unskillful quality. But is it a 'bad' karma? 

Given that volition/intention is the important part of karma, then it follows that delusion is not a bad karma, for no one is delusional because (s)he has the volition/intention to be delusional. Nevertheless, one's delusion may burden or even harm other people. How could it be not a bad karma then? Also, if delusion leads to unfortunate rebirths, shouldn't we say it is a bad karma? 

.

I have had this question for a long time, and I have so far read 8 books by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, but haven't yet found a clue. Does any of you know what Thanissaro Bhikkhu would say on this? 

.

Best,

Heesoo

Comments

Jonathan Shoemaker

Unskillful kamma is intention that is based on greed, aversion, and/or delusion. I remember TB talking about good intentions not being enough. They have to be skillful intentions because intentions based on delusion are unskillful and lead to unpleasant results.

 · Reply · 2 d · Edited

Joseph Pokorski

Wouldn't it be the case that the resultant actions caused by delusion would be the cause of kamma? Delusion being the result itself of unskillful behavior and a root of further unskillful actions but not action itself.

 · Reply · 2 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/NobleStrategy/Section0006.html

The Road to Nirvāṇa Is Paved with Skillful Intentions | Noble Strategy

DHAMMATALKS.ORG

The Road to Nirvāṇa Is Paved with Skillful Intentions | Noble Strategy

The Road to Nirvāṇa Is Paved with Skillful Intentions | Noble Strategy

 · Reply · 2 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

"To train our intentions in this way, though, requires a deep level of self-awareness. Why is that? If you look carefully at the reasons for our disillusionment with good intentions, you’ll find that they all come down to delusion. And as the Buddha tells us, delusion is one of the three main roots for unskillful intentions, the other two being greed and aversion. These unskillful roots lie entangled with skillful roots—states of mind that are free of greed, aversion, and delusion—in the soil of the untrained heart. If we can’t isolate and dig up the unskillful roots, we can never be fully sure of our intentions. Even when a skillful intention seems foremost in the mind, the unskillful roots can quickly send up shoots that blind us as to what’s actually going on."

 · Reply · 2 d · Edited

Jonathan Shoemaker

https://tricycle.org/magazine/thanissaro-bhikkhu-karma/

Everything You Wanted to Know About Karma

TRICYCLE.ORG

Everything You Wanted to Know About Karma

Everything You Wanted to Know About Karma

 · Reply · 2 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

"For an intention to give good results, it has to be free of greed, aversion, and delusion. Now, it’s possible for an intention to be well-meaning but based on delusion, in which case it would lead to bad results: believing, for instance, that there are times when the compassionate course of action would be to kill or to tell a lie, or for a teacher to have sex with a student. To give good results, an action has to be not only good but also skillful."

 · Reply · 2 d

Write a reply...


Jonathan Shoemaker

It is not that you intend to be greedy or be averse or be delusional. It is that you intend to do X and that intention has greed or aversion or delusion as its motivating force.

 · Reply · 2 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

For example, you intend to chop down a tree to build a kuti for a bhikkhu. That is wholesome, it is motivated by non-greed, non-aversion, and non-delusion. But when the tree falls it smashes a bug that you didn't see. That is not intentional killing. It was not your intention to kill. Thus, no bad kamma. That is what it means that intention is the heart of kamma. The person here did not intend to be non-delusional or non-greedy or non-averse. He intended to chop down a tree for use in building a bhikkhu's kuti, and that intention was motivated by non-delusion or non-greed or non-aversion.

 · Reply · 2 d

希修

Author

Ok, then would the following be an accurate summary of main points?

(1) Delusion in itself is not a bad karma.

(2) But delusion is one of the main roots for bad intentions/karmas to rise from.

 · Reply · 2 d · Edited

Jonathan Shoemaker

I would put it like this: any thinking (taking up a mind object and feeding it, cultivating it), speaking, or acting motivated by delusion is unskillful kamma. I would not think about delusion in itself or greed in itself or aversion in itself apart from the three types of action.

 · Reply · 2 d

希修

Author

I also heard somewhere (I forgot where) that, if you die with a deluded mind, it will take you to a rebirth in a low realm. Am I correct?

 · Reply · 2 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

As delusion is an unwholesome root, I would think so. Based on what you've read in the Canon, wouldn't you believe that a mind filled with greed or aversion at the moment of death would lead to a lower birth? Why wouldn't this also be so of delusion?

 · Reply · 2 d

希修

Author

Right. Somehow I thought only 'karmas' in and of themselves would bring a consequence such as rebirth. Thank you so much for having cleared my confusions, Jonathan! 🙏

 · Reply · 2 d · Edited

Jonathan Shoemaker

希修 Mental kamma is a type of kamma

 · Reply · 2 d

Write a reply...


Hk Tan

To me, I tend to understand that delusion is both the result of past kamma (a current state of becoming conditioned by our past actions) as well as present kamma as well (delusion is a kind of becoming, and becoming itself is also a kind of kamma that keep us in samsara). Are my understanding correct?

 · Reply · 2 d · Edited

Jonathan Shoemaker

My understanding is that whatever delusion arises does so based on past kamma. Then what you do with that is present kamma. If you have sati and panya working you see it as delusion and abandon it right there or not long after that. Otherwise you may t… See more

 · Reply · 2 d

Hk Tan

Sadhu. Thank you for your explanation.

Brother Jonathan and 希修, please take care n stay healthy.

 · Reply · 2 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

Hk Tan Thank you too, friend! May you be healthy and well too!

 · Reply · 2 d

Write a reply...


希修

Author

One more question. If someone works at a nuclear power plant, and, just by a pure mistake, he did something wrong, which results in hundreds people dying. In this case, he had no bad intention, and yet the consequence is far from insignificant. He still won't be subject to a bad karma in this case because he did not have a bad intention?

 · Reply · 2 d · Edited

Joseph Pokorski

希修 The volition of an action is derived from intent. Although kamma will still be reaped from this action, the kamma is not the same as if he harbored ill will and intentionally did it. Suppose we look at murder vs manslaughter in terms of legality.

 · Reply · 2 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

The short answer is yes. If the action that led to the incident was not motivated or colored by greed, hatred, or delusion then it will not lead to unpleasant result for that individual. To whatever extent greed, hatred, and/or delusion was present in … See more

 · Reply · 2 d · Edited

Jonathan Shoemaker

Also it is important to consider the person's mental reaction to the result of the mistake. If the person delights in the destruction, then that is bad mental kamma that brings bad results. But if the person is not pleased with the destruction, has com… See more

 · Reply · 1 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

希修 How would you answer this question?

 · Reply · 1 d

希修

Author

Jonathan Shoemaker Your answer makes sense 100%, logically anyway. But my heart/intuition is still not quite sure. I feel that I have to keep thinking and reflecting on this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. 🙂

 · Reply · 1 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

希修 Remember the Buddha said that kamma is so complex that one could go crazy from thinking about the details. It is enough to know that non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion lead to desirable results and do one's best to think, speak, and act with those as motivating factors and abandon greed, hatred, and delusion whenever possible. As for mistakes, we should be as careful as possible to avoid them, understand some will still happen anyway, be forgiving and accepting of them, and learn from them so we do not repeat them. No need to worry about anything else that might come from a mistake.

 · Reply · 1 d · Edited

希修

Author

Jonathan Shoemaker How wise! Thank you very much! 🙂

 · Reply · 1 d

希修

Author

Jonathan Shoemaker I keep reading Thanissaro Bhikkhu's books at home, but, doing chores around the house, I listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi's lectures on You Tube. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's lecture on a part of Majihima Nikaya which I listened to yesterday, he said that karma is just one layer of causality. And this point seems to clear all my confusions.

For example, if I make a serious mistake on job with no particular intention/volition (*), I will have to go through consequences such as being fired or even sued, which will take care of my 'action' (including words and mental states). But karma is a particular causality to deal only with the intention/volition. Thus, as you previously answered to my question, in the above case (*), there won't be a karma. I have to deal with whatever consequences in this life, and that's it.

Similarly, if I die with a deluded mind, this 'action' (being the mental state in this case) will lead me to an unfortunate rebirth through the natural principle of causality. Yet, since it was not my intention/volition to be deluded, we won't necessarily call this 'karma'.

In summary, all my confusions resulted from the fact that I mistakenly thought 'karma' and 'causality' were one and the same thing. However, as long as we take karma only as one kind/part of causality, then my questions disappear. Also, the theory of karma seems to show us how powerful our mind is. We have to deal with not only the consequences of our actions but also the consequences of our intentions/volitions which produced such actions.

 · Reply · 4 h · Edited

Jonathan Shoemaker

希修 Thanks for your analysis! I wonder what else Bhikkhu Bodhi attributes to causality? Could you explain. You see, in every moment there is not just one specific result of one specific kamma at play. There are multiple from various times in the past plus the present, so I tend to believe the mistake would have been conditioned by some past kamma or even kammas and allowed or supported as well by current kamma or even kammas. There is a sutta in which the Buddha says everything that comes through the sense doors is the result of past kamma and a sutta in which he says there are other natural factors. As TB has said, after 2,500 years of transmission, not every sutta in the Canon is a perfect reflection of the Buddha's actual words. We have to reflect on our own and put things into practice for ourselves until we know directly. My current (and indeed long-term firm conviction) is that everything that comes through the sense doors is conditioned at least in some way by past kamma, and that it is impossible that anything could come through the sense doors if not allowed by past kamma--think of the Dhammapada verse about poison in the hand that is not cut verses poison in the hand that has an open wound. Kamma is complex and non-linear. It is sufficient to do our best at Right Effort and the rest of the path, having a firm conviction in our capacity for action and the importance of the results of our action. That is still my firm conviction. 🙂🙏

 · Reply · 3 h

Jonathan Shoemaker

希修 Remember, you cannot look at the mistake divorced from past kamma--that of the one making the mistake and those affected by it. Nothing happens on a blank kammic slate or in a kammic vacuum... we have so much past kamma that we bring into every moment.

 · Reply · 3 h · Edited

希修

Author

That (karma being only one layer of causality) was the sole point I had not previously known among what Bhikkhu Bodhi said in that lecture. He mentioned that he himself cannot be sure if every single thing we experience in this life is a result of past karma - I guess this is because the interactions of past karmas and our present karma/choice are very complex as you pointed out. He also added that we will indeed go crazy if we think too much about this topic. But I agree with you and suspect that even a 'pure mistake' *might* be one last step for a certain past karma to be totally dissolved. Anyway, now I feel as if I now know as much as I can digest and as much as I need to know to practice. Thank you for the conversation. 🙏

 · Reply · 3 h · Edited

Write a reply...


Antony Woods

badge icon

An action (kamma) performed by an arahant bears no kammic fruit. This sutta explains why: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_34.html

AN 3:34  Nidāna Sutta | Causes

DHAMMATALKS.ORG

AN 3:34  Nidāna Sutta | Causes

AN 3:34  Nidāna Sutta | Causes

 · Reply · 1 d

希修

Author

Thank you. 🙏

 · Reply · 1 d

Jonathan Shoemaker

🙏🙏🙏

 · Reply · 1 d

Write a reply...




---

Good morning, everyone! I have another question.
.
Delusion is a defilement or unskillful quality. But is it a 'bad' karma? Given that volition/intention is the important part of karma, then it follows that delusion is not a bad karma, for no one is delusional because (s)he has the volition/intention to be delusional. Nevertheless, one's delusion may burden or even harm other people. How could it be not a bad karma then? Also, if delusion leads to unfortunate rebirths, shouldn't we say it is a bad karma?
.
I have had this question for a long time, and I have so far read 8 books by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, but haven't yet found a clue. Does any of you know what Thanissaro Bhikkhu would say on this?
.
Best,
Heesoo
3
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Comments

  • Jonathan Shoemaker
    Unskillful kamma is intention that is based on greed, aversion, and/or delusion. I remember TB talking about good intentions not being enough. They have to be skillful intentions because intentions based on delusion are unskillful and lead to unpleasant results.
    1
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
    • Edited
  • Joseph Pokorski
    Wouldn't it be the case that the resultant actions caused by delusion would be the cause of kamma? Delusion being the result itself of unskillful behavior and a root of further unskillful actions but not action itself.
    1
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
  • The Road to Nirvāṇa Is Paved with Skillful Intentions | Noble Strategy
    DHAMMATALKS.ORG
    The Road to Nirvāṇa Is Paved with Skillful Intentions | Noble Strategy
    The Road to Nirvāṇa Is Paved with Skillful Intentions | Noble Strategy
    1
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      "To train our intentions in this way, though, requires a deep level of self-awareness. Why is that? If you look carefully at the reasons for our disillusionment with good intentions, you’ll find that they all come down to delusion. And as the Buddha tells us, delusion is one of the three main roots for unskillful intentions, the other two being greed and aversion. These unskillful roots lie entangled with skillful roots—states of mind that are free of greed, aversion, and delusion—in the soil of the untrained heart. If we can’t isolate and dig up the unskillful roots, we can never be fully sure of our intentions. Even when a skillful intention seems foremost in the mind, the unskillful roots can quickly send up shoots that blind us as to what’s actually going on."
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
      • Edited
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      "For an intention to give good results, it has to be free of greed, aversion, and delusion. Now, it’s possible for an intention to be well-meaning but based on delusion, in which case it would lead to bad results: believing, for instance, that there are times when the compassionate course of action would be to kill or to tell a lie, or for a teacher to have sex with a student. To give good results, an action has to be not only good but also skillful."
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
  • Jonathan Shoemaker
    It is not that you intend to be greedy or be averse or be delusional. It is that you intend to do X and that intention has greed or aversion or delusion as its motivating force.
    1
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
  • Jonathan Shoemaker
    For example, you intend to chop down a tree to build a kuti for a bhikkhu. That is wholesome, it is motivated by non-greed, non-aversion, and non-delusion. But when the tree falls it smashes a bug that you didn't see. That is not intentional killing. It was not your intention to kill. Thus, no bad kamma. That is what it means that intention is the heart of kamma. The person here did not intend to be non-delusional or non-greedy or non-averse. He intended to chop down a tree for use in building a bhikkhu's kuti, and that intention was motivated by non-delusion or non-greed or non-aversion.
    1
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
  • 希修
    Author
    Ok, then would the following be an accurate summary of main points?
    (1) Delusion in itself is not a bad karma.
    (2) But delusion is one of the main roots for bad intentions/karmas to rise from.
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
    • Edited
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      I would put it like this: any thinking (taking up a mind object and feeding it, cultivating it), speaking, or acting motivated by delusion is unskillful kamma. I would not think about delusion in itself or greed in itself or aversion in itself apart from the three types of action.
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
  • 希修
    Author
    I also heard somewhere (I forgot where) that, if you die with a deluded mind, it will take you to a rebirth in a low realm. Am I correct?
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      As delusion is an unwholesome root, I would think so. Based on what you've read in the Canon, wouldn't you believe that a mind filled with greed or aversion at the moment of death would lead to a lower birth? Why wouldn't this also be so of delusion?
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
    • 希修
      Author
      Right. Somehow I thought only 'karmas' in and of themselves would bring a consequence such as rebirth. Thank you so much for having cleared my confusions, Jonathan! 🙏
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
      • Edited
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      希修
       Mental kamma is a type of kamma
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
  • Hk Tan
    To me, I tend to understand that delusion is both the result of past kamma (a current state of becoming conditioned by our past actions) as well as present kamma as well (delusion is a kind of becoming, and becoming itself is also a kind of kamma that keep us in samsara). Are my understanding correct?
    1
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
    • Edited
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      My understanding is that whatever delusion arises does so based on past kamma. Then what you do with that is present kamma. If you have sati and panya working you see it as delusion and abandon it right there or not long after that. Otherwise you may t… 
      See more
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
    • Hk Tan
      Sadhu. Thank you for your explanation.
      Brother Jonathan and 希修, please take care n stay healthy.
      2
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      Hk Tan
       Thank you too, friend! May you be healthy and well too!
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
  • 希修
    Author
    One more question. If someone works at a nuclear power plant, and, just by a pure mistake, he did something wrong, which results in hundreds people dying. In this case, he had no bad intention, and yet the consequence is far from insignificant. He still won't be subject to a bad karma in this case because he did not have a bad intention?
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 2 d
    • Edited
    Hide 11 replies
    • Joseph Pokorski
      希修
       The volition of an action is derived from intent. Although kamma will still be reaped from this action, the kamma is not the same as if he harbored ill will and intentionally did it. Suppose we look at murder vs manslaughter in terms of legality.
      2
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      The short answer is yes. If the action that led to the incident was not motivated or colored by greed, hatred, or delusion then it will not lead to unpleasant result for that individual. To whatever extent greed, hatred, and/or delusion was present in … 
      See more
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 2 d
      • Edited
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      Also it is important to consider the person's mental reaction to the result of the mistake. If the person delights in the destruction, then that is bad mental kamma that brings bad results. But if the person is not pleased with the destruction, has com… 
      See more
      2
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 1 d
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      希修
       How would you answer this question?
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 1 d
    • 希修
      Author
      Jonathan Shoemaker
       Your answer makes sense 100%, logically anyway. But my heart/intuition is still not quite sure. I feel that I have to keep thinking and reflecting on this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. 🙂
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 1 d
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      希修
       Remember the Buddha said that kamma is so complex that one could go crazy from thinking about the details. It is enough to know that non-greed, non-hatred, and non-delusion lead to desirable results and do one's best to think, speak, and act with those as motivating factors and abandon greed, hatred, and delusion whenever possible. As for mistakes, we should be as careful as possible to avoid them, understand some will still happen anyway, be forgiving and accepting of them, and learn from them so we do not repeat them. No need to worry about anything else that might come from a mistake.
      2
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 1 d
      • Edited
    • 希修
      Author
      Jonathan Shoemaker
       How wise! Thank you very much! 🙂
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 1 d
    • 希修
      Author
      Jonathan Shoemaker
       I keep reading Thanissaro Bhikkhu's books at home, but, doing chores around the house, I listen to Bhikkhu Bodhi's lectures on You Tube. In Bhikkhu Bodhi's lecture on a part of Majihima Nikaya which I listened to yesterday, he said that karma is just one layer of causality. And this point seems to clear all my confusions.
      For example, if I make a serious mistake on job with no particular intention/volition (*), I will have to go through consequences such as being fired or even sued, which will take care of my 'action' (including words and mental states). But karma is a particular causality to deal only with the intention/volition. Thus, as you previously answered to my question, in the above case (*), there won't be a karma. I have to deal with whatever consequences in this life, and that's it.
      Similarly, if I die with a deluded mind, this 'action' (being the mental state in this case) will lead me to an unfortunate rebirth through the natural principle of causality. Yet, since it was not my intention/volition to be deluded, we won't necessarily call this 'karma'.
      In summary, all my confusions resulted from the fact that I mistakenly thought 'karma' and 'causality' were one and the same thing. However, as long as we take karma only as one kind/part of causality, then my questions disappear. Also, the theory of karma seems to show us how powerful our mind is. We have to deal with not only the consequences of our actions but also the consequences of our intentions/volitions which produced such actions.
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 4 h
      • Edited
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      希修
       Thanks for your analysis! I wonder what else Bhikkhu Bodhi attributes to causality? Could you explain. You see, in every moment there is not just one specific result of one specific kamma at play. There are multiple from various times in the past plus the present, so I tend to believe the mistake would have been conditioned by some past kamma or even kammas and allowed or supported as well by current kamma or even kammas. There is a sutta in which the Buddha says everything that comes through the sense doors is the result of past kamma and a sutta in which he says there are other natural factors. As TB has said, after 2,500 years of transmission, not every sutta in the Canon is a perfect reflection of the Buddha's actual words. We have to reflect on our own and put things into practice for ourselves until we know directly. My current (and indeed long-term firm conviction) is that everything that comes through the sense doors is conditioned at least in some way by past kamma, and that it is impossible that anything could come through the sense doors if not allowed by past kamma--think of the Dhammapada verse about poison in the hand that is not cut verses poison in the hand that has an open wound. Kamma is complex and non-linear. It is sufficient to do our best at Right Effort and the rest of the path, having a firm conviction in our capacity for action and the importance of the results of our action. That is still my firm conviction. 🙂🙏
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 3 h
    • Jonathan Shoemaker
      希修
       Remember, you cannot look at the mistake divorced from past kamma--that of the one making the mistake and those affected by it. Nothing happens on a blank kammic slate or in a kammic vacuum... we have so much past kamma that we bring into every moment.
      1
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 3 h
      • Edited
    • 希修
      Author
      That (karma being only one layer of causality) was the sole point I had not previously known among what Bhikkhu Bodhi said in that lecture. He mentioned that he himself cannot be sure if every single thing we experience in this life is a result of past karma - I guess this is because the interactions of past karmas and our present karma/choice are very complex as you pointed out. He also added that we will indeed go crazy if we think too much about this topic. But I agree with you and suspect that even a 'pure mistake' *might* be one last step for a certain past karma to be totally dissolved. Anyway, now I feel as if I now know as much as I can digest and as much as I need to know to practice. Thank you for the conversation. 🙏
      • Like
      • Reply
      • 3 h
      • Edited
  • Antony Woods
    badge icon
    An action (kamma) performed by an arahant bears no kammic fruit. This sutta explains why: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN3_34.html
    AN 3:34  Nidāna Sutta | Causes
    DHAMMATALKS.ORG
    AN 3:34  Nidāna Sutta | Causes
    AN 3:34  Nidāna Sutta | Causes
    2
    • Like
    • Reply
    • 1 d
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