Some discoveries change the way we view the human body.
In 2021, researchers described what they saw when they had examined skin-biopsy samples that included tattoos: The ink particles had traveled deeper than anticipated, through inte
rstitial spaces into the tissue underneath the skin, or the fascia.
“That wasn’t supposed to happen,” Neil Theise, a professor of pathology at New York University and a senior author of the paper reporting the results, told me.
The existence of an apparent conduit between skin and the fascia beneath it — two tissue layers not known to connect with each other in this way — broke accepted anatomic boundaries.
The researchers also found that the same was true for other previously unknown microscopic connections between organs in the abdomen.
That interstitial spaces exist in and under the skin and between and around the body’s organs had been observed going back more than a century, but they were assumed to exist in isolation from one another, like a patchwork quilt.
Theise and his colleagues published their first observations of these spaces in 2018. Their findings in the 2021 tattoo-ink study implied that the body’s interstitial spaces were parts of a vast interconnected whole — what scientists now call the interstitium.
“This is clearly a third bodily system for the circulation of fluids,” in addition to the cardiovascular and lymphatic systems, says Rebecca Wells, a professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania and a senior author of the study. The human body suddenly looked less like a patchwork quilt and more like a knitted blanket.
The implications of a new circulatory system — for our health, and for our understanding of our own bodies — are potentially enormous.
=
The Human Body’s Hidden Pathways
By Avraham Z. Cooper
Illustrations by Jérôme Berthier
May 11, 2026
Share full article1.1k
For 400 years, anatomists have understood there to be two systems in the body that function as transportation networks for cells, electrolytes, nutrients and hormones: the lymphatic system and the cardiovascular system.
The lymphatic system, which removes excess fluid from tissues, was observed as early as 1622 by the Italian physician Gaspare Aselli when he vivisected a dog.
The workings of the cardiovascular system, in which the heart pumps blood through arteries, capillaries and veins, were first described in 1628 by the English physician and anatomist William Harvey.
We have also known, starting with its description more than a century ago by an American anatomist and pathologist named Franklin Mall, that a fibrous connective tissue enwraps and undergirds the internal structures in the human body: organs, nerves, blood vessels, bone, muscle.
This ubiquitous fibrous tissue, the fascia, functions in the body the way studs frame the rooms in a house. But these studs and the interstitial spaces inside them weren’t thought to be interconnected within and between organs — to form an interstitium network — until Theise and Wells’s study was published.
To get a sense of the inside of the interstitium, Wells suggests picturing a sheet of chicken wire embedded in a gel.
The chicken wire represents collagen, a type of protein. Inside the interstitium, bundles of collagen interlock with one another, providing strength and structure.
The spongelike gel, able to absorb and store water, is made from hyaluronic acid and fills the spaces between the collagen bundles.
Fluid, cells and other molecules slowly flow through this gel.
In this new view of the body’s interstitial spaces, these microscopic areas connect to one another within a larger web, through which fluid moves before re-entering the lymphatic and cardiovascular systems,
like groundwater flowing through the Earth’s crust before returning to the surface in springs and rivers.
==
Tipping these specialized cells toward the production of more healthy fat could offer a target for potential diabetes therapies.
Wells, who is a gastroenterologist, says that interstitial links may help explain why some patients with inflammatory bowel diseases, particularly ulcerative colitis, develop an autoimmune disease that affects the bile ducts.
It has been theorized that in inflammatory bowel disease immune cells, gut bacteria or bacterial fragments that migrate from the intestines to the liver end up reaching the bile ducts through the interstitium.
An interconnected interstitium also seems to play a critical role in cancer metastasis. It is well established that cancer cells can spread to the rest of the body by hijacking the lymphatic system.
But evidence suggests that tumor cells may reach the lymphatic system by first navigating through the fluid flowing through the interstitium, like fish swimming downstream.
Numerous cancer types have been seen spreading through the interstitium, breaking down hyaluronic acid as they spread. These include breast, lung, colon, pancreatic and skin cancers, among others, according to Theise.
A drug called narmafotinib, which disrupts how tumor cells invade and move through the interstitium, has shown promise in early clinical trials for treating pancreatic cancer, when combined with chemotherapy.
The discovery of a third circulatory system could transform our understanding of how the human body works. And it may also change how we view our own bodies in relation to other biological systems.
Wells points out that hydra — tiny freshwater invertebrates — have fluid-filled connective tissue called mesoglea that, like the interstitium, contain collagen and a gel-like substance similar to hyaluronic acid.
Plants seem to possess their own version of an interstitium, too. It’s called the apoplast, a type of interstitial space that transports water and nutrients outside cell membranes.
These and other examples suggest that fluid moving through interstitial spaces might have represented the first circulatory systems to develop in the earliest forms of complex multicellular plant and animal life, hundreds of millions of years ago.
This relatively recent discovery may have opened up new research frontiers that connect to some of the most ancient life-forms on our planet.
--
Avraham Z. Cooper, a pulmonary and critical care physician, is an associate professor of medicine at Ohio State University.
Jérôme Berthier is a visual artist and illustrator living in Vancouver, Canada, and the author of the comic “Myth.”
==
==
Acupuncture is used to treat conditions as varied as chronic pain, migraines, seasonal allergies and nausea caused by chemotherapy, but some of its actions have never been completely explained. The discovery of the interstitium may help us understand in modern biomedical terms how acupuncture works.
The principles of the practice invoke two circulating elements: chi and blood.
Traditional Chinese medicine describes chi as flowing along one of 12 main tracks, called meridians.
Acupuncturists insert small needles into specific points on the body to enhance the flow of chi.
In a 2002 study, Helene Langevin and Jason Yandow mapped the locations of acupuncture points in the arms to the fascia between and around muscles.
These acupuncture points have since been found to lie within the same areas of connective tissue where fluid flows through the interstitium.
A 2019 paper by researchers in China, led by Dr. Hongyi Li, explains how they injected chemical tracers into acupuncture points in the hands and feet of cadavers and used chest compressions to push fluid through the bodies.
Fluorescent photography enabled them to see the tracers traveling toward the heart within interstitial spaces of the arms and legs. Li and colleagues clearly recognized, just as Wells and Theise did, that they had glimpsed evidence of an interstitial circulation system.
If acupuncture points seem to reside within the interstitium, could the meridians run through the interstitium as well?
In 2021, a group of researchers conducted a similar experiment in China on living subjects, injecting dye into acupuncture points in the forearms of 15 volunteers.
In almost all of them, the dye slowly migrated upward along a route corresponding to the pericardium meridian, which passes through the wrist and along the inner arm.
(Pericardium is the same meridian stimulated by anti-nausea wrist acupressure devices popular on cruise ships.)
“This pathway doesn’t go in the veins, it doesn’t go superficially,” says Andrew Ahn, the study’s senior author and an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. It goes instead, he told me, into the interstitium between the muscles: “When I saw that, I said: ‘We’re onto something. This truly has to do with acupuncture.’”
“I actually do think that the interstitium could be the link between Eastern and Western medicine,” Wells told me. “But you have to show scientifically that that’s the case.”
==
Tipping these specialized cells toward the production of more healthy fat could offer a target for potential diabetes therapies.
Wells, who is a gastroenterologist, says that interstitial links may help explain why some patients with inflammatory bowel diseases, particularly ulcerative colitis, develop an autoimmune disease that affects the bile ducts.
It has been theorized that in inflammatory bowel disease immune cells, gut bacteria or bacterial fragments that migrate from the intestines to the liver end up reaching the bile ducts through the interstitium.
An interconnected interstitium also seems to play a critical role in cancer metastasis. It is well established that cancer cells can spread to the rest of the body by hijacking the lymphatic system.
But evidence suggests that tumor cells may reach the lymphatic system by first navigating through the fluid flowing through the interstitium, like fish swimming downstream.
Numerous cancer types have been seen spreading through the interstitium, breaking down hyaluronic acid as they spread. These include breast, lung, colon, pancreatic and skin cancers, among others, according to Theise.
A drug called narmafotinib, which disrupts how tumor cells invade and move through the interstitium, has shown promise in early clinical trials for treating pancreatic cancer, when combined with chemotherapy.
The discovery of a third circulatory system could transform our understanding of how the human body works. And it may also change how we view our own bodies in relation to other biological systems.
Wells points out that hydra — tiny freshwater invertebrates — have fluid-filled connective tissue called mesoglea that, like the interstitium, contain collagen and a gel-like substance similar to hyaluronic acid.
Plants seem to possess their own version of an interstitium, too. It’s called the apoplast, a type of interstitial space that transports water and nutrients outside cell membranes.
These and other examples suggest that fluid moving through interstitial spaces might have represented the first circulatory systems to develop in the earliest forms of complex multicellular plant and animal life, hundreds of millions of years ago.
This relatively recent discovery may have opened up new research frontiers that connect to some of the most ancient life-forms on our planet.
Avraham Z. Cooper, a pulmonary and critical care physician, is an associate professor of medicine at Ohio State University.
Jérôme Berthier is a visual artist and illustrator living in Vancouver, Canada, and the author of the comic “Myth.”
==
Acupuncture is used to treat conditions as varied as chronic pain, migraines, seasonal allergies and nausea caused by chemotherapy, but some of its actions have never been completely explained. The discovery of the interstitium may help us understand in modern biomedical terms how acupuncture works.
The principles of the practice invoke two circulating elements: chi and blood.
Traditional Chinese medicine describes chi as flowing along one of 12 main tracks, called meridians.
Acupuncturists insert small needles into specific points on the body to enhance the flow of chi.
In a 2002 study, Helene Langevin and Jason Yandow mapped the locations of acupuncture points in the arms to the fascia between and around muscles.
These acupuncture points have since been found to lie within the same areas of connective tissue where fluid flows through the interstitium.
A 2019 paper by researchers in China, led by Dr. Hongyi Li, explains how they injected chemical tracers into acupuncture points in the hands and feet of cadavers and used chest compressions to push fluid through the bodies.
Fluorescent photography enabled them to see the tracers traveling toward the heart within interstitial spaces of the arms and legs. Li and colleagues clearly recognized, just as Wells and Theise did, that they had glimpsed evidence of an interstitial circulation system.
If acupuncture points seem to reside within the interstitium, could the meridians run through the interstitium as well?
In 2021, a group of researchers conducted a similar experiment in China on living subjects, injecting dye into acupuncture points in the forearms of 15 volunteers.
In almost all of them, the dye slowly migrated upward along a route corresponding to the pericardium meridian, which passes through the wrist and along the inner arm.
(Pericardium is the same meridian stimulated by anti-nausea wrist acupressure devices popular on cruise ships.)
“This pathway doesn’t go in the veins, it doesn’t go superficially,” says Andrew Ahn, the study’s senior author and an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. It goes instead, he told me, into the interstitium between the muscles: “When I saw that, I said: ‘We’re onto something. This truly has to do with acupuncture.’”
“I actually do think that the interstitium could be the link between Eastern and Western medicine,” Wells told me. “But you have to show scientifically that that’s the case.”
==
Tipping these specialized cells toward the production of more healthy fat could offer a target for potential diabetes therapies.
Wells, who is a gastroenterologist, says that interstitial links may help explain why some patients with inflammatory bowel diseases, particularly ulcerative colitis, develop an autoimmune disease that affects the bile ducts.
It has been theorized that in inflammatory bowel disease immune cells, gut bacteria or bacterial fragments that migrate from the intestines to the liver end up reaching the bile ducts through the interstitium.
An interconnected interstitium also seems to play a critical role in cancer metastasis. It is well established that cancer cells can spread to the rest of the body by hijacking the lymphatic system.
But evidence suggests that tumor cells may reach the lymphatic system by first navigating through the fluid flowing through the interstitium, like fish swimming downstream.
Numerous cancer types have been seen spreading through the interstitium, breaking down hyaluronic acid as they spread. These include breast, lung, colon, pancreatic and skin cancers, among others, according to Theise.
A drug called narmafotinib, which disrupts how tumor cells invade and move through the interstitium, has shown promise in early clinical trials for treating pancreatic cancer, when combined with chemotherapy.
The discovery of a third circulatory system could transform our understanding of how the human body works. And it may also change how we view our own bodies in relation to other biological systems.
Wells points out that hydra — tiny freshwater invertebrates — have fluid-filled connective tissue called mesoglea that, like the interstitium, contain collagen and a gel-like substance similar to hyaluronic acid.
Plants seem to possess their own version of an interstitium, too. It’s called the apoplast, a type of interstitial space that transports water and nutrients outside cell membranes.
These and other examples suggest that fluid moving through interstitial spaces might have represented the first circulatory systems to develop in the earliest forms of complex multicellular plant and animal life, hundreds of millions of years ago.
This relatively recent discovery may have opened up new research frontiers that connect to some of the most ancient life-forms on our planet.
Avraham Z. Cooper, a pulmonary and critical care physician, is an associate professor of medicine at Ohio State University.
Jérôme Berthier is a visual artist and illustrator living in Vancouver, Canada, and the author of the comic “Myth.”
==
1068 comments on The Astounding Discovery That Could Link Eastern and Western Medicin
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Cathy commented May 11
C
Cathy
NY ·
May 11
I really, really want to read this--in paragraphs, without the annoyance of scrolling through all the background noise and pictures. I can't read it this way. Could the Times possibly publish text alternatives to this enormous waste of time, space, data resources, design energy, for people who aren't children who need picture books? Just a link for text please.
Replies 53
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Elizabeth commented May 11
E
Elizabeth
Colchester, VT ·
May 11
Articles like this should make every decent, hopeful American vote against Trump and cronies and their ruinous, cynical view of scientific inquiry. Don’t we want to be smart and intrigued? To let our knowledge grow as we face the future? The mental stagnation of the current GOP is catastrophic. It is literally killing us. SAVE SCIENCE. VOTE BLUE.
Replies 6
Recommend 2.6K
Gatineau Hills commented May 11
G
Gatineau Hills
There ·
May 11
As a physician, I read this piece with great interest. Unlike some commenters who found the presentation frustrating, the combination of text and graphic illustrations fired my imagination. It slowed me down where I might otherwise have hurriedly scrolled through, allowing me to connect the dots of this fascinating story with older knowledge.
Replies 5
Recommend 2.5K
Paul Doane commented May 11
Paul Doane
Paul Doane
NH ·
May 11
Important and fascinating information.
I remember decades ago when we first opened to China, James Reston, a NYT reporter, had emergency surgery there and they used acupuncture for the anesthesia. Obviously, there's still a lot we don't know.
The downside, of course, is that at this important time, we have an entire administration stripping away research
in most medical areas and discounting science.
Replies 5
Recommend 1.6K
CB commented May 11In reply thread
C
CB
NY ·
May 11
@Cathy As someone who is not a child, but find visuals important to understanding concepts, I did not find this a waste. This piece is likely not meant to be a comprehensive TLDR version. I agree that links to more in-depth articles would be nice for those who wish to delve deeper, but graphics are a great way to give an overall concept clarity. As a former university professor, I can attest that, sometimes, a picture indeed is worth a thousand words.
Replies 3
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Angela commented May 11
A
Angela
The West ·
May 11
Great to have this article but it’s a little too little, a little too late for the field of Chinese Medicine and for Acupuncturists in America. Most people do not know that Acupuncture is in crisis as a profession and is soon to be extinct. Acupuncture schools are closing left and right throughout the nation, and the national licensing body is likely to collapse in the next few years. There will be fewer and fewer acupuncturists graduating in the near future, and how acupuncture will continue in this country is uncertain. Dry needling done by physical therapists is a substandard bastardization of actual acupuncture and is not a replacement.
This is a systemic problem with multiple root factors, including the fact that most acupuncturist are stymied by a lack of job opportunities because our medical system has fought to keep acupuncturist out of mainstream medical models. There is extremely low to no insurance reimbursements. There is high student loan debt to income ratios. Most acupuncturist by default have only one option to practice their medicine: open their own small business. Statistically, small businesses have a 50% rate of failure in the first 5 years. Acupuncture businesses have an 85% failure rate. Already 50% of licensed acupuncturists are not practicing 5 years after graduation.
At this point the dominoes have already started to fall. There may be a way to save a couple of the schools but even that is uncertain. We will lose an amazing medicine. I am a L.Ac
Recommend 1.4K
Diane Brenner commented May 11
D
Diane Brenner
Worthington, Massachusetts ·
May 11
This is both a "wow" and a "duh." Exciting to see how much progress has been made on understanding this from a Western perspective. I am sure this fascinating complexity is true for most life forms. For me, I would have preferred a presentation where the text is not being "spoon fed" bit by bit, constantly interrupted by rapidly changing graphics. Some are typically fine, but for me this one was overkill. Perhaps you could add a link to a more text-focused presentation for those of us who prefer it In any case. mighty interesting.
Replies 4
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Quizzical looker commented May 11
Q
Quizzical looker
Irvine ·
May 11
This is superb science communication. Bravo to the team.
Recommend 1K
Keeka May commented May 11
K
Keeka May
Chapel Hill NC ·
May 11
A link to a “text only” version would be greatly appreciated. That said: I love the colorful graphics. Give readers a choice.
Humans are diverse in their learning preferences. And needs. I taught elementary children for many years. Information presentation and absorption comes in many styles.
The annoyance expressed by some readers is real. Give them an option. Textbooks of color animation - verses solely text. Neither is superior. Both are legit options.
Replies 3
Recommend 941
Michelle commented May 11
M
Michelle
Gainesville FL ·
May 11
As the Chinese medical system (and others) have worked with this system for thousands of years, it’s an identification rather than a discovery, no?
Replies 7
Recommend 914
DJ commented May 11In reply thread
D
DJ
New York ·
May 11
@Cathy
On the contrary, I found the NY Times presentation was not distracting. It was engaging, interesting and highly informative. I am 70+ years old and a retired elementary school principal, who learned many years ago that children, college students and older adults generally love being read to and shown picture books. A multi-sensory approach to presentation of information - like the use of charts, graphs and drawings - often seen in science journals - has a powerful impact on comprehension and assimilation of data and scientific jargon.
Replies 2
Recommend 726
JAS commented May 11
J
JAS
Lancaster PA ·
May 11
It’s striking to me that western medicine “Announces a groundbreaking discovery” while simultaneously calling eastern medicine quackery. The arrogance.
Scientific discovery of our human systems isn’t “Done” or anywhere near “ complete”. I wish doctors and insurance companies would stop with their “trust us we know best” nonsense and exhibit a little intellectual curiosity.
Replies 8
Recommend 675
HBot commented May 11
H
HBot
Westchester ·
May 11
I really enjoyed the visual elements of this article! They brought the science to life.
Recommend 616
OnceOverseasProf commented May 11
O
OnceOverseasProf
Madison, Wisconsin ·
May 11
Australia, among other nations, now requires its premed students to take coursework in traditional Chinese medicine. We should follow suit. In the years I lived there, I was never healthier and more relaxed with robust traditional massage once a week, acupuncture several times a year, organic remedies for common colds and coughs, and fresh vegetables prepared in a myriad of ways. Ancient civilizations have much to teach us!
Recommend 615
Alison Howard commented May 11
A
Alison Howard
Berkeley Springs, WV ·
May 11
There will be many clinicians, known as alternative healers, who will be both ecstatic and irritated by this article. They have known about this system for their entire careers, and are known as cranial sacral, myo-fascia, and polarity therapists, to name a few. During yoga teacher training, we were taught about meridians. I’m glad that western science is catching up.
Replies 5
Recommend 538
Grace commented May 11
G
Grace
Portland, OR ·
May 11
There is also another circulatory system - the Cerebrospinal Fluid system. This specialized fluid circulates throughout the brain/cranium and up and down the spinal canal at a rate of about 8-10 cycles/min, though this can vary. The CSF is produced by the choroid plexuses in the lateral, 3rd, and 4th ventricles of the brain. Well-trained, experienced cranio-sacral therapists utilize this system to relieve restrictions in the fascia system which can contribute to musculoskeletal issues, neuromuscular problems, as well as visceral dysfunctions.
Recommend 476
Sarah commented May 11
S
Sarah
Minneapolis ·
May 11
I am stunned by the hubris of this article. Ancient wisdom from an eastern culture has been clouded over by centuries of western "experts" who didn't have the imagination or curiosity to learn about a system that connects two seemingly disparate anatomical functions. Just because they couldn't "see" it doesn't mean it wasn't there. This is not a discovery, people. It is an aha moment that uses modern technology to come to a conclusion that others reached long ago. Today's western doctors need to understand just how beautifully connected we are--both within our own bodies' functions and to the entire world of living things, including trees and fish and rivers. It's a closed loop system of mutual dependence. And the sooner we realize that the sooner we can heal ourselves and this dying planet.
Replies 6
Recommend 472
Sceptic commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sceptic
Upstate NY ·
May 11
@Cathy Excellent point. Navigating the visual screens is distracting and annoying and unnecessary. The jerky boxes seem to have a life of their own. The graphics can easily be inserted in the text with normal scrolling.
Recommend 452
Jeremy commented May 11In reply thread
J
Jeremy
Midwest ·
May 11
@Cathy This!
I understand that others may really like the way this is presented.
However, I have my subscription to the Times because I enjoy the quality of the writing. Please consider providing an alternative presentation for those of us who prefer in depth reading.
Replies 1
Recommend 407
AK commented May 11In reply thread
A
AK
Chicago ·
May 11
@Cathy
It’s fine you want an alternative version of the feature, but there’s absolutely no reason to be so derisive of the work of the artists and editors who put this together.
Recommend 407
Lyle Ross commented May 11In reply thread
L
Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
@Don B, I think you misunderstood. Every claim made in the article was based in experimental evidence. All the speculation was listed as speculation.
Science works this way. You make an observation, you speculate as to what it means, then you test that hypothesis.
I too am comfortable with Western medicine. Not so comfortable that I think it is the end all or that we've solved every problem. I am glad to see folks are still researching and pushing boundaries.
Recommend 380
David commented May 11
D
David
CT ·
May 11
This method of presenting interesting factual information as a series of sliding cartoons with childish illustrations was very frustrating. I stopped reading and went elsewhere to read about this fascinating insight.
Replies 2
Recommend 374
C commented May 11In reply thread
C
C
Portland ·
May 11
@Cathy The level of complaint here when faced with a piece that was clearly carefully and thoughtfully engineered is striking. What if we just suggest a text-only option in the future? This is a complex story that includes visuals to clarify the nuances. Medical textbooks are not “ for children “ and yet they explicate concepts with imagery.
Replies 3
Recommend 371
Fazzi Battaglia commented May 11
F
Fazzi Battaglia
New York ·
May 11
People have know this intuitivly for ever but have been gaslighted into beliving its not. Our bodies are the exact mirror of the fabric of space.
Recommend 360
CJ commented May 11
C
CJ
Down Under ·
May 11
This is so good and explained so well. I love it. And thank you to our scientists. And jurnos who put this article together.
Recommend 349
Seth Polley commented May 11
S
Seth Polley
Texas ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating. We still don’t understand how our own bodies really work.
I always find it strange that people talk about creating AGI or creating a conscious machine when we haven’t even begun to understand how our bodies work, much less our brains, even less how we are conscious.
Replies 3
Recommend 262
Ithaca Reader commented May 11
I
Ithaca Reader
Ithaca ·
May 11
I am not very good at reading these long NY Times visual essays, but I was curious if tattoos could cause illness so I did some research if tattoos are potentially toxic because of the interstitium.
I learned that Tattoo ink is injected into the dermis, but it does not stay there. A significant portion (60-90%) is transported via the interstitium to the lymph nodes and other organs. Tattoo inks-containing heavy metals, PAAs, and PAHs— can be toxic to this system by causing long-term inflammation, accumulating in lymph nodes, and triggering immune dysfunction.
Many inks contain hazardous chemicals and pigments that can include heavy metals like cadmium or mercury, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), which are linked to cancer and neurodegenerative diseases.
Recommend 254
JK commented May 11
J
JK
Canada ·
May 11
I am a physician, but not a basic science person or researcher. To me this sounds like they're just calling the space between cells "a new circulatory system." As the article does say, we call this the interstitium. But the interstitial space is not a new discovery at all, the only novelty is calling it a circulatory system. Maybe the interesting part is just that new research is showing that more and further transportation of cells, hormones, etc. occurs within this space than previously thought (vs those things getting taken up and transported by the lymphatic or circulatory systems instead). Maybelline there's something I'm missing, though.
Recommend 246
pp commented May 11In reply thread
p
pp
Columbia, SC ·
May 11
@Cathy I am a 49 year old fully grown adult who has struggled with processing lines of text for years, despite being an avid reader, thinker, and skilled writer. Only lately have I started to reckon with this and the realization that my thinking is far more structural and visual than textual or linear, but this doesn’t mean I’m less intelligent just because lines and lines of words on a page are harder for me to parse. It’s extremely frustrating to see visual thought characterized as “childish,” because it isn’t— what is frustrating to you is a relief to me, and that has nothing to do with my intellect being ruined by twitterfication of writing and reading. I continue to read religiously and write reams of words, it’s just an entirely different experience for me. The best approach would be to offer ideas in both a linear and textual style as well as this more graphic style so that a broader diversity of minds can engage them. No need to disparage the minds that use pictures more than sentences to understand the world. I’m grateful to see a publication involving such beautiful images to transmit scientific information.
Replies 1
Recommend 235
Bronwen M commented May 11
B
Bronwen M
Merced, CA ·
May 11
Radiolab had an episode on this in Nov. 2023 that was quite good https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium?gad_campaignid=20986778840&gbraid=0AAAAAD9J8hHHITG-WoOSdz-AgdgHYGVkl
Recommend 232
DD commented May 11
D
DD
upstate NY ·
May 11
That this fascinating insight could open a world of possible advances in therapies once again demonstrates the need for, and value of, basic scientific research. There is much to be done, but unfortunately this comes at a time when the prevailing ethos of the leaders of our government is primarily anti-science, as they cut funding and espouse beliefs rooted in magical thinking and folklore.
Recommend 228
Surprise me commented May 11
S
Surprise me
Stockholm ·
May 11
…did I mention I had IBD cured through use of this information?
Recommend 228
Zoe commented May 11In reply thread
Z
Zoe
Alpha Centauri ·
May 11
@Cathy. As a graphic designer I love this format. It drives home the ideas with images. Please keep using the enhanced graphics. It really sets the Times articles apart.
Replies 1
Recommend 224
Susan F commented May 11
S
Susan F
Western Mass ·
May 11
Up until a few decades ago, scientists didn't understand fascia either, they thought it was "inert." I suspect there is no inert or unconnected matter in our bodies. There's just connections we haven't discovered yet. As we see here, yet again.
Replies 1
Recommend 223
Jesse commented May 11
J
Jesse
North Dakota ·
May 11
Acupuncture has been proven to have no benefit to the human body. There is evidence that the acupuncture community cannot even decide amongst themselves where on the body "chi" flows. Blind studies have shown that acupuncture is no better than a placebo.
Recommend 215
Nancy commented May 11In reply thread
N
Nancy
Arlington, MA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen as an acupuncture patient I must disagree. I experienced a bad fall during a seizure a few years ago and injured my C-7 in my back. OTC meds were useless for the pain. Weekly appointments with my acupuncturist eliminated my pain and allowed me to function normally again. Everyone has different experiences. With the right practitioner and sharing details of your pain and location it can be a game changer.
Replies 1
Recommend 212
Vinnie K commented May 11
V
Vinnie K
NJ ·
May 11
Fantastic to read this piece. Great slow graphics, too, giving time to absorb. And it is so nice to see researchers that have minds open to the "impossible" or "unknown."
Science is endlessly fascinating. And, yes, how often is it true that the "ancients" have been there before...
Recommend 211
Rennie commented May 11
Rennie
Rennie
Portland Oregon ·
May 11
This is a fascinating, wonderful article. I think the combination of text and graphics is great. Seeing the graphs as I was reading about the topic visually displayed really helped me understand how these bodily systems work. Thank you for this excellent writing and illustration.
Recommend 203
Jorge commented May 11In reply thread
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Jorge
Boston, MA ·
May 11
@Cathy I have the same thoughts. Sadly this is what our world is becoming and the youth of today have little ability to stay engaged without some photo or headline....The new style for websites is very much this way - small chunks with photos and graphics.
I guess it all started with 140 characters and Twitter.
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Deborah commented May 11
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Deborah
Pennsylvania ·
May 11
The Northeast is plagued with Lyme disease. After the initial course of antibiotics, established medicine and insurance coverage stops recognizing persistent health issues that are related to the disease. If cancer is able to travel through the body via this other circulatory system, isn’t it possible that Lyme might do the same in some instances? Too many individuals suffer through the effects of this tick borne plague with too few doctors accepting the validity of their complaints.
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Recommend 192
Gkatny commented May 11
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Gkatny
Near NYC ·
May 11
The art and animation is superb! Really fun way to learn about this connection between ancient and new understandings of the human body.
Recommend 189
joy commented May 11
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joy
poughkeepsie ·
May 11
The Chinese have been told over and over again that there is no scientific evidence for Jingluo (literally "meridians and networks") in the human body, and that these therapies are superstition and psychological comfort. There has been so much effort to discredit the foundation of this part of traditional Chinese medicine, only to discover the network's existence. What a shame! This really should humble us to treat traditional knowledge differently.
Recommend 187
Desertbluecat commented May 11In reply thread
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Desertbluecat
Albuquerque ·
May 11
@Cathy I agree 100%. And for all the people saying "to the contrary"....good for you. Some of you like the visuals, some of us prefer text without the jerky boxes, text that doesn't suddenly disappear before we've finished reading, text that isn't over/under laid with visuals.
I've complained about this fancy schmancy text presentation before, but never thought to ask for a link to text. A simple solution that would satisfy all. You are brilliant Cathy!
Recommend 184
steve commented May 11
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steve
hawaii ·
May 11
The doubters here seem to be convinced that western medicine is somehow infallible.
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Sidewalk50 commented May 11In reply thread
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Sidewalk50
NYC ·
May 11
@Diane Brenner I agree. The graphics are insulting and they disrupt the flow (no pun intended) of information. In fact, I stopped reading. If I wanted a comic book, I’d buy a comic book.
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Rachel commented May 11
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Rachel
Boston ·
May 11
As someone who started studying acupuncture in the early 90's, I remember well that when I told folks about it, the most common response was, huh, what is that? In the past two decades, there has been a remarkable explosion in the numbers of people recognizing acupuncture as a legitimate healing modality. But there are always a few who want to know HOW it works, (most often as a way to poke holes in any argument on its supposed efficacy). This research is very cool, and is corroborated by what many of us have seen clinically. Most incredible is when a patient comes in with no knowledge of acupuncture, and yet when a needle is inserted, can trace sensations up the meridian, through pathways documented thousands of years ago in China. Now modern science is able to show this visually. Amazing!
Recommend 165
Concerned Citizen commented May 11
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Concerned Citizen
america ·
May 11
That's great! Except acupuncture doesn't work. The only scientific evidence that acupuncture works is for a very limited and specific location. None of the other stuff does what it says. Acupuncture has always been a pseudoscience. If portions of it were real and evidence based we'd have pulled them from the tradition and incorporated them into Western medicine - which I will remind people is not really just Western medicine it is practiced across the world. There are Chinese doctors who are trained in the scientific method and science. Would it not be realistic to assume tons of people have looked for this link (especially since chi has been known to the West for over 400 years as well).
Besides the fact that acupuncture doesn't work and so this could not give us a mechanism to explain how it does, those meridians that you show simply don't line up with the interstitial follow. A child could connect the dots better.
And finally interstitial fluid is simply not chi. Chi is said to be breath and vital energy and that you can manipulate it through martial arts, food, and meditation. That's not what this appears to be at all.
It's great that we found new anatomy and are learning new things about the human body but not every new discovery needs to be linked to some orientalist "ancient wisdom"
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Recommend 162
Lyle Ross commented May 11
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Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
Cool! I am looking forward to the rigorous testing of some of the hypotheses written about here.
Recommend 155
Glen commented May 11
Glen
Glen
Medina, MN ·
May 11
Amazing! Wonderful article! Graphics are key here! Thank you!
Recommend 153
James Firelocke commented May 11In reply thread
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James Firelocke
New Jersey ·
May 11
@Cathy
I actually found the illustrations very helpful. So maybe they can publish a version with visual effects, and one without.
Recommend 148
sujatha commented May 11
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sujatha
U.S. ·
May 11
Please stop saying “relatively recent discovery” about things China and India have known for 4000 years.
Recommend 148
Eric commented May 11In reply thread
Eric
Eric
Hudson Valley ·
May 11
@JAS.
"Western medicine" didn't announce anything.
Some scientists did some research and presented dome papers, and the New York Times wrote a story about it.
"Western medicine" isn't a person. Or an organization.
It's a body of knowledge and practices.
Recommend 143
Ed commented May 11In reply thread
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Ed
Michigan ·
May 11
@Cathy Sometimes this kind of progressive scroll really works well, especially when depicting a sequence of events. In this case though I agree with you. I found the effect to be distracting for the text blocks.
Recommend 142
Diana commented May 11
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Diana
New Bern,North Carolina, USA ·
May 11
We "discovered" America, when it was already civilized. And now this! When it was known.
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Barth commented May 11
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Barth
MA ·
May 11
This was beautifully illustrated, animated, and told. As a Radiolab fan, I can understand your editorial decision to tell the story this way.
Recommend 128
FCP commented May 11
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FCP
MA ·
May 11
I am a traditionally trained ( Johns Hopkins) physician. While I have not read the article yet, I was not told in medical school that the interstitium was isolated and separated in the manner this article implies. Many cells move through it. The lymphatic system is also ubiquitous at the microscopic level, so isolating its contribution would be very difficult.
I also do not find the connections to acupuncture particularly novel. Acupuncture has been an accepted therapy for decades in Western medicine, but the real difference is that its acceptance required clinical trials to demonstrate it worked and to demonstrate the diseases it was effective for.
The scientific method and clinical trials are the only reason western medicine has achieved civilization altering health results. Without them we would still be bleeding people and blaming “miasmas” for epidemics.
Yet many advocates of “ alternative medicine” and “ naturopaths” refuse to support clinical trials and believe they can “ practice” without any scientific knowledge, training or education.
Unfortunately the NIH and HHS are now under the control of these quacks.
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Recommend 125
Jaki commented May 11
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Jaki
NJ ·
May 11
This was a fascinating and almost magical article. This place we call Earth is so cool.
Recommend 122
Sera commented May 11In reply thread
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Sera
Seattle ·
May 11
@Paul Doane Acupuncture was certainly not used in lieu of anesthesia for James Reston’s appendectomy (please, don’t try that at home!). Reston’s only claim was that acupuncture may have helped relieve some of his postoperative pain. A rather important distinction…
Recommend 121
Jim Loving commented May 11In reply thread
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Jim Loving
Alexandria VA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen Acupuncture has worked for many, including me, specifically for Post Herpetic Neuralgia. Agree more researched needed, but this comments seems to have an axe to grind.
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Martha Zoey commented May 11
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Martha Zoey
Osoyoos, BC ·
May 11
Excellent article! I remember learning about interstitial fluid in first year anatomy (or was it physiology?) class at chiropractic school in 1989. That was a long time ago, so not the newest “discovery!”
Recommend 116
Don B commented May 11
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Don B
Ithaca, NY ·
May 11
The article is about as scientific as one built on cartoons would lead one to suspect. Physicians quoted outside their area of expertise, constant deference to pseudoscience, one wonders if the followup replies in the scientific literature to these rather breathless claims will receive the same coverage.
To ask it is to answer it. Sober scientific analysis doesn't sell papers to the middle class layers focused on their hokum and bunkum as well as the latest "discoveries" related to the purity and essence of our bodily fluids.
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Recommend 116
Larry commented May 11In reply thread
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Larry
Houston, TX ·
May 11
@Cathy Two comments: First, every browser has a "reader view" that will provide the text-based version that you are asking for. Simply google "reader view in browsers" for a description of this feature. If you are using the NYT app, you might suggest that the NYT add this feature to its app as well (though the app will let you copy the link to the article via the Share feature, which will allow you to open the article in your phone's browser).
Second, as we can see from the comments, many people enjoy this presentation; some even find it more conducive to their own way of processing information. While your request for a text-based version is quite reasonable, deriding these readers as "children who need picture books" is unnecessary at best, and mean-spirited at worst.
One final point: The NYT produces some of the best journalistic graphics of any publication (and I read a lot of them). Please keep up the good work!
Recommend 114
JimT commented May 11In reply thread
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JimT
Canada ·
May 11
@Cathy: Thanks for speaking for me on this point. I spent a lot of frustrating time trying to scroll back up to read paragraphs that wandered off just as I was trying to read it.
I note that your comment has the highest votes of any here, and appears at the top of the list.
Recommend 113
Elizabeth Volkmann commented May 11
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Elizabeth Volkmann
Massachusetts ·
May 11
Fascinating studies highlighted here. I do find it confounding, however, that modern medicine seems surprised when it is discovered that (1) ancient health and healing practices prove 'true' vis-a-vis a 'groundbreaking' finding; (2) that the human body has something in common with our earthly counterparts, in this case, early life forms - that somehow the human body developed spontaneously from all other life. Maybe there is a future where disciplines combine - modeled by the very interstitium the study highlights. We are more connected to each other and the earthly systems we come from and live among. Humility will always bring us closer to the truth.
Recommend 111
Prof Reader commented May 11In reply thread
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Prof Reader
Georgia ·
May 11
@Cathy
The problem here is that the graphics are more decorative than substantive. Yet, this genre is a perfect illustration of how digital texts create a sharper tension between prose and graphics, elevating the latter to existing on a more equal plane with prose. Richard Lanham has observed that traditionally we look through the visual presentation of prose, but look at the graphics. More poetically Beatrice Ward in the 1930s said that prose is the crystal goblet that holds the wine of meaning. Until multimedia digital texts emerged, prose was the main actor and graphics were the hand maiden. Now, at least occasionally, as in this example, graphics predominate, for better or worse.
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Recommend 107
Michael J commented May 11In reply thread
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Michael J
California ·
May 11
@Cathy Reading text is a relatively new skill while reading visuals is more evolved in humans. Using multiple parts of your brain increases your overall intelligence. The same principle applies to training your nondominant hand to write or throw a ball. DaVinci wrote and read in mirror. He was pretty good at illustration, too.
I am an author illustrator. I’ve written book on learning the pictographic writing systems of Chinese and Japanese. I taught myself to count in letters, read numbers as words, recite the alphabet backwards, and am learning how to (somewhat) quickly read anagrams from words and phrases. Give ‘dyslexia’ a try. It will arouse your mind. ;- )
Bravo to the designers of this article!
Recommend 105
Kathleen Smith commented May 11
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Kathleen Smith
Northern NH ·
May 11
As an MD and an acupuncturist, I applaud this new science. The graphics are wonderful in the initial part of the article, then as one's interest is piqued, become an irritating impediment to learning more. Nonmedical readers may have found them charming and engaging. More details, please.
Recommend 102
Chip Kuhn commented May 11In reply thread
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Chip Kuhn
Bronx ·
May 11
@Cathy golly gee wiz.... I found the graphics quite helpful when trying to visualizing this medical frontier
Recommend 97
Ella commented May 11
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Ella
Longmont ·
May 11
this goes to show that 'science' is certainly not always at the vanguard, nor is science something fixed, to 'believe' in...I don't believe in science, but I respect it as a process. What it calls true is always changing, it is not a dogma, as even my leftist friends have begun to make it 'infallible' and censor questioning or conversations even about body autonomy (vaccines. abortion, is ok! but vaccines, your body is not yours). Meanwhile, i use alternative medicine to cure my autoimmune illnesses, which my western doctors called 'incurable' because their 'scientific' training is limited, and not always ahead of other sources of knowledge, and often neglects and dismisses things that are ancient wisdom from the east (non white men) from herbalists (women and other healers)
Recommend 97
Jack Z commented May 11
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Jack Z
Boston ·
May 11
Acupuncture and "Eastern Medicine" have consistently failed to show any serious proof beyond placebo. Comments rush to claim "the Chinese knew this for 4000 years" and "Western medicine is hubris", as if the age of medicine is an indicator of being effective. Humoral Theory is also thousands of years old, and also posits a system of fluid transfer in the body to achieve balance. I'm sure if you look at humor charts, they would also spuriously align with dye experiments. Yet nobody is rushing to claim "Humor Theory proven". Perhaps since Humor Theory is Western and meridians are Eastern, educated people rush to defend the latter and claim "they knew it all along" to prove their worldliness. Newsflash from a Chinese person: we are not all ancient Shaolin monks with the key to the universe, and our pre-industrial society was no healthier than your average medieval European village. Before 1800, all humans suffered from a 1/3 infant mortality rate and millions died from plague, smallpox, tuberculosis, and a host of other diseases. In the past 200 years "Western Medicine" (which is just code for replicable medicine with an action mechanism) has made these issues almost non-existent in contemporary developed societies. Our current focus should be extending these miracles to under-developed societies, not pursuing "ancient oriental wisdom" that hasn't worked for 4000 years. Many commenter are not as far off from MAHA as they may think. Also the graphics were annoying.
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Recommend 94
Dr. T commented May 11
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Dr. T
United States ·
May 11
Nice article. Thank you. Would it be possible for NYT to provide a separate reading option for this type of article, which would allow the reader to have a simple text of the article, rather than having to scroll through the various illustrations? The presentations are nice, but some readers may just want the text version.
Recommend 93
Tim commented May 11
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Tim
Upstate, NY ·
May 11
Not an overly dramatic association of ancient Eastern medicine with contemporary Western but THIRD-SPACING has been known in the surgical-medical community for quite some time. Post-operative, traumatic fluid due to surgery and/or trauma is not in the cells, not in the vascular system and if it didn't have some form of movement system, all that fluid would probably drain into a huge pool drawn by gravity alone. But, that too is not the case, so an interconnected system probably does exist - it hasn't been well-defined.
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Recommend 91
laurel commented May 11
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laurel
new york, ny ·
May 11
Fantastic article. This is the kind of positive, upbeat news story I prefer to read in the newspaper on a Monday morning. Puts an optimistic, hopeful spin on the entire week ahead.
Recommend 89
Thom commented May 11In reply thread
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Thom
Vermont ·
May 11
@braindoctor No, everything that touches our lives is political!! Whether we like it or not.
Recommend 89
Data Analyst commented May 11In reply thread
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Data Analyst
Maryland ·
May 11
First, let me clarify something for laypeople about how science works when examining efficacy. A single positive scientific study doesn't "prove" something works. Studies vary in design, rigor, and size. When examing evidence of efficacy, the entire body of scientific literature on that topic needs to be looked at holistically.
When looked at this way, a pretty clear pattern emerges in studies on accupuncture. Accupuncture appears to succeed in less rigorous studies, but performs no better than placebo--fake accupuncture--in studies that are better controlled.
In fact, the specific type of placebo used is very relevant to this story.
In he most rigorous studies, the placebo treatment is accupuncture needles inserted at non-accupuncture points. And this sham needling typically produces effects identical to "real" accupunture. In other words, the efficacy of accupuncture is due to the placebo effect.
The placebo effect produces real and powerful results. It does not mean that the cessation of your pain or inflammation was "fake"--patient experiences are real. It means that sticking needles in you had some real effect, but that effect was not due to convergence on meridians of energy.
These effects are also strongest for pain. Pain is highly subject to placebo effects in general, but needling does also appear to produce anti-pain chemical signaling in the body. So, again, patients can have real experiences, and meridians can be mthys.
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Recommend 88
Cathy commented May 11
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Cathy
NY ·
May 11
I really, really want to read this--in paragraphs, without the annoyance of scrolling through all the background noise and pictures. I can't read it this way. Could the Times possibly publish text alternatives to this enormous waste of time, space, data resources, design energy, for people who aren't children who need picture books? Just a link for text please.
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Recommend 4K
Elizabeth commented May 11
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Elizabeth
Colchester, VT ·
May 11
Articles like this should make every decent, hopeful American vote against Trump and cronies and their ruinous, cynical view of scientific inquiry. Don’t we want to be smart and intrigued? To let our knowledge grow as we face the future? The mental stagnation of the current GOP is catastrophic. It is literally killing us. SAVE SCIENCE. VOTE BLUE.
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Recommend 2.6K
Gatineau Hills commented May 11
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Gatineau Hills
There ·
May 11
As a physician, I read this piece with great interest. Unlike some commenters who found the presentation frustrating, the combination of text and graphic illustrations fired my imagination. It slowed me down where I might otherwise have hurriedly scrolled through, allowing me to connect the dots of this fascinating story with older knowledge.
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Recommend 2.5K
Paul Doane commented May 11
Paul Doane
Paul Doane
NH ·
May 11
Important and fascinating information.
I remember decades ago when we first opened to China, James Reston, a NYT reporter, had emergency surgery there and they used acupuncture for the anesthesia. Obviously, there's still a lot we don't know.
The downside, of course, is that at this important time, we have an entire administration stripping away research
in most medical areas and discounting science.
Replies 5
Recommend 1.6K
CB commented May 11In reply thread
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CB
NY ·
May 11
@Cathy As someone who is not a child, but find visuals important to understanding concepts, I did not find this a waste. This piece is likely not meant to be a comprehensive TLDR version. I agree that links to more in-depth articles would be nice for those who wish to delve deeper, but graphics are a great way to give an overall concept clarity. As a former university professor, I can attest that, sometimes, a picture indeed is worth a thousand words.
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Angela commented May 11
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Angela
The West ·
May 11
Great to have this article but it’s a little too little, a little too late for the field of Chinese Medicine and for Acupuncturists in America. Most people do not know that Acupuncture is in crisis as a profession and is soon to be extinct. Acupuncture schools are closing left and right throughout the nation, and the national licensing body is likely to collapse in the next few years. There will be fewer and fewer acupuncturists graduating in the near future, and how acupuncture will continue in this country is uncertain. Dry needling done by physical therapists is a substandard bastardization of actual acupuncture and is not a replacement.
This is a systemic problem with multiple root factors, including the fact that most acupuncturist are stymied by a lack of job opportunities because our medical system has fought to keep acupuncturist out of mainstream medical models. There is extremely low to no insurance reimbursements. There is high student loan debt to income ratios. Most acupuncturist by default have only one option to practice their medicine: open their own small business. Statistically, small businesses have a 50% rate of failure in the first 5 years. Acupuncture businesses have an 85% failure rate. Already 50% of licensed acupuncturists are not practicing 5 years after graduation.
At this point the dominoes have already started to fall. There may be a way to save a couple of the schools but even that is uncertain. We will lose an amazing medicine. I am a L.Ac
Recommend 1.4K
Diane Brenner commented May 11
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Diane Brenner
Worthington, Massachusetts ·
May 11
This is both a "wow" and a "duh." Exciting to see how much progress has been made on understanding this from a Western perspective. I am sure this fascinating complexity is true for most life forms. For me, I would have preferred a presentation where the text is not being "spoon fed" bit by bit, constantly interrupted by rapidly changing graphics. Some are typically fine, but for me this one was overkill. Perhaps you could add a link to a more text-focused presentation for those of us who prefer it In any case. mighty interesting.
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Recommend 1.1K
Quizzical looker commented May 11
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Quizzical looker
Irvine ·
May 11
This is superb science communication. Bravo to the team.
Recommend 1K
Keeka May commented May 11
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Keeka May
Chapel Hill NC ·
May 11
A link to a “text only” version would be greatly appreciated. That said: I love the colorful graphics. Give readers a choice.
Humans are diverse in their learning preferences. And needs. I taught elementary children for many years. Information presentation and absorption comes in many styles.
The annoyance expressed by some readers is real. Give them an option. Textbooks of color animation - verses solely text. Neither is superior. Both are legit options.
Replies 3
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Michelle commented May 11
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Michelle
Gainesville FL ·
May 11
As the Chinese medical system (and others) have worked with this system for thousands of years, it’s an identification rather than a discovery, no?
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Recommend 914
DJ commented May 11In reply thread
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DJ
New York ·
May 11
@Cathy
On the contrary, I found the NY Times presentation was not distracting. It was engaging, interesting and highly informative. I am 70+ years old and a retired elementary school principal, who learned many years ago that children, college students and older adults generally love being read to and shown picture books. A multi-sensory approach to presentation of information - like the use of charts, graphs and drawings - often seen in science journals - has a powerful impact on comprehension and assimilation of data and scientific jargon.
Replies 2
Recommend 726
JAS commented May 11
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JAS
Lancaster PA ·
May 11
It’s striking to me that western medicine “Announces a groundbreaking discovery” while simultaneously calling eastern medicine quackery. The arrogance.
Scientific discovery of our human systems isn’t “Done” or anywhere near “ complete”. I wish doctors and insurance companies would stop with their “trust us we know best” nonsense and exhibit a little intellectual curiosity.
Replies 8
Recommend 675
HBot commented May 11
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HBot
Westchester ·
May 11
I really enjoyed the visual elements of this article! They brought the science to life.
Recommend 616
OnceOverseasProf commented May 11
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OnceOverseasProf
Madison, Wisconsin ·
May 11
Australia, among other nations, now requires its premed students to take coursework in traditional Chinese medicine. We should follow suit. In the years I lived there, I was never healthier and more relaxed with robust traditional massage once a week, acupuncture several times a year, organic remedies for common colds and coughs, and fresh vegetables prepared in a myriad of ways. Ancient civilizations have much to teach us!
Recommend 615
Alison Howard commented May 11
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Alison Howard
Berkeley Springs, WV ·
May 11
There will be many clinicians, known as alternative healers, who will be both ecstatic and irritated by this article. They have known about this system for their entire careers, and are known as cranial sacral, myo-fascia, and polarity therapists, to name a few. During yoga teacher training, we were taught about meridians. I’m glad that western science is catching up.
Replies 5
Recommend 538
Grace commented May 11
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Grace
Portland, OR ·
May 11
There is also another circulatory system - the Cerebrospinal Fluid system. This specialized fluid circulates throughout the brain/cranium and up and down the spinal canal at a rate of about 8-10 cycles/min, though this can vary. The CSF is produced by the choroid plexuses in the lateral, 3rd, and 4th ventricles of the brain. Well-trained, experienced cranio-sacral therapists utilize this system to relieve restrictions in the fascia system which can contribute to musculoskeletal issues, neuromuscular problems, as well as visceral dysfunctions.
Recommend 476
Sarah commented May 11
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Sarah
Minneapolis ·
May 11
I am stunned by the hubris of this article. Ancient wisdom from an eastern culture has been clouded over by centuries of western "experts" who didn't have the imagination or curiosity to learn about a system that connects two seemingly disparate anatomical functions. Just because they couldn't "see" it doesn't mean it wasn't there. This is not a discovery, people. It is an aha moment that uses modern technology to come to a conclusion that others reached long ago. Today's western doctors need to understand just how beautifully connected we are--both within our own bodies' functions and to the entire world of living things, including trees and fish and rivers. It's a closed loop system of mutual dependence. And the sooner we realize that the sooner we can heal ourselves and this dying planet.
Replies 6
Recommend 472
Sceptic commented May 11In reply thread
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Sceptic
Upstate NY ·
May 11
@Cathy Excellent point. Navigating the visual screens is distracting and annoying and unnecessary. The jerky boxes seem to have a life of their own. The graphics can easily be inserted in the text with normal scrolling.
Recommend 452
Jeremy commented May 11In reply thread
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Jeremy
Midwest ·
May 11
@Cathy This!
I understand that others may really like the way this is presented.
However, I have my subscription to the Times because I enjoy the quality of the writing. Please consider providing an alternative presentation for those of us who prefer in depth reading.
Replies 1
Recommend 407
AK commented May 11In reply thread
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AK
Chicago ·
May 11
@Cathy
It’s fine you want an alternative version of the feature, but there’s absolutely no reason to be so derisive of the work of the artists and editors who put this together.
Recommend 407
Lyle Ross commented May 11In reply thread
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Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
@Don B, I think you misunderstood. Every claim made in the article was based in experimental evidence. All the speculation was listed as speculation.
Science works this way. You make an observation, you speculate as to what it means, then you test that hypothesis.
I too am comfortable with Western medicine. Not so comfortable that I think it is the end all or that we've solved every problem. I am glad to see folks are still researching and pushing boundaries.
Recommend 380
David commented May 11
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David
CT ·
May 11
This method of presenting interesting factual information as a series of sliding cartoons with childish illustrations was very frustrating. I stopped reading and went elsewhere to read about this fascinating insight.
Replies 2
Recommend 374
C commented May 11In reply thread
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C
Portland ·
May 11
@Cathy The level of complaint here when faced with a piece that was clearly carefully and thoughtfully engineered is striking. What if we just suggest a text-only option in the future? This is a complex story that includes visuals to clarify the nuances. Medical textbooks are not “ for children “ and yet they explicate concepts with imagery.
Replies 3
Recommend 371
Fazzi Battaglia commented May 11
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Fazzi Battaglia
New York ·
May 11
People have know this intuitivly for ever but have been gaslighted into beliving its not. Our bodies are the exact mirror of the fabric of space.
Recommend 360
CJ commented May 11
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CJ
Down Under ·
May 11
This is so good and explained so well. I love it. And thank you to our scientists. And jurnos who put this article together.
Recommend 349
Seth Polley commented May 11
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Seth Polley
Texas ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating. We still don’t understand how our own bodies really work.
I always find it strange that people talk about creating AGI or creating a conscious machine when we haven’t even begun to understand how our bodies work, much less our brains, even less how we are conscious.
Replies 3
Recommend 262
Ithaca Reader commented May 11
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Ithaca Reader
Ithaca ·
May 11
I am not very good at reading these long NY Times visual essays, but I was curious if tattoos could cause illness so I did some research if tattoos are potentially toxic because of the interstitium.
I learned that Tattoo ink is injected into the dermis, but it does not stay there. A significant portion (60-90%) is transported via the interstitium to the lymph nodes and other organs. Tattoo inks-containing heavy metals, PAAs, and PAHs— can be toxic to this system by causing long-term inflammation, accumulating in lymph nodes, and triggering immune dysfunction.
Many inks contain hazardous chemicals and pigments that can include heavy metals like cadmium or mercury, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), which are linked to cancer and neurodegenerative diseases.
Recommend 254
JK commented May 11
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JK
Canada ·
May 11
I am a physician, but not a basic science person or researcher. To me this sounds like they're just calling the space between cells "a new circulatory system." As the article does say, we call this the interstitium. But the interstitial space is not a new discovery at all, the only novelty is calling it a circulatory system. Maybe the interesting part is just that new research is showing that more and further transportation of cells, hormones, etc. occurs within this space than previously thought (vs those things getting taken up and transported by the lymphatic or circulatory systems instead). Maybelline there's something I'm missing, though.
Recommend 246
pp commented May 11In reply thread
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pp
Columbia, SC ·
May 11
@Cathy I am a 49 year old fully grown adult who has struggled with processing lines of text for years, despite being an avid reader, thinker, and skilled writer. Only lately have I started to reckon with this and the realization that my thinking is far more structural and visual than textual or linear, but this doesn’t mean I’m less intelligent just because lines and lines of words on a page are harder for me to parse. It’s extremely frustrating to see visual thought characterized as “childish,” because it isn’t— what is frustrating to you is a relief to me, and that has nothing to do with my intellect being ruined by twitterfication of writing and reading. I continue to read religiously and write reams of words, it’s just an entirely different experience for me. The best approach would be to offer ideas in both a linear and textual style as well as this more graphic style so that a broader diversity of minds can engage them. No need to disparage the minds that use pictures more than sentences to understand the world. I’m grateful to see a publication involving such beautiful images to transmit scientific information.
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Bronwen M commented May 11
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Bronwen M
Merced, CA ·
May 11
Radiolab had an episode on this in Nov. 2023 that was quite good https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium?gad_campaignid=20986778840&gbraid=0AAAAAD9J8hHHITG-WoOSdz-AgdgHYGVkl
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DD commented May 11
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DD
upstate NY ·
May 11
That this fascinating insight could open a world of possible advances in therapies once again demonstrates the need for, and value of, basic scientific research. There is much to be done, but unfortunately this comes at a time when the prevailing ethos of the leaders of our government is primarily anti-science, as they cut funding and espouse beliefs rooted in magical thinking and folklore.
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Surprise me commented May 11
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Surprise me
Stockholm ·
May 11
…did I mention I had IBD cured through use of this information?
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Zoe commented May 11In reply thread
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Zoe
Alpha Centauri ·
May 11
@Cathy. As a graphic designer I love this format. It drives home the ideas with images. Please keep using the enhanced graphics. It really sets the Times articles apart.
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Susan F commented May 11
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Susan F
Western Mass ·
May 11
Up until a few decades ago, scientists didn't understand fascia either, they thought it was "inert." I suspect there is no inert or unconnected matter in our bodies. There's just connections we haven't discovered yet. As we see here, yet again.
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Jesse commented May 11
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Jesse
North Dakota ·
May 11
Acupuncture has been proven to have no benefit to the human body. There is evidence that the acupuncture community cannot even decide amongst themselves where on the body "chi" flows. Blind studies have shown that acupuncture is no better than a placebo.
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Nancy commented May 11In reply thread
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Nancy
Arlington, MA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen as an acupuncture patient I must disagree. I experienced a bad fall during a seizure a few years ago and injured my C-7 in my back. OTC meds were useless for the pain. Weekly appointments with my acupuncturist eliminated my pain and allowed me to function normally again. Everyone has different experiences. With the right practitioner and sharing details of your pain and location it can be a game changer.
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Vinnie K commented May 11
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Vinnie K
NJ ·
May 11
Fantastic to read this piece. Great slow graphics, too, giving time to absorb. And it is so nice to see researchers that have minds open to the "impossible" or "unknown."
Science is endlessly fascinating. And, yes, how often is it true that the "ancients" have been there before...
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Rennie commented May 11
Rennie
Rennie
Portland Oregon ·
May 11
This is a fascinating, wonderful article. I think the combination of text and graphics is great. Seeing the graphs as I was reading about the topic visually displayed really helped me understand how these bodily systems work. Thank you for this excellent writing and illustration.
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Jorge commented May 11In reply thread
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Jorge
Boston, MA ·
May 11
@Cathy I have the same thoughts. Sadly this is what our world is becoming and the youth of today have little ability to stay engaged without some photo or headline....The new style for websites is very much this way - small chunks with photos and graphics.
I guess it all started with 140 characters and Twitter.
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Deborah commented May 11
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Deborah
Pennsylvania ·
May 11
The Northeast is plagued with Lyme disease. After the initial course of antibiotics, established medicine and insurance coverage stops recognizing persistent health issues that are related to the disease. If cancer is able to travel through the body via this other circulatory system, isn’t it possible that Lyme might do the same in some instances? Too many individuals suffer through the effects of this tick borne plague with too few doctors accepting the validity of their complaints.
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Gkatny commented May 11
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Gkatny
Near NYC ·
May 11
The art and animation is superb! Really fun way to learn about this connection between ancient and new understandings of the human body.
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joy commented May 11
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joy
poughkeepsie ·
May 11
The Chinese have been told over and over again that there is no scientific evidence for Jingluo (literally "meridians and networks") in the human body, and that these therapies are superstition and psychological comfort. There has been so much effort to discredit the foundation of this part of traditional Chinese medicine, only to discover the network's existence. What a shame! This really should humble us to treat traditional knowledge differently.
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Desertbluecat commented May 11In reply thread
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Desertbluecat
Albuquerque ·
May 11
@Cathy I agree 100%. And for all the people saying "to the contrary"....good for you. Some of you like the visuals, some of us prefer text without the jerky boxes, text that doesn't suddenly disappear before we've finished reading, text that isn't over/under laid with visuals.
I've complained about this fancy schmancy text presentation before, but never thought to ask for a link to text. A simple solution that would satisfy all. You are brilliant Cathy!
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steve commented May 11
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steve
hawaii ·
May 11
The doubters here seem to be convinced that western medicine is somehow infallible.
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Sidewalk50 commented May 11In reply thread
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Sidewalk50
NYC ·
May 11
@Diane Brenner I agree. The graphics are insulting and they disrupt the flow (no pun intended) of information. In fact, I stopped reading. If I wanted a comic book, I’d buy a comic book.
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Rachel commented May 11
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Rachel
Boston ·
May 11
As someone who started studying acupuncture in the early 90's, I remember well that when I told folks about it, the most common response was, huh, what is that? In the past two decades, there has been a remarkable explosion in the numbers of people recognizing acupuncture as a legitimate healing modality. But there are always a few who want to know HOW it works, (most often as a way to poke holes in any argument on its supposed efficacy). This research is very cool, and is corroborated by what many of us have seen clinically. Most incredible is when a patient comes in with no knowledge of acupuncture, and yet when a needle is inserted, can trace sensations up the meridian, through pathways documented thousands of years ago in China. Now modern science is able to show this visually. Amazing!
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Concerned Citizen commented May 11
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Concerned Citizen
america ·
May 11
That's great! Except acupuncture doesn't work. The only scientific evidence that acupuncture works is for a very limited and specific location. None of the other stuff does what it says. Acupuncture has always been a pseudoscience. If portions of it were real and evidence based we'd have pulled them from the tradition and incorporated them into Western medicine - which I will remind people is not really just Western medicine it is practiced across the world. There are Chinese doctors who are trained in the scientific method and science. Would it not be realistic to assume tons of people have looked for this link (especially since chi has been known to the West for over 400 years as well).
Besides the fact that acupuncture doesn't work and so this could not give us a mechanism to explain how it does, those meridians that you show simply don't line up with the interstitial follow. A child could connect the dots better.
And finally interstitial fluid is simply not chi. Chi is said to be breath and vital energy and that you can manipulate it through martial arts, food, and meditation. That's not what this appears to be at all.
It's great that we found new anatomy and are learning new things about the human body but not every new discovery needs to be linked to some orientalist "ancient wisdom"
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Lyle Ross commented May 11
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Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
Cool! I am looking forward to the rigorous testing of some of the hypotheses written about here.
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Glen commented May 11
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Glen
Medina, MN ·
May 11
Amazing! Wonderful article! Graphics are key here! Thank you!
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James Firelocke commented May 11In reply thread
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James Firelocke
New Jersey ·
May 11
@Cathy
I actually found the illustrations very helpful. So maybe they can publish a version with visual effects, and one without.
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sujatha commented May 11
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sujatha
U.S. ·
May 11
Please stop saying “relatively recent discovery” about things China and India have known for 4000 years.
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Eric commented May 11In reply thread
Eric
Eric
Hudson Valley ·
May 11
@JAS.
"Western medicine" didn't announce anything.
Some scientists did some research and presented dome papers, and the New York Times wrote a story about it.
"Western medicine" isn't a person. Or an organization.
It's a body of knowledge and practices.
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Ed commented May 11In reply thread
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Ed
Michigan ·
May 11
@Cathy Sometimes this kind of progressive scroll really works well, especially when depicting a sequence of events. In this case though I agree with you. I found the effect to be distracting for the text blocks.
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Diana commented May 11
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Diana
New Bern,North Carolina, USA ·
May 11
We "discovered" America, when it was already civilized. And now this! When it was known.
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Barth commented May 11
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Barth
MA ·
May 11
This was beautifully illustrated, animated, and told. As a Radiolab fan, I can understand your editorial decision to tell the story this way.
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FCP commented May 11
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FCP
MA ·
May 11
I am a traditionally trained ( Johns Hopkins) physician. While I have not read the article yet, I was not told in medical school that the interstitium was isolated and separated in the manner this article implies. Many cells move through it. The lymphatic system is also ubiquitous at the microscopic level, so isolating its contribution would be very difficult.
I also do not find the connections to acupuncture particularly novel. Acupuncture has been an accepted therapy for decades in Western medicine, but the real difference is that its acceptance required clinical trials to demonstrate it worked and to demonstrate the diseases it was effective for.
The scientific method and clinical trials are the only reason western medicine has achieved civilization altering health results. Without them we would still be bleeding people and blaming “miasmas” for epidemics.
Yet many advocates of “ alternative medicine” and “ naturopaths” refuse to support clinical trials and believe they can “ practice” without any scientific knowledge, training or education.
Unfortunately the NIH and HHS are now under the control of these quacks.
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Jaki commented May 11
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Jaki
NJ ·
May 11
This was a fascinating and almost magical article. This place we call Earth is so cool.
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Sera commented May 11In reply thread
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Sera
Seattle ·
May 11
@Paul Doane Acupuncture was certainly not used in lieu of anesthesia for James Reston’s appendectomy (please, don’t try that at home!). Reston’s only claim was that acupuncture may have helped relieve some of his postoperative pain. A rather important distinction…
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Jim Loving commented May 11In reply thread
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Jim Loving
Alexandria VA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen Acupuncture has worked for many, including me, specifically for Post Herpetic Neuralgia. Agree more researched needed, but this comments seems to have an axe to grind.
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Martha Zoey commented May 11
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Martha Zoey
Osoyoos, BC ·
May 11
Excellent article! I remember learning about interstitial fluid in first year anatomy (or was it physiology?) class at chiropractic school in 1989. That was a long time ago, so not the newest “discovery!”
Recommend 116
Don B commented May 11
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Don B
Ithaca, NY ·
May 11
The article is about as scientific as one built on cartoons would lead one to suspect. Physicians quoted outside their area of expertise, constant deference to pseudoscience, one wonders if the followup replies in the scientific literature to these rather breathless claims will receive the same coverage.
To ask it is to answer it. Sober scientific analysis doesn't sell papers to the middle class layers focused on their hokum and bunkum as well as the latest "discoveries" related to the purity and essence of our bodily fluids.
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Larry commented May 11In reply thread
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Larry
Houston, TX ·
May 11
@Cathy Two comments: First, every browser has a "reader view" that will provide the text-based version that you are asking for. Simply google "reader view in browsers" for a description of this feature. If you are using the NYT app, you might suggest that the NYT add this feature to its app as well (though the app will let you copy the link to the article via the Share feature, which will allow you to open the article in your phone's browser).
Second, as we can see from the comments, many people enjoy this presentation; some even find it more conducive to their own way of processing information. While your request for a text-based version is quite reasonable, deriding these readers as "children who need picture books" is unnecessary at best, and mean-spirited at worst.
One final point: The NYT produces some of the best journalistic graphics of any publication (and I read a lot of them). Please keep up the good work!
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JimT commented May 11In reply thread
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JimT
Canada ·
May 11
@Cathy: Thanks for speaking for me on this point. I spent a lot of frustrating time trying to scroll back up to read paragraphs that wandered off just as I was trying to read it.
I note that your comment has the highest votes of any here, and appears at the top of the list.
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Elizabeth Volkmann commented May 11
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Elizabeth Volkmann
Massachusetts ·
May 11
Fascinating studies highlighted here. I do find it confounding, however, that modern medicine seems surprised when it is discovered that (1) ancient health and healing practices prove 'true' vis-a-vis a 'groundbreaking' finding; (2) that the human body has something in common with our earthly counterparts, in this case, early life forms - that somehow the human body developed spontaneously from all other life. Maybe there is a future where disciplines combine - modeled by the very interstitium the study highlights. We are more connected to each other and the earthly systems we come from and live among. Humility will always bring us closer to the truth.
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Prof Reader commented May 11In reply thread
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Prof Reader
Georgia ·
May 11
@Cathy
The problem here is that the graphics are more decorative than substantive. Yet, this genre is a perfect illustration of how digital texts create a sharper tension between prose and graphics, elevating the latter to existing on a more equal plane with prose. Richard Lanham has observed that traditionally we look through the visual presentation of prose, but look at the graphics. More poetically Beatrice Ward in the 1930s said that prose is the crystal goblet that holds the wine of meaning. Until multimedia digital texts emerged, prose was the main actor and graphics were the hand maiden. Now, at least occasionally, as in this example, graphics predominate, for better or worse.
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Michael J commented May 11In reply thread
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Michael J
California ·
May 11
@Cathy Reading text is a relatively new skill while reading visuals is more evolved in humans. Using multiple parts of your brain increases your overall intelligence. The same principle applies to training your nondominant hand to write or throw a ball. DaVinci wrote and read in mirror. He was pretty good at illustration, too.
I am an author illustrator. I’ve written book on learning the pictographic writing systems of Chinese and Japanese. I taught myself to count in letters, read numbers as words, recite the alphabet backwards, and am learning how to (somewhat) quickly read anagrams from words and phrases. Give ‘dyslexia’ a try. It will arouse your mind. ;- )
Bravo to the designers of this article!
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Kathleen Smith commented May 11
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Kathleen Smith
Northern NH ·
May 11
As an MD and an acupuncturist, I applaud this new science. The graphics are wonderful in the initial part of the article, then as one's interest is piqued, become an irritating impediment to learning more. Nonmedical readers may have found them charming and engaging. More details, please.
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Chip Kuhn commented May 11In reply thread
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Chip Kuhn
Bronx ·
May 11
@Cathy golly gee wiz.... I found the graphics quite helpful when trying to visualizing this medical frontier
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Ella commented May 11
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Ella
Longmont ·
May 11
this goes to show that 'science' is certainly not always at the vanguard, nor is science something fixed, to 'believe' in...I don't believe in science, but I respect it as a process. What it calls true is always changing, it is not a dogma, as even my leftist friends have begun to make it 'infallible' and censor questioning or conversations even about body autonomy (vaccines. abortion, is ok! but vaccines, your body is not yours). Meanwhile, i use alternative medicine to cure my autoimmune illnesses, which my western doctors called 'incurable' because their 'scientific' training is limited, and not always ahead of other sources of knowledge, and often neglects and dismisses things that are ancient wisdom from the east (non white men) from herbalists (women and other healers)
Recommend 97
Jack Z commented May 11
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Jack Z
Boston ·
May 11
Acupuncture and "Eastern Medicine" have consistently failed to show any serious proof beyond placebo. Comments rush to claim "the Chinese knew this for 4000 years" and "Western medicine is hubris", as if the age of medicine is an indicator of being effective. Humoral Theory is also thousands of years old, and also posits a system of fluid transfer in the body to achieve balance. I'm sure if you look at humor charts, they would also spuriously align with dye experiments. Yet nobody is rushing to claim "Humor Theory proven". Perhaps since Humor Theory is Western and meridians are Eastern, educated people rush to defend the latter and claim "they knew it all along" to prove their worldliness. Newsflash from a Chinese person: we are not all ancient Shaolin monks with the key to the universe, and our pre-industrial society was no healthier than your average medieval European village. Before 1800, all humans suffered from a 1/3 infant mortality rate and millions died from plague, smallpox, tuberculosis, and a host of other diseases. In the past 200 years "Western Medicine" (which is just code for replicable medicine with an action mechanism) has made these issues almost non-existent in contemporary developed societies. Our current focus should be extending these miracles to under-developed societies, not pursuing "ancient oriental wisdom" that hasn't worked for 4000 years. Many commenter are not as far off from MAHA as they may think. Also the graphics were annoying.
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Dr. T commented May 11
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Dr. T
United States ·
May 11
Nice article. Thank you. Would it be possible for NYT to provide a separate reading option for this type of article, which would allow the reader to have a simple text of the article, rather than having to scroll through the various illustrations? The presentations are nice, but some readers may just want the text version.
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Tim commented May 11
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Tim
Upstate, NY ·
May 11
Not an overly dramatic association of ancient Eastern medicine with contemporary Western but THIRD-SPACING has been known in the surgical-medical community for quite some time. Post-operative, traumatic fluid due to surgery and/or trauma is not in the cells, not in the vascular system and if it didn't have some form of movement system, all that fluid would probably drain into a huge pool drawn by gravity alone. But, that too is not the case, so an interconnected system probably does exist - it hasn't been well-defined.
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laurel commented May 11
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laurel
new york, ny ·
May 11
Fantastic article. This is the kind of positive, upbeat news story I prefer to read in the newspaper on a Monday morning. Puts an optimistic, hopeful spin on the entire week ahead.
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Thom commented May 11In reply thread
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Thom
Vermont ·
May 11
@braindoctor No, everything that touches our lives is political!! Whether we like it or not.
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Data Analyst commented May 11In reply thread
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Data Analyst
Maryland ·
May 11
First, let me clarify something for laypeople about how science works when examining efficacy. A single positive scientific study doesn't "prove" something works. Studies vary in design, rigor, and size. When examing evidence of efficacy, the entire body of scientific literature on that topic needs to be looked at holistically.
When looked at this way, a pretty clear pattern emerges in studies on accupuncture. Accupuncture appears to succeed in less rigorous studies, but performs no better than placebo--fake accupuncture--in studies that are better controlled.
In fact, the specific type of placebo used is very relevant to this story.
In he most rigorous studies, the placebo treatment is accupuncture needles inserted at non-accupuncture points. And this sham needling typically produces effects identical to "real" accupunture. In other words, the efficacy of accupuncture is due to the placebo effect.
The placebo effect produces real and powerful results. It does not mean that the cessation of your pain or inflammation was "fake"--patient experiences are real. It means that sticking needles in you had some real effect, but that effect was not due to convergence on meridians of energy.
These effects are also strongest for pain. Pain is highly subject to placebo effects in general, but needling does also appear to produce anti-pain chemical signaling in the body. So, again, patients can have real experiences, and meridians can be mthys.
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BeDoHave commented May 11In reply thread
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BeDoHave
phila pa ·
May 11
@Michelle You're right. Sort of like saying that Columbus discovered America when it was already there.
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Cat Lady commented May 11
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Cat Lady
Midwest ·
May 11
Wonderful article, well presented. For those of you complaining about the graphics, not everyone takes in information the same way you do. I liked the pauses, gave me a chance to digest what I’d read.
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John Mitchell commented May 11In reply thread
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John Mitchell
New York ·
May 11
@Cathy: In a Google Chrome browser, right-click in the article and choose "Open In Reading Mode". You will see two panes, with the graphics in the left pane and the text in the right pane. You can move the cursor near the border between the two panes and drag it to the left to shrink the size of the graphics pane.
I thought that the Firefox browser had a similar tool, but I couldn't find it. I don't know if other browsers have something similar.
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MW commented May 11
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MW
Illinois ·
May 11
As an acupuncturist in practice for 18 years I am often the last resort for patients who have not gotten results from Western medicine. And then acupuncture helps them. I appreciate and use western medicine myself - along with Traditional East Asian medicine (Chinese Medicine as referred here), chiropractic and functional medicine. However I am astounded when Americans dismiss ANY other medical system than western. Such hubris! With 4,000 years of history East Asian Medicine has western medicine beaten. It must be the money 😔.
Recommend 81
aacat commented May 11In reply thread
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aacat
Annapolis, MD ·
May 11
@Q And yet acupuncture has worked for people for a few thousand years. In this case, I don't think fake science is the problem as much as the rigid thinking in western medicine.
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Debby commented May 11In reply thread
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Debby
Upstate-ish ·
May 11
@Cathy I think the graphics are beautiful. However, I agree that articles like this should come with non-graphic versions for accessibility purposes.
I read the NYT on my phone. I recently upgraded my phone, and the graphics look great and behave well. This was not the case on my older phone. Subscribers shouldn’t have to have the latest phones to be able to use their expensive subscriptions. I have to wonder, too, how graphics-heavy articles work for vision-impaired people? I note that there is no audio option for this.
I am also frustrated by the amount of video the NYT is creating, where people who were hired to write are asked to be in front of the camera. I subscribe so I can read articles, not watch journalists speak to me. I would watch the news on tv if I wanted video.
Recommend 79
Eneli commented May 11
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Eneli
Milwaukee, WI ·
May 11
Interesting, but a honestly nuisance to read, all broken up into tiny bits.
How about the traditional essay form? I have no interest receiving information as if it were a text.
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JH commented May 11
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JH
New York, NY ·
May 11
Regarding the text embedded in mega graphics/video style of this article--I get that it puts food on the table for your graphics people. For those of us who just want to read the text on a desktop (yes, we still exist) it requires nonstop often pointless and confusing scrolling to get from one paragraph to the next. Perhaps you could offer both options for those of us who find it distracting, time wasting, and mostly pointless.
Recommend 77
Kevin commented May 11
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Kevin
CO ·
May 11
I am a general surgeon who has manipulated lots of interstitial tissue over a 30 year career (which often can be separated easily with the fingers or careful scissors dissection to achieve a welcome tissue plane) agree with the suggestion that extraordinary claims require more rigorous evidence but I was equally troubled by the suggested supposition that eastern and western medicine meet with this purported discovery as this seems to be thinly disguised hype to trigger interest in the article itself. How does sticking remarkably thin needles into this fluid space produce any change resulting in these remarkable anecdotal results? And how do vague applications of 4000 year old equally anecdotal energy support this meeting of the minds? I’m not saying there couldn’t exist a connection but it seems this ain’t it yet.
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Tim Wood commented May 11
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Tim Wood
Calhan Colorado ·
May 11
This is the first time I've seen the NY Times use a comic book style presentation of information on a piece of this length. Scrolling through the article is like going frame-to-frame in a comic book/graphic novel. One graphic with one related, focused voice-over of information is great a way to communicate in shorter pieces. But... there's an art to doing it when you go beyond the number of frames that are in sight at the same time.
Here, it feels counter-productive. The part of my brain that is automatically tieing sections of text together (hey... we're still below that section header! this paragraph is next to that one. that frame is by these other frames) is nuked by this approach. Scott McCloud and company probably said something brilliant about what the brain does subconsciously to help us connect those frames.
It also takes away the ability go back through quickly and find those key bits I want to save/review/etc... or when I have that aha moment and want to mentally check the cross-article connection I noticed. Woah! Chinese Medicine! I need to bring the summary of that into my next Tai Chi class ... tied together with that earlier thought out of western medicine. Flick flick flick.
While I don't want these to go away, maybe it's time to add a "display text only" button to these pieces... or a print to comic book pdf with six frames per page that I can move through far more quickly.
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Nadia Nagib Wallace commented May 11
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Nadia Nagib Wallace
Seattle ·
May 11
The “groundwater” of our bodies is now known. A wonderful metaphor!
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Science Enthusiast commented May 11In reply thread
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Science Enthusiast
New york ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen it’s wild to say “If portions of it were real and evidence based we'd have pulled them from the tradition and incorporated them into Western medicine” when that appears to be what’s happening now. That’s how scientific advancements happen. The research that could change that is actively happening right now. That’s what the article was about.
Recommend 74
Alex commented May 11In reply thread
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Alex
NUC ·
May 11
Ancient Chinese medicine also recommended consuming mercury... how long did it take their own institutions to pivot from that idea? What hubris might have slowed the processes of abandoning the practice?
Look up Qin Shi Huang.
The ancient medical professionals in China were no more or less prone to human shortcoming than we are now, and their institutions likewise.
Any insistence they are otherwise is simply western fetishization of China. I find it ironic how those who see them through this lens or so cocksure of themselves. I
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Recommend 73
Harry Haff commented May 11
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Harry Haff
New Bern NC ·
May 11
Great article: presentation, content and impact.
My wife and I had a small business years ago. She did the office work and I did production. After about 3-4 years she had a total physical collapse. We lived close to an Ivy League University and medical school. After maybe a dozen visits, a long list of specialists, their conclusion was we can do nothing, and get you affairs in order Luckily, in the next town over an accupuncturist had just returned to the US from several years in China and opened a practice near us. He simply said on the first visit,"Do not say a word about what you heard at the Medical Center." He did his extensive evaluation and started treatment. My job was to brew these awful smelling teas between treatments. So stincky that when our cats saw the teapot they would run outdoors. During a New England winter! About 3 months later she was cured and fine and went back to the U Medical center. The doctors refused to believe her.
Nuff said.
Recommend 73
SharBrem commented May 11
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SharBrem
Bremen, Germany ·
May 11
Why in the world are scientists surprised that our bodies (all biological entities) are coordinated systems, that within our bodies, everything EVERYTHING is dependent on and coordinated with everything else? There is no separation of systems.
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Recommend 73
pethistorian commented May 11
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pethistorian
Onancock, VA ·
May 11
Thank you for the graphics in this article! They allowed me to visualize the systems and processes discussed.
I have used accupuncture in the past -- and I also used it on an elderly horse for pain relief -- but now you have me thinking about returning to it for some other ailments associated with aging.
Recommend 73
Ell commented May 11
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Ell
Maine ·
May 11
Don’t need all the visuals. It is hard to read with all the moving graphics, is there a way to have an option to read the article!
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Recommend 72
W Park commented May 11
W
W Park
NY ·
May 11
Been thinking about this my entire career as a vascular surgeon. The interstitium is how we carry the mother sea with us onto the earth and into space. https://medium.com/op-m-ed/new-interest-in-the-interstitium-is-like-people-suddenly-obsessing-about-the-stuffing-in-sofas-308b1336a317
Recommend 72
R S commented May 11
R
R S
Santa Fe, NM ·
May 11
Anyone interested in Fascia might want to check out the work of Dr Guimberteau. He has done the work on showing how fascia works in the body. His video work of living fascia is the cornerstone of Modern Anatomy today.
Recommend 71
Mr Mster commented May 11In reply thread
M
Mr Mster
US ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen I take your point about the fluid versus chi. But acupuncture "not working" is a different argument that you can't/didn't defend.
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Te commented May 11
T
Te
Idaho ·
May 11
Doc here, the interstitium is long known and accounted for, if not fully understood. We call it "third spacing" when patients are volume overloaded and fluid fills the interstitium. This fluid (and many good/bad molecules in it) can be assisted in migrating into lymphatics and blood stream, which then transports it to our organs for processing. The interesting part of the article to me, is that there are 'streams' (my word) within the interstitium that mirror eastern meridians!
Recommend 70
Mostly Rational commented May 11In reply thread
M
Mostly Rational
New Paltz ·
May 11
@Paul Doane
Reston's anesthesia was provided by chemical means. The acupuncture stuff was hype.
Here's Reston's account, as reported in this very newspaper: https://www.nytimes.com/1971/07/26/archives/now-about-my-operation-in-peking-now-let-me-tell-you-about-my.html
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New Eyes commented May 11
N
New Eyes
Clovis, California ·
May 11
Barbara A. Brennan, NASA astrophsicist & founder of the Brennan school of Healing and Alan Turing in his 1952 paper on morphogenesis have already linked them. Brennan's "Hands of Light" and "Light Emerging" explain the metaphysics and metaphysics. Brennan noted that the fascia seems to be the energy pathway to restore non-functional organs to operational. Likewise, Turing used wavelength and diffusion equations in fluid biological systems in space to predict physical forms and that form can change given different energy inputs--i.e. genetics is not the prime mover even in biology contrary to Wason and Crick.
Eastern medicine has always allowed for change--Western has not as it looks at the wrong process and pathway.
It is always about process--and if knows what the process actually is, then the door is open to making effective change. The definition of materialism is intelligence in matter, but what the Eastern and Einstein/Turing found, is that intelligence is not in matter, but in incorporeal Infinite Intelligence as the only actor/action.
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Recommend 69
braindoctor commented May 11In reply thread
b
braindoctor
USA ·
May 11
@Elizabeth Can’t we just enjoy the visuals and the descriptions of scientific discoveries without turning things political?
Replies 3
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NLF commented May 11In reply thread
N
NLF
Texas ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen acupuncture absolutely works. I was dubious, but after 2 years trying to fix my shoulder pain with traditional medicine, acupuncture full on got rid of it. Perhaps your practitioner was deficient. If you have chronic pain, maybe try again with someone else. It’s actually unbelievable how well it works.
Recommend 68
Tom Cunneff commented May 11In reply thread
T
Tom Cunneff
Charleston, S.C. ·
May 11
@Elizabeth Couldn't agree more. I don't understand how science became partisan. But perhaps it has something to do with evolution and the biblical implications. But scientists are not in cahoots! They love nothing more than to prove other scientists wrong. SAVE SCIENCE! Our lives depend on it.
Recommend 66
Ella commented May 11
E
Ella
Amherst,ma ·
May 11
When I lived in Tokyo many years ago, I was a patient at a big Red Cross Hospital several times. My doctor gave me Chinese herbs for bronchitis. And antibiotics for an infection. The same doctor. When I asked him about his approach he simply said that Chinese medicine was good for some specific things and Western medicine was also good for some specific things, so why wouldn't you use both? A very practical approach!
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Recommend 66
JED commented May 11
J
JED
Texas ·
May 11
I was a co-author on a detailed description of the extracellular matrix makeup of the developing chicken limb. That was in the early 90's. The idea of interstitial space made up of extracellular matrix proceeds me and my colleagues study by decades. This article does not describe a great new discovery, it describes as old discovery repackaged as something new and exciting, like three-ply toilet paper, or free-range eggs.
Recommend 66
Michael commented May 11
M
Michael
Cle Elum WA ·
May 11
Wrong design choice, put away your electric crayons please.
I found the format for this article to be anything but helpful toward understanding and retaining the information. Why the cartoons? Do we need to gamify EVERYTHING?
Just present it as a factual essay, left aligned and 12 pt font and it would be a far more tolerable experience.
Recommend 66
Human commented May 11
H
Human
World ·
May 11
Cancer spreading in the body as well as feeling pain that is unassociated with injury somewhere else in the body are the 2 things that come to mind for me in relation to the interstitium. These have been happening for a very long time. I think it’s wild that the basis example to prove this is from mapping where tattoo ink traveled.
Recommend 64
CitizenCO commented May 11
C
CitizenCO
Denver, CO ·
May 11
My Chinese medicine Dr applying acupuncture to me said "Good, the west now knows what Chinese medicine has known for 6,000 years" when I told her about the article.
Recommend 63
Andi P. commented May 11
A
Andi P.
DC Metro ·
May 11
Wow, this is absolutely fascinating!! Humans keep on discovering new scientific things, and I absolutely love reading about it. Thank you, NYT, for the way you displayed the digital version of the article; I enjoyed the flow and helpful graphics -- the visuals are really useful for better understanding the science. So freakin' cool.
Recommend 63
Steve commented May 11In reply thread
S
Steve
New York ·
May 11
@Alison Howard
There are also many charlatans out there. As a physician acupuncturist it has always distressed me when I seem acupuncturists and other non-physician "healers" who make all sorts of claims for treating a variety of illnesses for which they had no evidence of any sort.
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Recommend 62
KB commented May 11
K
KB
South Haven, MI ·
May 11
The format makes this incredibly frustrating to read. It would be nice to have a button to remove the graphics and read as a regular, long form article
Recommend 62
C Wolfe commented May 11In reply thread
C Wolfe
C Wolfe
Bloomington IN ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
That's the trouble with militant rationalism. Once you've asserted that something can't be true because it offends a sense of what's rational based on your knowledge at a particular time, then you become less open to incorporating "squishy" knowledge—information that doesn't fit codified systems of thought. Which is exactly what the article is about: the existence of a system that's been little known but which now has to be factored into a holistic understanding of how the body works. You're resisting this new information because you're afraid it lends credence to something you're rejected as irrational.
Many individuals find relief in acupuncture. You seem not to have considered that there's no scientific "proof" of that because there was insufficient understanding of this interstitial system to devise methodological testing. Revisit this paragraph:
"Acupuncture is used to treat conditions as varied as chronic pain, migraines, seasonal allergies and nausea caused by chemotherapy, but some of its actions have never been completely explained. The discovery of the interstitium may help us understand in modern biomedical terms how acupuncture works."
(Like others, I would like to give the article a second read as continuous text. The graphics create a useful impression the first time, but the overkill is distracting if I want to go back and made sure I understood this idea new to me as a cohesive whole.)
Recommend 61
Ann Hocevar commented May 11
A
Ann Hocevar
South Carolina ·
May 11
i really dislike these piecemeal presentations. i will no longer ever even begin one again. there might be interesting information somewhere there, but it is not worth what your presentation requires to get to it.
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Recommend 61
YassBee commented May 11In reply thread
Y
YassBee
Paris ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen In a randomized clinical trial published in JAMA, including 800 older adults with chronic lower back pain (CLBP), acupuncture needling (both a standard course and additional maintenance sessions) improved pain-related disability with CLBP at 6 months and 12 months, with no statistically discernible benefit of additional maintenance sessions.
These findings suggest that acupuncture needling is an effective and safe treatment option for older adults with CLBP. DeBar LL, Wellman RD, Justice M, et al. Acupuncture for Chronic Low Back Pain in Older Adults: A Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA Netw Open. 2025;8(9):e2531348. doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2025.31348
Recommend 60
Hello, Kitty commented May 11In reply thread
H
Hello, Kitty
Portland, OR: Last in math/first in meth ·
May 11
@CB. I too liked the pictures, but I think Cathy was just asking that a text only version be made available. As someone whose father would be both interested in the material and has difficulty manipulating his phone, that seems like a reasonable request.
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Recommend 60
mathitis scholeiou commented May 11In reply thread
m
mathitis scholeiou
Brooklyn, NY ·
May 11
@Cathy It's hard not to escape the conclusion that the article was presented with such flashiness (yet so inaccessibly and ineffectively) specifically so that people could not give it the proper scrutiny.
The article makes the error of dividing the world into "western" and "eastern" medicine. In fact, there is scientifically supported medicine and not scientifically supported medicine. Calling the former "western" has always been intended to demonize it. It calls to mind (as also reflected by many in these threads) arrogant westerners, baselessly thinking themselves superior, and portrays proponents of alternative medicine as the open-minded who go beyond the limits of western ethnocentrism.
This is the oldest marketing ploy for alternative medicine.
I would have loved to have seen a more serious attempt to engage with the relevant research as well as to give skeptics more of a voice in the piece.
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Recommend 59
Liza Morrison commented May 11
L
Liza Morrison
Syracuse ·
May 11
Clever presentation of the idea that fascia and the interstitium may play an important role in illness and in healing. Also an important acknowledgement of 4,000 years of Chinese medical theory. I am reminded, as an American and a human, to be aware of the arrogance we so often bring to solving problems. Many, many other cultures live longer, fuller, richer lives. Approaching our assumptions, our "facts," and our "norms" with more humility would benefit us and, indeed, the world.
Recommend 59
Giovanna commented May 11
G
Giovanna
Italy/New York ·
May 11
It's discouraging to see how many commenters have a profound misunderstanding of science. "Western medicine" isn't at all opposed to "Eastern medicine." What we call Western medicine simply uses the scientific method and forms conclusions based on evidence. If evidence supports the efficacy of a practice, and we can figure out how that practice works, well, that's all Western medicine is. If you start talking about mystical energy pathways and have no evidence to support your theory, then of course scientists won't be very interested. But if you ascribe those same energy pathways to an identifiable biological mechanism and provide evidence to back up your theory, scientists will take you very seriously. It's not western vs eastern. It's just a question of whether certain hypotheses are supported by evidence.
The beauty of "Western medicine" is that we don't dismiss something just because we don't understand it. We try to figure out how and why it works.
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Recommend 59
Konda commented May 11
K
Konda
California ·
May 11
The Indian sytem of medicine - Ayurveda - divides the body into three segments - Vatha, Pittha, and Kapah.
There are people still treaded and cured with this ancient medicine system. My own heel pain was cured in 2 weeks after years of failed modern medicine treatments.
We need to find out how the anicient sytems deducted and treated ilness. It is fascinating.
Recommend 59
Sasha Zill commented May 11
S
Sasha Zill
Huntington, West Virginia ·
May 11
As an Anatomist with decades of experience teaching in medical school, I am highly skeptical of calling this an 'astounding discovery', let alone one that links eastern and western medicine. The interstitial space has been described in all anatomy textbooks. However, it shows considerable variability among individuals in both imaging of living humans and in dissections of cadavers. In addition, more is unknown than known about the potential contribution of the interstitium to acupuncture, most notably in the time course of its effects. In sum, the article is highly speculative and the science forms more the basis of a modest grant proposal than a front page news article.
Recommend 58
Blue State commented May 11In reply thread
B
Blue State
I vote ·
May 11
@Nic W
Last time I looked at 2026… you’re stating something that is biased and not the case anymore
“Traditional Chinese medicine has shown to be helpful in alleviating symptoms associated with nerve damage from chemotherapy.”
The above is from a quick AI search on traditional Chinese medicine. I could tell you my success story with traditional Chinese medicine, but the attitude in your comment is so dismissive and clueless that what would the point be?
You have already completely dismissed it based on old timey bias that is long outdated now… what was the point of writing that?
Recommend 58
Jim commented May 11
J
Jim
Florida ·
May 11
As a professor medical physiology, I have taught for decades about fluid traveling in "rivulets" through the interstitium. What is new seems to be the role that this plays in the spread of disease through your body.
And, people are very quick to disparage "Western" medicine and praise Chinese medicine. Remember that life expectancy in China in 1900 was about 35 years, despite their millennia of practice with acupuncture. Now it's similar to ours, in the upper 70s. Not because they suddenly got better at acupuncture, but mostly due to the development of antibiotics and vaccines that kept 40% of their (and our) children from dying before the age of 10.
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Recommend 57
M commented May 11
M
M
NJ ·
May 11
You can connect peoples together when you’re curious instead of dismissive.
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Metastasis commented May 11In reply thread
M
Metastasis
Oilistan ·
May 11
@JAS
Calm down. Just because you read something doesn't mean you can a) over-interpret it or b) use it as an organizing principle for everything else.
So let me summarize this article: there have been scientific advances that provide a mechanistic underpinning for aspects of traditional medicine that have been validated scientifically. Many other aspects of traditional medicine have not been validated.
But getting on the high horse we reinforce separation of cognitive approaches. Instead, we should celebrate another step .
Traditional medical practices accumulated over thousands f years have provided some important advances. There's also a lot of garbage that amounts to mythology. A scientific evaluation is critical to sort the wheat from the chaff.
Replies 1
Recommend 56
Steve commented May 11In reply thread
S
Steve
Colorado ·
May 11
@Michelle - Maybe just a verification that it also fits into the scientific model?
In other words, it's clear that it has worked for thousands of years but now we know why.
Recommend 56
Steve commented May 11In reply thread
S
Steve
New York ·
May 11
@Paul Doane
You are incorrect in your description of James Reston's experience. He didn't have acupuncture for anesthesia but rather for post operative pain management.
Back in a time of easement in relations between the U.S. and China, American doctors would visit China and, thinking as you did, that the Chinese used acupuncture for anesthesia. The American docs were surprised that the Chinese were using the same anesthesia methods as they did and the Chinese docs considered it an insult as they felt that the Americans were insulting them by thinking they weren't aware of modern medicine.
Recommend 54
Common Tater commented May 11In reply thread
C
Common Tater
TX ·
May 11
@JAS When the elites in China get sick, they run as fast as they can for "Western medicine". Unless you think they run to the traditional Chinese practitioners first? One of the reasons Mao pushed TCM was that there was to Western medicine available!
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Recommend 52
Karen commented May 11
K
Karen
Denver ·
May 11
The information presented in this article is fascinating. The format was incredibly frustrating.
While I appreciate the graphics, I would greatly prefer that they be offered alongside the text, or that there was an option for a text-only format.
Replies 2
Recommend 52
George commented May 11In reply thread
G
George
London ·
May 11
@Michelle no. Because Chinese medicine didn’t identify the physical structures involved. Ie fascia, interstices. That’s why people were rightly sceptical of it
Replies 1
Recommend 52
Plant Lover commented May 11In reply thread
P
Plant Lover
Iowa ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills
I agree, as the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Replies 1
Recommend 52
Kathleen commented May 11
K
Kathleen
Jersey Shore ·
May 11
I have suffered chronic pain for the past five years due to damage in my back. i am under care by a nuerologist and a pain management doctor at Columbis. These doctors have prescribed medications that enable me to function. Acupuncture has enabled me to feel better with less medication and improved my quality of life.
Recommend 51
Larry Oswald commented May 11In reply thread
Larry Oswald
Larry Oswald
Coventry CT ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
My daughter the vet sometimes uses acupuncture on DOGS. She says it sometimes works as evidenced by gait. If they limp in and scamper out that is good. Hard to attribute this to placebo maybe. Anyway we smarties who know something for sure are overestimating our own chi. /;>)
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Recommend 51
Daniel Alpert commented May 11
D
Daniel Alpert
Manhattan ·
May 11
Not only did you summarize this amazing news in an understandable fashion, but this may be one of the greatest graphic interface pieces I have ever seen. A thing of beauty in itself. Well done!
Recommend 51
JW commented May 11
J
JW
PNW ·
May 11
'Ground breaking'? It only took 4000 years for the Western medical establishment to start to understand & accept Chinese/Eastern Medicine. Maybe step two is to stop calling things like acupuncture 'alternative' medicine and begin treating patients through a holistic lens...Of course, this may cut into profits, so I'm not holding my breath.
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Recommend 51
Ben commented May 11
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Ben
Toronto ·
May 11
Frankly, it is a disservice to the public for a newspaper to publish something less akin to reportage and more akin to wishful-thinking or imaginative futurism, under the guise of reportage.
Recommend 51
CO commented May 11
C
CO
Here ·
May 11
What a creative, uplifting and foundational gift of information this is. These are the signs of hope we need to focus on. The presentation is beautiful. Keep up the artistry of science.
Recommend 51
Emxx commented May 11In reply thread
Emxx
Emxx
CT ·
May 11
@Diana
Perfect analogy.
Recommend 51
Christina commented May 11
C
Christina
Cape Cod ·
May 11
I wonder what implications this could have for people suffering from fibromyalgia.
Replies 2
Recommend 50
Alex Smith commented May 11In reply thread
A
Alex Smith
San Francisco ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills - also a physician - same experience. Came to comments to see if others similarly praised the presentation medium. Somewhat surprised at the negativity! To the authors - well done - love the innovation. Visuals and clear short text combined to bring home the point. This issue is almost easier "seen" than "read."
Recommend 50
Louise commented May 11
L
Louise
NYC ·
May 11
My grandmother was a TCM practitioner (acupuncturist and herbalist), and my parents both studied TCM before becoming MDs and practicing emergency medicine / cardiology in NYC. So growing up, I understood that ancient frameworks and modern medicine are complementary. TCM as a framework for general daily wellness and preventative health, and western medicine for everything from routine lab work to acute care. They belong together.
I hope we can all stay curious about what we don't yet have the framework to explain. as an American I am proud of our history of research and scientific discovery capabilities but also understand there is so much we have not discovered. some of these discoveries may challenge our current framework of the body and mind. I think of it like color perception. We know there are colors other species can see that we cannot. We can try and try to find them using the RGB spectrum, but we know that RGB alone can't get us there. You'd need a different framework to see what those other species see.
This isn't a team sport. It's not modern vs. ancient, or East vs. West. We all benefit when we approach health and life with curiosity and humility and work toward a holistic philosophy.
Replies 2
Recommend 49
MatthewJohn commented May 11
M
MatthewJohn
Illinois ·
May 11
I have several advanced degrees, but I am not a scientist. This article was informative and engaging. It was a perfect introduction to the topic. Thank you
Recommend 49
Maria commented May 11In reply thread
M
Maria
New Jersey ·
May 11
@Cathy Agreed. Many thanks for expressing this sentiment so well. No need for me to comment except to you: Many thanks.
Recommend 48
Eva Lockhart commented May 11
E
Eva Lockhart
Minneapolis ·
May 11
Cranial sacral specialists work with babies after difficult deliveries. Accupuncturists help with countless conditions. (They helped me with stress when I was still working, and sleeping issues) and an extremely high percentage of women, including my daughter, who were experiencing infertility due to polysistic ovaries, became pregnant after being treated by an amazing, very elderly acupuncture specialist here in Minneapolis, as well. It is about time that western medicine started recognizing eastern medicine. Fascinating article and cool graphics.
Recommend 48
Kiki commented May 11
K
Kiki
San Francisco ·
May 11
Some people here are dissing acupuncture. Well, acupuncture saved my life when my thyroid and migraines were out of control. I don't know how my life would have gone without it. It really does work for a lot of people.
As for the graphics, I've never seen so many disparaging comments in previous graphic articles. Some of us are visual learners. They were very effective in helping me literally picture what's going on in the body. Thanks, Jerome.
Replies 3
Recommend 48
My Name commented May 11
M
My Name
Is Sam I Am ·
May 11
What a farce! Is it at all surprising that this article, which unselfconsciously attributes the “discovery” of anatomic knowledge of the circulatory system and lymphatic system to two post-renaissance European men, would also make some bombastic claims about a “very recent knowledge” & a “new understanding” that proved a connection between “Eastern” and “Western” medicine? I think not.
First, William Harvey did NOT discover the circulatory system - it’s a preposterous claim.
Advanced concepts of medicine, anatomy, surgery, etc. predate the renaissance by hundreds if not thousands of years. “Modern Western medicine” was built on the backbone of the work of luminaries like Ibn-Sina ( His compendium - the Canon of Medicine - was referenced for nearly 500 years after his death by European medical practitioners) and other members of a “knowledge society” that flourished in the fertile soil present at many points in Islamic civilizations from South Asia to Spain between AD 800-1400.
Recommend 48
Jack commented May 11
J
Jack
Truckee ·
May 11
The authors have made a bigger deal out of this than it warrants. It's not exactly news that things can move through the interstitial space. How do you think subcutaenous and intramuscular vaccines and other drugs reach the rest of the body? "Diffusion" would seem to be a more accurate description of the movement of molecules through the interstitial space than "flow". And connecting this phenomenon to acupuncture or "Eastern medicine" seems a stretch, to put it mildly.
Replies 1
Recommend 48
Laura McDermott commented May 11
L
Laura McDermott
Hebron, NY ·
May 11
Fascinating! I’m almost as impressed with the manner in which this complex information is presented as the information itself. Kudos to the NYT artists and writers. We need science understandable - now more than ever. Thank you.
Recommend 47
PaperTrope commented May 11In reply thread
P
PaperTrope
New Braunfels ·
May 11
@Cathy They already do. It is printed in The New York Times Magazine. The hard copy might be worth a splurge for people who can't handle the creative and nuanced digital article.
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Erin W. commented May 11
E
Erin W.
Buffalo, NY ·
May 11
I just want to commend the author and artist who created this article! The writing and images worked together extremely well to convey these complex and exciting ideas. I'm so glad the NY Times continues to pay artists for this kind of work instead of using AI.
Recommend 47
Doug M commented May 11In reply thread
D
Doug M
Seattle ·
May 11
@Cathy
I totally agree. As a physician, I’m particularly interested in reading the article. But it’s a nightmare to try to read on a cell phone. Please redo the article New York Times. Just put it in an easily readable format!
Recommend 46
Steve commented May 11
S
Steve
New York ·
May 11
I am a physician acupuncturist and believe the article may have overlooked something of importance.
It fails to note something else about the most common acupuncture points: there is a great overlap between them and the most common trigger points which are painful points throughout the body.
So this discovery may not only be important in understanding the disorders mentioned in the article but also chronic pain conditions such as fibromyalgia the etiology of which remains largely a mystery.
Replies 1
Recommend 45
Tom G commented May 11In reply thread
T
Tom G
Clearwater FL ·
May 11
@C. Well, the accompanying visuals are hardly an accurate representation of any of the body systems the article describes
Recommend 45
Laura From Michigan commented May 11
L
Laura From Michigan
Michigan ·
May 11
I have had chronic lower back pain for almost twenty years, bursitis in both hips and osteoarthritis in both hands - all painful conditions that have been limiting how I move for years. I have tried massage, chiropractics, physical therapy (always six weeks 2 to 3 sessions per week- who has the time?) several times for each condition, cortisone shots, and of course pain pills (thanks to my western medicine doctor!) all with limited to no success. I finally tried acupuncture. Two sessions over two days back to back in the middle of March. For the first time ever- almost immediate relief! My walking has returned to the fast pace I enjoyed ten and more years ago with no hip pain! My left hand is totally pain free! I can stand for long periods of time at my sink or stove without being in agony from my back pain! I can't even begin to express the difference this had made on my 56 year old body. My husband even commented that I seem to have more energy, but in truth, it is not that I have more energy, it is that I have no pain so I am able to move more! I had those acupuncture sessions while on vacation and the acupuncturist urged me to find a reputable acupuncturist in my area for occasional "maintenance", which has proved difficult (distance, not qualifications). If only my western medical insurance would pay for acupuncture I bet more practitioners would open offices away from major cities as this is the most effective treatment for all of my body pain I've ever had!
Replies 1
Recommend 45
SiteReader commented May 11
S
SiteReader
Massachusetts ·
May 11
Has popular illiteracy reached so far that an important and fascinating discover must be presented in the form of an animated comic strip? Why not go all the way and make a cartoon of it?
Replies 3
Recommend 45
Bob commented May 11
B
Bob
Seattle ·
May 11
To all the commentators complaining about the presentation i.e. visuals vs text, I can only ask...Is that what you take from this wonderful reporting? Seems kinda like missing the forest from the trees.
Recommend 45
V. R. commented May 11
V
V. R.
New York ·
May 11
What a great article and illustrations. It reminds me of a collaboration between Vilém Flusser and Louis Bec although an entirely different path of speculative biology. The book is Flusser’s Vampyrotheutis Infernalis. As to the study in the NYT article I kept thinking of the rhizomatic network in the forest as the “informant” of nutrients for the flora and trees. There’s indeed so much in common going on in our bodies and other natural systems. Knowledge should never be so fragmented that we don’t comprehend these systems as patterns in nature. We are all fractals after all.
Recommend 45
Patricia commented May 11In reply thread
P
Patricia
Cincinnati ·
May 11
@Alison Howard Thank you for mentioning these other modalities. I had chronic pain since childhood, and western medicine could not address it at all. So I sought relief through yoga, myo-fascial bodywork, acupressure/Shiatsu, acupuncture and Ayurveda. I have been pain free for the past 22 years! And I have dedicated my entire adult life to the study and practice of offering other people these “alternative healing” modalities. I think of it as filling the “gap” in our western medical system. I am thinking that this “new discovery” sounds very similar to the “perifascia” that anatomist, Gil Hedley, has been talking about for the past 20 years. So yes, I am delighted to see articles written about the unseen, but very much real systems and connections in the body. But frustrated that these alternate models are only seen as valid when western medicine finally catches up.
Recommend 44
Brenda commented May 11In reply thread
B
Brenda
Upper Midwest ·
May 11
@Cathy I understand your complaint, and I often feel the same way, but in this case the illustrations/animations are actually helping to visualize the content in a very useful way. It isn't solely an enormous waste of space. That said, an alternate text-only option seems reasonable,.
Recommend 44
S L Hart commented May 11
S
S L Hart
Missouri ·
May 11
Just think where this could go if only countries like China and USA could put science ahead of politics.
Science is our future and politics is its antithesis.
Replies 1
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Gdawg commented May 11
G
Gdawg
Hotnstickiana ·
May 11
Thank you NYT. This is why I subscribe and read. I'm a PhD academic microbial biologist but miss things outside of what is my broad research range. Articles like this open doors and the comments are almost as fascinating, both those that are positive and negative. To those who are unimpressed or critical, speak your piece but remember that we all should take an opportunity to learn something new.
Recommend 44
Ann commented May 11
A
Ann
Earth north ·
May 11
Love the graphics. Really helped me understand the difference between the three systems. And the colors were nice—gave the feel and depth of fascia. I guess some do not like, maybe they need a text only version, but I really appreciated it.
Recommend 44
Sharon Walthew commented May 11
S
Sharon Walthew
Pittsfield, MA ·
May 11
So does this apply to women as well? Every single drawing is unabashedly male. I had this issue at a hospital pain clinic for 6 months. 'Circle the area where the pain is" and I would write, next to the male drawing, "My body does not look like this." When will the medical field come to terms with the fact that the "human" body is not a male body? Certainly not in this article.
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Nic W commented May 11
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Nic W
South Carolina ·
May 11
The idea of an interstitial space where fluids, etc., can move has been known for a long time. I'm not sure that the connection to acupuncture makes sense, given the lack of clarity that the system gives as to where the points are or how moving fluid around the interstitial space fixes a problem. Also, Chinese studies about acupuncture are extremely biased and have shown a 100% success rate across the literature, which is impossible, so take some of these sources with a big grain of salt.
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Jon C. commented May 11
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Jon C.
North Carolina ·
May 11
This paper doesn't even mention the recently discovered glymphatic system in the brain, a deep paravascular network thought to be responsible for waste clearance , regulation of cerebrospinal fluid and venous drainage, and who knows what else. Could the brain's glymphatic system be more extensive within the nervous system (ie spinal cord and peripheral nerves). Could it be connected to the interstitium? A true "mind-body" connection. This is all proof that we no little about how the human body works in sickness and in health
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T Irv commented May 11
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T Irv
Ontario, Canada ·
May 11
As a person on the hypermobility spectrum and suffering from an autoimmune disorder, I really hope that science exploring this system will begin to take off. It is long overdue.
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Francis commented May 11
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Francis
Thunder Bay Canada ·
May 11
Sorry, as a scientist I find this article underwhelming. I read this article as well as the original scientific report in Communications Biology. This NYT article overstates the conclusions that the authors found in their report.
First, acupuncture meridian's aren't just a pathway for fluids: they are a pathway for Qi, a supposed energy that has no empirical evidence.
Second, making the jump that this interstitial pathway follows an acupuncture meridian is a far fetched conclusion. "Meridians" follow from the extremities to the torso. Fluids (blood, lymph, etc.) all obviously do too. To attribute this discovery to some sort of east-west medicine nexus is inappropriate.
Third, in the original scientific report, the authors report that interstitial spaces are connected by a network of collogen. Cool science, absolutely, not not earth shattering. (I'm not throwing shade on this work at all, just pointing out that it's not as ground breaking as the NYT claims.)
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Laurel commented May 11
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Laurel
FL ·
May 11
This visuals did nothing to illuminate any concepts discussed in the article nor did they increase any understanding of the science or biology in this research. A graphic depicting the ink and how it travels the interstitial spaces and how the spaces are interconnected would have been very useful. These were just an irritating distraction.
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Currents commented May 11
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Currents
NYC ·
May 11
Proof that medicine, with all its advances, has so much more to learn and discover.
Wonderful article so easy for a layman to understand. Loved the visuals and the analogies.
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Picasso's Revenge commented May 11
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Picasso's Revenge
Hillsboro, OR ·
May 11
In reading this article I’m reminded that one of the most valuable attributes of a research scientist, and for a physician, is humility.
By the way, that goes for the rest of us as well.
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Michael commented May 11
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Michael
New York ·
May 11
Is there a way to read just the text if this article. I find the visuals will be helpful but only after I've read it once
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Steve commented May 11In reply thread
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Steve
New York ·
May 11
@JAS
I have been a physician acupuncturist for 40 years. For many of those years I'd argue with insurance companies over paying for acupuncture. They'd say they would pay for it when there were high level of studies proving its efficacy. I'd say that's fine and as they were using that as criteria for payment I assumed they'd stop paying for things like epidural steroid injections for back pain as there were no such studies supporting them.
The insurance companies' response was that was what they'd always paid for.
So much for science.
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Robert commented May 11
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Robert
Sunnyvale, CA ·
May 11
Thank you for the very interesting article. I wonder if in the future it would be possible to publish text-only versions of such articles to enable reading the content without having to constantly scroll to reach the next couple of sentences. Helpful graphics could be interspersed between paragraphs, rather than dominating (and interfering with) the content.
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M. T. commented May 11
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M. T.
Richmond, VA ·
May 11
Cool graphics but slow clap for "Western medicine" finally catching up to what ancient healing modalities have been practicing for millennia. Of course new systems exist and of course they're interconnected! I'm reminded of the simple brilliance of Charles and Ray Eames's 1970s documentary "The Powers of Ten." How the microscopic layers of our bodies are just as infinite and limitless as the macroscopic cosmos, and how similar.
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Tom 190 commented May 11In reply thread
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Tom 190
Hometown ·
May 11
@braindoctor-- As George Orwell observed in his 1946 essay "Politics and the English Language," we live in a time when "all issues are political issues."
True then, and true now.
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JPBaum commented May 11
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JPBaum
Az ·
May 11
Twenty years ago, I was severely burned in a fire, and the doctors gave me only an 8% chance of survival. As part of my daily recovery process, I began to meditate on the area beneath my skin, specifically the space outside of my blood vessels and above my muscle layers. I started referring to this area as my "chi" and would visualize moving it around my body, essentially asking it to facilitate the healing of my skin. While I understand the limitations of this approach from a strictly scientific perspective, I am quite certain that it had a positive influence on my recovery journey.
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Robert E. Malchman commented May 11In reply thread
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Robert E. Malchman
Brooklyn, N.Y. ·
May 11
@braindoctor Yeah, because science is *never* political. Who would ever deny science or protest vaccines on political grounds? What depraved politician would ever try to restrict interstate delivery an abortion drug with a quarter century of proven safety and effectiveness solely to achieve a political goal of forcing women to give birth? I can't even imagine any rational, decent person doing that, and there can't be an American government run by such irrational, deplorable people who would commit such foul acts. Right?
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Cathy commented May 11
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Cathy
Chicagoland ·
May 11
I think the presentation style helped me read it more quickly! And I was amazed, because as someone with a lot of arthritis, I've always imagined it/something somehow "travels" from one joint to another. (Not that this proves it of course.) When I've mentioned this to my orthopedic surgeons, they have looked at me like I was an alien.
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Lucy commented May 11
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Lucy
Canada ·
May 11
I love the graphic representation of this information, as a teacher I know the value of presenting information in a visual format. The comments show there are people who prefer the text without the visuals. Perhaps in the future, NYT can offer a "text-only" option to these amazing graphics-enhanced news stories. Thanks for all your hard work, this story has fascinating medical implications.
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SMB commented May 11
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SMB
Arlington VA ·
May 11
I don't quite see how this is new or news. I have veterinary medical degree from the 90's and work in research. The interstitium has always been known in western medicine. It is not some sort of mysterious or neglected space - off course "stuff" flows in and out of it. The other system we should be discussing is the body's electrical current, which also factors into acupuncture, disease and well being.
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Joanne Corey commented May 11
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Joanne Corey
Vestal NY ·
May 11
I'm hoping that this will result in more study of connective tissue disorders, such as Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. As it stands now, because connective tissue/interstitum does not have specialists trained in diagnosing and treating related disorders, people spend decades - or even lifetimes - being dismissed by doctors who don't understand that defects in connective tissue are the root of their symptoms affecting multiple body parts and systems.
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C commented May 11
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C
Massachusetts ·
May 11
The illustrations are fantastic. Beautifully done and practical as they visualize content of the article. Bravo!
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Jimmm commented May 11
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Jimmm
France ·
May 11
Fascinating article. Unlike some commenting here, I found the presentation beautiful and effective. Thank you.
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J Davis commented May 11
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J Davis
Toronto ·
May 11
Why would you call this a discovery if this has been known by the Chinese for 4000 years? Are we still doing this in the year of our Lord 2026?
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Pigdog commented May 11
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Pigdog
The Pen ·
May 11
It research like this that provides hope that human ingenuity may supersede the baser instincts of our species, presently in ascendance.
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Reece commented May 11In reply thread
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Reece
Boston, MA ·
May 11
@Nancy Your story might be very real to you, but it doesn’t reflect how medical science works.
If a treatment really works, we should be able to see it working on large groups of people. We do trials to investigate how much something works. We don’t tell people if they’re getting a real treatment or a placebo to make sure the patients aren’t influencing their results by knowing about the treatment. We don’t tell the physicians either, so they don’t bias the numbers. That’s a double blind trial.
Stuff that really works shows an effect in that situation. Stuff that is a placebo doesn’t show an effect. It’s a great system.
Placebo doesn’t mean “it’s nothing” or “it’s all in your head.” Placebo effects are anything, any real thing, that are not specifically the treatment. Time with a doctor causes a real placebo effect. Motivation to get better is a real placebo effect. Time is a placebo effect. They’re all real, they all have benefit in some situations, but they are not (usually) the thing being tested.
Acupuncture has been tested against placebo in some well designed clinical trials, but the results are negative against placebo. The better the trial design, the more negative the result. That’s a sign that a treatment isn’t doing anything specific.
I’m not saying you didn’t get better after your acupuncture. I’m saying that we have good evidence that the benefit you experienced was from something other than the needles in meridian points.
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Anoop commented May 11In reply thread
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Anoop
Ny ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
Spot on! What we need is an article on critical thinking for journalists
Remember Homeopaths tell their treatment works via quantum mechanics.
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Boog commented May 11In reply thread
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Boog
Moab ·
May 11
@Kevin Fear of anything that challenges current belief systems is a trait in so many people. Leading them to deride without proof the perceived challenge. Thank goodness scientists, through rigorous testing methods, are not daunted but follow where the facts lead them.
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V. R. commented May 11In reply thread
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V. R.
New York ·
May 11
@Tony Exactly, I had 10 sessions of Rolfing and this treatment for pain changed a lot of things in my body. Rolfing is all about the fascia.
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EK commented May 11
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EK
Cleveland.OH ·
May 11
Yes. Let's finally get Western medicine believing in Eastern medicine. In my world, where several people have had several issues that Western medicine (and western trained doctors) have failed to solve, acupuncture has filled in those gaps. When doctors have thrown their hands up in the air and said, gosh, I don't know how to help you, acupuncturists have come forward and said, let's start here. In my personal experience, acupuncture is excellent at calming inflammation, and looking at the whole body-- treating the whole body as a system, rather than as pieces. And with this new discovery, it's so clear why that has been an effective approach, when Western medicine has failed. I feel so optimistic about this finding-- it's about time Western medicine finally expands their brains just a little bit.
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Anne commented May 11
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Anne
CT ·
May 11
Many people have been helped by acupuncture. It's nice to see Western medicine catching up.
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Jean Michelle commented May 11In reply thread
Jean Michelle
Jean Michelle
Wisconsin ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills
Agreed. Have you ever seen the NYTimes reviews of famous artist's paintings? It is the same format and it has literally opened up the world of fine arts to me (and I am assuming, to many). Good work NYTimes for these types of pieces.
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globe commented May 11
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globe
New York ·
May 11
I hope all the people who are so gung ho about tattoos start to understand that the inks and dyes migrate within to other lymphatic bodily systems. Not a holistic health habit though effects of the toxins may take some time to accumulate.
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SD commented May 11In reply thread
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SD
Earth ·
May 11
@Michael If you're using Chrome, choose Reading Mode from the settings. A side pane will open that just shows the text of the article.
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Bruce Freifeld commented May 11In reply thread
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Bruce Freifeld
Bronx, NY ·
May 11
@Alison Howard Right. And let's validate the questionable 'therapies' with more testimonials about how great such and such works. Indeed mostly placebo effect. Evidence based practice is necessary to validate any treatment modality. Sadly most of these so called therapies haven't.
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US_Prole commented May 11
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US_Prole
Pacific Northwest ·
May 11
An intriguing article - and truly wonderful illustrations & visualizations by Jėrôme Berthier. The mention at the end about parallels in botany made me think of recent work exploring the mycelial networks among fungi and trees.
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B. Honest commented May 11In reply thread
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B. Honest
Puyallup WA ·
May 11
@David
Sliding cartoons with too much scrolling needed kills a lot of stories I would have otherwise read, this one was important enough info I stuck through it but my hand hurts from having to scroll that much just for sentences.
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Gus commented May 11In reply thread
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Gus
Virginia ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen The baseline for a drugs efficacy in clinical trials is does it help 50% or more of patients, for some it can be even lower. Acupuncture may not work for everyone either, but there are some it definitely has helped.
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Concerned Citizen commented May 11In reply thread
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Concerned Citizen
america ·
May 11
@Data Analyst This is better phrased than any follow up I could have offered. Acupuncture is not born out in the literature. Sham acupuncture works as well as "real acupuncture" and evidence of efficacy vanishes the larger the sample size and more rigerous the study.
Many people offered an anecdotal reply here. And anecdotes are not evidence. The plural of anecdote is not evidence either. I'm happy that acupuncture made you feel better and that you think it's a valuable part of your routine. It is also pseodoscience that keeps trying to justify itself by moving the goalpost on falsifiability. Two things can simultaneously be true.
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Mark commented May 11
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Mark
idaho ·
May 11
Regarding the presentation format for this article, as with so many articles, opinions, essays, etc., IMHO, the first question (perhaps the second or somewhere thereabouts) is for the author(s) and editors to identify the target audience. That determines What is to be presented, and Why and How it is to be presented. In all of my writing, I ask myself What would I like readers to Do as a result of reading it? So as to readers' frustrations with the article's format, perhaps NYT could offer a hot-link to a text only version. In keeping with the article, it would serve as another circulation system. And, yes, although the comment is serious, the pun is intended.
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Steve commented May 11
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Steve
Sylmar, California ·
May 11
A very insightful article. The West is finally acknowledging a scientific basis for some Eastern treatments used for centuries.
Bringing the two philosophies together can only result in more positive treatmets and their outcomes for patients.
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D. L. commented May 11
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D. L.
Ann Arbor, Michigan ·
May 11
Bravo! What a wonderful mix of script and illustration in a two dimensional space!!
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Eric Olson commented May 11In reply thread
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Eric Olson
Middlebury, CT ·
May 11
@B The myofacial system has been important in my practice as an integrative orthopedic surgeon. After some injurie the facial system "holds the memory" in ways that the muscle tendon unit model does not explain, and after six weeks of healing the pain is still there. Talented myofacial release practitioners and massage therapists can gradually encourage healing and release of tension held in this fascial system. It is not yet taught in most medical schools nor orthopaedic residencies, but should be.
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keb commented May 11
k
keb
Az ·
May 11
Several months ago, I went to my Western trained PCP with severe hip pain. I had resigned myself to undergoing a hip replacement, but the doctor said no said no, and referred me to a massage therapist that specializes in manipulating the fascia.
Within seconds of placing her hands on my hip, the massage therapist said, “you’ve had abdominal surgery.” She could feel the fascia being pulled from the scar. She manipulated my fascia, and my pain was gone after the first treatment. I still go to her periodically for a tuneup. It made a believer out of me.
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Dao commented May 11
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Dao
Brooklyn ·
May 11
Trying to understand and judge Acupuncture from a western perspective is like trying to see in a darkened room with dark sunglasses on.
Can someone learn a completely new language by using their own language as a guide? Not really.
Just because it doesn’t fit your paradigm doesn’t mean it’s a sham.
Classical Chinese medicine predates “TCM” a still effective traditional Chinese Medicine interpretation brought about by Mao in China. The study of acupuncture is empirical, metaphorical and much more vast and complex than western medicine can even imagine. It can even incorporate different schools of practice within its own framework. I took courses in western medicine and pathology, anatomy and internal anatomy to work as a practitioner in a contemporary setting, as well as many courses in eastern medicine and philosophy that make up the basis of Classical Chinese medicine. We also learned the locations of more than 365 acupuncture points in the body. They exist in the spaces between bones, tendons, organs and blood vessels, so they have been mapped very carefully. I found it Vast and very humbling. Three years was really only an tiny introduction to thousands of years of knowledge!
Also- Ítalo Calvino wrote a beautiful short story called “Blood, Sea” which is a whimsical analysis of our evolution from sea creatures whose cells directly are in contact with saltwater to having an interior circulatory system to keep our cells hydrated and nourished.
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been there commented May 11
b
been there
California ·
May 11
My medical school class learned about the interstitial spaces in 1982. We also learned about the lymphatics. I found this article unconvincing. So fluid moves from capillaries to interstitial spaces especially during states of capillary leak, and the low pressure lymphatic system picks it up and brings it back to the intravascular space. The interstitial spaces are always wet, so there is always some fluid in these spaces.
How is the process reported here new and different, in terms of western medicine?
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Smarmy commented May 11
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Smarmy
Miami, Fl ·
May 11
I'm glad we're finally beginning to understand, in a scientific sense, the efficacy of the ancient practices.
I hope this leads to further breakthroughs and understanding, and respect, of how our bodies function.
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Ruan commented May 11
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Ruan
Brooklyn, NY ·
May 11
Thank you for this brilliantly produced story: connecting the threads of recent Western research with the ancient systems of Chinese medicine! The graphics, clear and concise descriptions and far reaching connections between Western science and Chinese medicine are revelatory. Those of us who have been treated with acupuncture for years appreciate the wider audience this groundbreaking NYT story gives an under appreciated traditional practice.
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Susan F commented May 11In reply thread
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Susan F
Western Mass ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen Acupuncture worked for me on pain that was causing me to take too much ibuprofen (Advil), it was starting to affect my kidneys. I was able to go off ibuprofen altogether and see my kidney results improve.
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Blue Dot commented May 11
Blue Dot
Blue Dot
Blue Planet ·
May 11
WOW!
And unlike some commentators, I found the illustrations illuminating and beautifully rendered!
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Mary commented May 11
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Mary
Hartford Ct ·
May 11
I would have preferred the text all together and the cute but unnecessary graphics limited to the intro. They add nothing to the understanding of the information, and break the text up into tiny bites making one’s concentration jump all over. I get it, “digital media” and all that, but I find this type of presentation uninteresting and usually skip them, same for the mini ones with photos and arrows underneath. They promise interesting information, but deliver only paltry bites of the topic
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GrimW commented May 11
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GrimW
CA ·
May 11
Much ado about almost nothing? The notion that fluids move through this space rapidly enough to explain the claimed immediate effects of acupuncture is silly. Acupuncture fails basic requirements for objective measurement and repeatability. It doesn't work by nerve action, lymphatic movement or circulatory action, hence the effort to tie it to another system. A more reasonable conclusion is that it is mostly placebo, just like chiropractic.
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GFE commented May 11
GFE
GFE
New York ·
May 11
After reading complaints about the graphical presentation of this article, I have to respond.
I've found this sort of presentation annoying in the past, but in this instance the graphics were extremely helpful in clarifying the concepts presented in the text.
To those taking umbrage at, as they put it, being treated like "children who need picture books," I'd answer that it's an age-old truism that if you can't explain a concept clearly to a child, your own grasp of the concept might be lacking.
Additionally, as others have observed, there's wisdom in the ancient Chinese dictum: "One showing is worth a thousand words."
It might be that those who say they find it hard to read are being impaired by focusing on their annoyance instead of -- to use a phrase that suits the subject -- going with the flow.
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MAT commented May 11
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MAT
Portland, OR ·
May 11
in medical school we were taught that all kinds of molecules incessantly moved back and forth between cells and interstitial fluid/space. so a molecule can exit cell A, passing into the interstitium, and that same molecule can then enter cell B. I’m therefore wondering: “why is this so surprising?”
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Pat commented May 11
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Pat
Boston ·
May 11
This is why American science needs to be financially supported not gutted.
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Lyn commented May 11
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Lyn
Boston ·
May 11
As someone with a connective tissue disorder that is so misunderstood/ignored by mainstream medicine, I hope this research continues. Those of us suffering from Ehlers-Danlos syndrome understand first-hand how connected our bodies are and I for one hate how Western Medicine seems to chop us up in to different specialities without offering holistic care. We are not a sum of parts, it all works together.
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Donna Sink commented May 11In reply thread
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Donna Sink
Indiana ·
May 11
@Sidewalk50 Please remember that people digest information differently. For me, visual information is immediately and deeply understandable; the same information given only via text takes much longer for me to absorb. I loved this presentation.
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Alphonso Bedoya commented May 11In reply thread
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Alphonso Bedoya
Meso-Connecticut ·
May 11
@C
“Medical textbooks are not ‘for children’ and yet they explicate concepts with imagery.”
But medical textbooks do not superimpose moving text onto moving graphics. One can have one separate from the other and still get the point across. In fact, many articles on this NY Times website do exactly that… to no detriment to communication.
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JoJo commented May 11
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JoJo
California ·
May 11
This article alone is worth the price of subscription. What a well written, well illustrated, and educational article.
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Al commented May 11
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Al
WA ·
May 11
How is this different than the concept of "third spacing" that I learned about in medical school in 1970? We learned that "body water" traveled freely through interstitial spaces, that fluid was not trapped anywhere but could thus circulate among all the tissues of the body.
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Rick commented May 11
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Rick
Boston ·
May 11
Maybe this does suggest support for “traditional medicine.” However, just because something has been around for a long time doesn’t necessarily make it legit. Astrology has been around a very long time and is still popular. But as far as I know, no good studies have ever shown any correlation with birth date and time and any personality traits or life events.
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DQuixote commented May 11
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DQuixote
LaMancha ·
May 11
I’m a Doc, so let’s be clear here. Any of us who have given injections, especially sub-Q injections like local anesthetics, Botox or steroids know full well that they tend to migrate across tissue species and so-called barriers.
I do not consider this a new discovery, just a mutated read on what WE know already.
Caveat emptor and GIGO.
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Cat Lady commented May 11In reply thread
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Cat Lady
Midwest ·
May 11
@Alison Howard
Thanks for mentioning these other systems western medicine doesn’t acknowledge. I’ve had cranial sacral treatments in the past for tight muscles and fascia and in the hands of a talented practitioner it can be the therapy those of us chained to a desk desperately need.
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B commented May 11
B
B
D ·
May 11
The late John F Barnes, founder of MFR (myofascial release) method of hands-on/massage called this interstitial substance the “ground substance”.
Massage therapist and other body workers have known about this connection for a long time.
As a teacher of massage therapy, I talk often to my students about how, if modern western medicine, would acknowledge the “ground substance“
how it would change the way humans look at the body. And how anatomy books would have to be rewritten from that point on.
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RH commented May 11In reply thread
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RH
Florida ·
May 11
@Deborah This absolutely happens. My husband got Lyme Disease. 1 course oral antibiotics. He still a had a ton of pain. Did a month of IV antibiotics. That was really rough. Still in pain. As a last ditch effort, knowing he didn't want and couldn't have, more antibiotics, he tried acupuncture. The pain disappeared.
We assume the antibiotics killed the active infection but the acupuncture helpedl his body heal from the residual damage.
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María commented May 11
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María
WY ·
May 11
This has been known for more than 100 years...in "Western" medicine. The interstitium and how it is structured and functions is something we teach in veterinary schools, here are in most other countries. Perhaps if medical schools actually taught histology (microscopic anatomy), the researchers would not think of themselves as discoverers but simply as documenting the movement of ink through a known tissue.
As someone else commented, interesting about the meridians but, please, don't make this out to be a new discovery. Recommend the authors read any veterinary or human histology book, they'll find them illuminating.
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jtm commented May 11In reply thread
j
jtm
texas ·
May 11
@Cathy Thank you for creating this comment before I had a chance to do so.
This was a fascinating article but the the cartoons scrolling by in the background added nothing but disctraction.
Apparently, the NY Times believes its readers no longer have the attention span required to read articles created from text and interspersed with a few illustrations.
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Rhoda Hough commented May 11
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Rhoda Hough
Ventura, CA ·
May 11
It would be great to be amped to get an easy-to-read non-graphic version of this story. The navigation is a bit annoying.
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adrienne goering commented May 11
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adrienne goering
flint michigan ·
May 11
i seem to be in the minority - so i’m popping in the comments to say i loved the graphics. they definitely served the purpose of helping me visualize the content. thanks!
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Jen J. commented May 11
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Jen J.
Texas ·
May 11
Beautifully designed and written article. The interactivity itself is a work of art, and I'll remember this article's purpose, content, and message far longer because of its multimodality. Thank you for this presentation!
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Lainie commented May 11
Lainie
Lainie
Southwest ·
May 11
First: When I try to save this article, I'm repeatedly asked to log in. When I go back to the article, somehow the login hasn't held. Fix this please?
I love this article and am amazed and delighted that these links are now evident and recognized. Mixed feelings on the graphics; they're very cool, but somewhat distracting/slowing (especially when you have to keep re-logging in). I like the idea of including a more traditional text option. Anyway. Meridians, chakras, and other energetic modalities didn't come from nowhere and they're not made up; they have ancient stories and wisdom behind them. It's about time Western medicine recognized that healing is multilayered and we haven't seen everything yet.
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Dianakmax commented May 11In reply thread
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Dianakmax
Austin ·
May 11
@CB Absolutely! I am a nurse of over thirty years and kept thinking how wonderful visuals such as this could be utilized more in teaching! If someone wants a deep dive into the information I have no doubt a quick search would suffice.
I love when the Times provides articles with visuals!
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Amazing ! commented May 11
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Amazing !
FL ·
May 11
This is incredible information come to light for western medicine & wellness. The West has been behind in terms of cause and prevention of disease & a bit linear and one dimensional in terms of treatments . Thank you for this article ! Excited to see what this discovery leads to
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Tim commented May 11In reply thread
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Tim
Michigan, US ·
May 11
@C
But medical textbooks don't strain themselves to entertain the reader, as this article does.
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Boyd Crow commented May 11
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Boyd Crow
Los Osos, CA ·
May 11
A good article but I'm getting carpal tunnel syndrome scrolling through something can be done with text and static illustrations. I'm a "speed reader" and I've just sat through a grammar school "slide show".
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Tony commented May 11
Tony
Tony
Dallas, TX ·
May 11
This is an extraordinary article, revelatory, incisive and extremely valuable. It is also a validation of some of the basic ideas behind Chinese Medicine and acupuncture. Many years ago, a close family member had near debilitating pain after numerous abdominal surgeries, and the pain could not be managed well with medications/opiates. We consulted a Naturopathic physician who recommended acupuncture which worked extraordinarily well and allowed the patient to eliminate the use of pain medication entirely. Did we understand exactly how it worked. We did not. But maybe soon we will.
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Emme commented May 11
E
Emme
Colorado ·
May 11
This is how Continuous Glucose Monitors work. A small sensor is inserted just enough to reach the interstitial fluid. CGMs don’t measure glucose directly from blood, but from interstitial fluid. Because glucose moves from blood vessels into this fluid, CGMs can closely track blood sugar levels with a slight delay.
Replies 2
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kirk commented May 11
k
kirk
montana ·
May 11
This just shows the importance of keeping an open, inquisitive mind and following a line of inquiry that is not obvious.
Just more proof that the republican destruction of our basic research institutions as well as our international intellectual pursuits is not only ignorant but also stupid.
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MS commented May 11In reply thread
MS
MS
CA ·
May 11
@JAS It's more subtle than that. I'm a physician-scientist whose paternal ancestors were TCM practitioners and who spent time in China learning about TCM.
I think the methodology of Western medicine and science are superb. TCM does not isolate for example the exact molecules active in a herb. Mere observations can lead people down the wrong path, e.g. the placebo effect. However, Western med can learn and test the observations from Chinese med.
In practice, Chinese clinicians use both. My father would never recommend TCM for acute infections or for serious, acute orthopedic injuries for instance. He knew they wouldn't act fast enough or be effective in some situations. When my mom was pregnant, he found the best European-trained OB/GYN in the area to take care of her. In China, the clinics I visited in the early 2000s used both TCM and Western medicine. There was no hard dividing line. The Specialists on both sides referred to each other.
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Sam commented May 11
S
Sam
Ithaca, NY ·
May 11
This whole 'discovery' seems to be premised on a straw man argument that all the interstitial spaces in the human body were thought to be sealed off from each other. Did anyone seriously believe this? I'm ready to believe that many medical specialties have overlooked the importance of movement through (or restriction of movement through) interstitial tissue and progress could be made by paying more attention to it, but the thesis of this article goes way beyond that and seem a bit over sold to me.
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Dr. N commented May 11
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Dr. N
New York ·
May 11
Science and medicine and in fact every high school biology student has known about the "interstitium" for a long time; it is called the extracellular space
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Matt commented May 11
M
Matt
Colo ·
May 11
Fascinating. I hope these scientists figure out some of the chronic diseases, like autoimmune diseases. I also hope the NYT keeps reporting on different science achievements and how they might impact everyone. Science has been battered lately and we can’t loose it.
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Vicki Jenssen commented May 11
V
Vicki Jenssen
Cape Breton Island ·
May 11
Vitamin C is the collagen builder, it is required for healthy bone maintainance and now we discover that the interstitium is made of collagen. To those nay-sayers that Vitamin C/ascorbic acid is only needed in a minimal way in primates (humans), think again. The government recommendations are a minimum, only enough to keep our teeth from falling out. Keep taking it!
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H. Clark commented May 11
H
H. Clark
Long Island, NY ·
May 11
This is beyond fascinating, and presented in a brilliant fashion by Times journalists, editors and graphic artists. It confirms that while mainframe computers and space stations may be intriguing, the most complicated and astounding entity on the planet is the human body. While we know so much about it, there are still new discoveries to be uncovered. THe interstitium is just one among them. Kudos to the intelligent minds who uncovered these revelations; it’s truly astounding!
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gk commented May 11
g
gk
Los Angeles ·
May 11
WOW.
(only 1 small point - I LOVE the graphics, but it would be great to get this as a straight text document)
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Tiffany Chow commented May 11
T
Tiffany Chow
La Jolla ·
May 11
Thank you for the animated illustrations! They clarify the different compartments discussed and keep the discussion human
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Michael Gordon commented May 11
M
Michael Gordon
US of T ·
May 11
Thank you for this wonderful article and particularly for the marvelous accompanying illustrations
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TKarras commented May 11
T
TKarras
Brooklyn, NY ·
May 11
Wow, not only is this incredibly reported but the visuals enhanced the understanding and experience of watching/reading this. We need a new word for this type of article, just like we have a new circulatory system on the scene. Thank you!
Replies 1
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Christopher Elstner commented May 11
C
Christopher Elstner
Santa Barbara ·
May 11
I’m a physician and have spent many hours studying tissues. This new view of the greater view of the interstitium as not just unique to each area of tissue, but as a dynamic system that integrates all interstitial makes total sense. It enhances one’s view of the incredibly complex body immensely similar to our new understanding of how trees and plants talk to each other through their roots. This new view makes total sense and its relationship to chi is unmistakeable. Now if we could only get ourselves to look at our minds like we do tissues. In the west we do not simply take time to do a little meditation and just look at our minds and how they operate even on a banal daily schedule. If we do we will open up incredible avenues of how minds and bodies connect and operate and give us more understanding of who we are.
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ChrisMas commented May 11
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ChrisMas
Sedona ·
May 11
This interesting but western-based article has parallels to Columbus “discovering” North America. Something that was, 1) already there, and 2) which others already knew about.
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NJH commented May 11
N
NJH
California ·
May 11
I'm happy to see western medicine is finally catching up to something known for centuries. I hope the medical field will put this information to good use and hopefully, insurance companies will acknowledge and cover 'alternative' medicine, aka: acupuncture.
Replies 1
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Steve Schild commented May 11
S
Steve Schild
Winona, Minnesota ·
May 11
This is a great reminder that we should always remain humble about what we (think we) know and always be willing to acknowledge how much we don't know.
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Adrianamo819 commented May 11
A
Adrianamo819
Los Angeles, CA ·
May 11
It would be interesting to see how this interstitial system relates to connective tissue disorders, such as Ehlers Danlos, lipedema, HSD, etc. They are already under-studied, but this opens up new possibilities.
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Werdna commented May 11
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Werdna
Vancouver ·
May 11
We in the West have a massively inflated idea of our understanding of life force, and living systems. We have a medical system convinced that it is the only valid way of understanding the body and its systemic nature...In the East they have another much older understanding of how living systems work and we denigrate this knowledge because it does to adhere to the principles of Western Medicine. We fall captive to the idea that our way of thinking is superior to that of others until we are presented with evidence that cannot be hammered into the existing model. This is where we are now...on the brink of a complete new understanding of the human body. Fascia , long assumed to be useless tissue rather than the soft scaffolding of our bodies, is finally being recognized as an indispensable part of the system and this new information just adds to the body of proof that our way of thinking about health, and the use of chemical interventions like drugs with massive "side effects" is based on a woefully incomplete understanding. This can only be good news!
Replies 3
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Myma commented May 11
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Myma
NC ·
May 11
Hardly new, and hardly newsworthy. I might be a chemist not a biologist, but the interstitial fluid and its importance has been known for a very long while. People who work on parenteral delivery of medicine via a needles have been studying this for a very long time. Wikipedia has had page since 2005.
I think this is another case of some clever professor renaming something cleverly to get clever press.
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Mark Kropf commented May 11
M
Mark Kropf
Long Island ·
May 11
The idea is important, but it should also be clear to most anybody.
While it is not thought out, many agents are placed into the skin to get some action beyond a tattoo.
People dose agents such as Insulin subcutaneously. I used that route to give many agents in my practice. People can believe that a hormone of Insulin's size merely gets into a lymphatic or a blood vessel, but it has to get to them first. The same thing is true for subcutaneous Heparin or more.
Doctors have known for a long time that immune cells move through the interstitium as antigen binding cells and as T cells. Ninety percent of the T-Cells in the body are in the skin. Why would they be there if they do not move through it and surveil within it?
A Nature article from back in 2018: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-23062-6
The interstitium was certainly considered to be an active avenue of traffic by me back in my Medical School days in the 1970s. It has been ignored, but we deal with the interstitium a good deal in Medicine and mostly otherwise ignored it.
Is it an organ? I doubt that, but it is important. Much as a roadway is not a house, a roadway remains important. Interstitial function is like a roadway. It is a communication network. Perhaps you can define it as an organ, but inasmuch as it is the general connection, I believe the roadway is a much better metaphor for its function!
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Kate commented May 11
K
Kate
Canada ·
May 11
Much of our science (and economic models too) have an intrinsic bias toward externalizing, simplifying and separating things that are, in fact, fundamentally connected. I am always pleased when research emerges with findings that shine a light on that bias. For me personally, this makes sense intuitively, and jibes with much of my experience in managing inflammation and chronic connective tissue pain after a couple of serious injuries.
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Ξυνόπυρος commented May 11
Ξ
Ξυνόπυρος
Σαν Φρανσίσκο ·
May 11
Wonderful. This is why the Times is so important. Unless one is a scientist reading this in a medical journal, this would remain mostly hidden from the rest of the population. And it is absolutely astonishing. The presentation is fantastic.
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L commented May 11
L
L
Ct. ·
May 11
Interesting article about this so-called new science! Great that the tools of discovery "prove" the science. But the article sure gives short shrift to osteopathy's 150-year-old understanding of just about everything in the article -- and osteopathy's profound clinical applications of that understanding. Osteopathy's knowledge comes from systematic cadaveric dissection — osteopaths have been hands-on in anatomy labs, observing fascial continuity and the relationships between tissues directly;
palpatory clinical experience — generations of practitioners developing and refining a tactile understanding of how tension, fluid, and restriction transmit through the body's connective tissue; a coherent theoretical framework built on structured anatomical and physiological hypothesis derived from observation
That's the same epistemological foundation as much of conventional medicine — observation and reproducible findings. If anything, the interstitium story is a reminder that the tools of mainstream science can lag behind what skilled human observation has already detected.
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Artie commented May 11
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Artie
Honolulu ·
May 11
Yes, my reaction is also,"duh." The meridian system in traditional Chinese medicine is widely known, but ignored by arrogant Western medicine.
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Imaikalani commented May 11
I
Imaikalani
Hawaii ·
May 11
Taiwan’s medical system has a two track system that I always thought was brilliant. Taiwan’s socialized medical system which is affordable, and where all citizens are covered, has a two track system, Western and Chinese medicine—both equally covered by the system. Have a bad cold that won’t go away? Go see your western trained doctor for your packet of pills. Have lingering carpal tunnel syndrome? Head to your traditional Chinese for long term treatment for a mix of accupuncture and a hot press of a paste of Chinese medicinal herbs. Taiwan knows what’s up!
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Eric commented May 11
E
Eric
California ·
May 11
There is nothing new about the interstitium. It has been known about for a very long time and taught to every doctor and biomedical researcher. How else would anything get from the bulk of the tissue to the circulatory and lymphatic systems if interstitial transport didn't occur? And people have been studying cancer cells migrating through the interstitial space for years. The only thing that is particularly novel here is that researchers are increasingly realizing just how quickly and far stuff can travel through the interstitial space and how important it can be for health. This is seen by many as particularly important in the central nervous system, where it is called the glymphatic system.
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suzanne northcott commented May 11
s
suzanne northcott
Langley, BC, Canada ·
May 11
Thank you. Fascinating article made infinitely more vivid through Jerome Berthier's inspired representation.
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Trailwalker commented May 11
T
Trailwalker
USA ·
May 11
Excellent article! Let's hope the merging of East and West knowledge continues. However, I shake my head in quiet, utter annoyance at the comic-book style presentation. (I'm especially grateful to the commenter who described how to avoid the unhelpful scrolling required, e.g., through one's browser, such as the address-box 'reader view' icon in Firefox). I request the NYT place a 'reader view' button on these types of articles to help those who have left their comic book years behind.
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Irene K commented May 11
I
Irene K
NYC ·
May 11
I hope that based on this, and further research, Medicare will expand their coverage of acupuncture. That could potentially help thousands of people -- and ultimately save money if after acupuncure treatment, those helped no longer need expensive, invasive treatments.
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Esly Caldwell commented May 11
E
Esly Caldwell
Cincinnati, OH ·
May 11
This is a great article and visual!
I have been an acupuncturist for 17 years and the "interstitium" is a great way to conceptualize Qi and meridians.
I'm thrilled that the NYT is starting to publish more open minded and well researched work on acupuncture.
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Adam commented May 11
A
Adam
VA ·
May 11
Interesting piece! As a practitioner of tai chi, I didn’t know what chi was physically. As a scientist, I wish the NY Times and other news sources would provide the full citations for published research.
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bamhoward commented May 11In reply thread
b
bamhoward
Scotland ·
May 11
@Ann Hocevar It would be nice if we were given an option to read the piece with or without the animation, which I find unhelpful in most cases. This one was nearly all blank for me due to low bandwidth.
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Surprise me commented May 11
S
Surprise me
Stockholm ·
May 11
Good on them. What my chiropractor Dr Lasnesky has always understood and treated his patients by and within. First, Do no harm…. so glad the medical establishment can dig it now.
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CarolinaJoe commented May 11In reply thread
C
CarolinaJoe
NC ·
May 11
@SharBrem
Because scientists, however open minded, approach any problem with a dose of skepticism.
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N.G. Krishnan commented May 11
N
N.G. Krishnan
Bangalore ·
May 11
This fascinating report highlights the "fragility" of our previous anatomical certainties.
We have spent centuries cataloging the body as a collection of parts, yet we have missed the very network that connects them.
In Ayurveda, health is defined by the free flow of Rasa (plasma/fluid) through micro-channels; any stagnation leads to imbalance.
By identifying the interstitium, modern science is effectively translating ancient wisdom into the language of collagen and fluid dynamics.
It is a necessary step toward an integrative medicine that respects both the "lightning speed" of technological progress and the deep, historical roots of human biology
Recommend 25
DavidG commented May 11
D
DavidG
MD ·
May 11
I went to medical school in the US in the 1970s. The concept of interstitial spaces and interstitial fluid as a pathway for migration of fluids and cells was known and taught back then. It was assumed that the interstitial pathway was too slow and inefficient compared to the lymphatic and circulatory systems to have any more than a localized effect on health and disease.
While the concept is not new, the potential implications may be much greater than previously conceived. Time and a good deal more research will tell.
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Heidi commented May 11
H
Heidi
California ·
May 11
I had a Chinese acupuncture doctor for 25 years. She got me through menopause without any symptoms. She healed my frozen shoulder. After 3 weeks I had full range of motion again. When I broke my right ribcage with a punctured lung, she boosted up my healing and my western doctor asked for her phone number. There was so much more she did for me. I miss her dearly.
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patton commented May 11In reply thread
p
patton
Fort Collins CO ·
May 11
@Sarah. I am stunned by your accusation of hubris. The article connects the two traditions rather than denigrating one of them as has been done so much in the past. Your final comments about interconnectedness echo what is in the article and in many recent scientific discussions. Let's be pleased with new conciliations rather than be quick to continue old hostilities.
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Blue State commented May 11In reply thread
B
Blue State
I vote ·
May 11
@New Eyes
Brennan’s book is fascinating! Thank you for mentioning it.
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Pluto commented May 11
P
Pluto
NJ ·
May 11
Thnk you for this article. The big question that pops into mind is: So what else science does not know?
Also, can we be humble enough to acknowledge that we don’t know everything and actually pursue the other medicines with genuine curiosity rather than active contempt?
We might learn more and sooner and wouldn’t have to wait 400 years to rediscover what the ancients knew for 4000!
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Jenny Justice commented May 11
J
Jenny Justice
Durham, NC ·
May 11
Wonderful reporting, thank you. If you wish to be even more amazed, read up on the Hindu/Sufi philosophy of non-dual Kashmir Shavism that developed in India in the early middle ages - it describes this "newly discovered" circulatory system beautifully, and in great detail. Amazing.
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E commented May 11In reply thread
E
E
Los Angeles ·
May 11
@Sarah Absolutely agree. Well said.
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espe commented May 11
e
espe
New York ·
May 11
I wish so much that there was a link directly to a readable essay and not the mandatory sequence of flashy image transitions...
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Allyn commented May 11
A
Allyn
NY to CRica ·
May 11
Western Medical Industrial Complex routinely dismisses or ignores proven forms of healing and intervention from other cultures. Accupuncture. Ayurveda. Chiropractic. Ancient plant Medicine. - and much more. These are NOT "Fads"! They've worked for billions of people over the history of our planet. How can researchers /scientists work from a base assumption that our bodies systems (like ALL living things on planet earth) are NOT interconnected and integrated? Indeed, such integration is what "Life" in all forms is. Scientific proof is a bonus and should be rigorisly pursued. Outright dimissal, disrespect and ignorace of other proven therapies from cultures other than our "Pharma-Yah-Yahs" is counterproductive.
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Greg McVerry commented May 11
G
Greg McVerry
San Francisco ·
May 11
Fantastic article. I am always amazed when an apt analogy makes something super complex more understandable for a slow brain like me. The chicken wire in gel bit? Better than 1,000 words.
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Free Thinker commented May 11
F
Free Thinker
Massachusetts ·
May 11
It's wonderful that Western medicine is catching up to a venerable Asian medical practice, and it's encouraging that Western researchers are finding materialist explanation for how the interstitial system works. But let's remember that acupuncture -- and tai chi and qigong and other Asian energy healing modalities -- are not strictly materialist. There's a spiritual component. Qi (or "chi," as the NY Times article calls it) is vital life-force. The secular-materialist West denies this, but it's the next great step: realizing that the human body is not merely physical, but deeply integrated with mind and spirit as well.
Replies 1
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Randy D commented May 11
R
Randy D
South Korea ·
May 11
I tried acupuncture for the first time in 2006 out of desperation to reduce extreme shoulder pain from a bicycle accident despite my “rationalist” western attitudes. I gained dramatic relief after three treatments. Then it helped me manage extreme pain from repeated kidney stones. Then I moved to Korea where it regularly helps me with pain reduction and has provided my only reduction in tinnitus. I’m still a rational thinker, but my thinking includes appreciating the usefulness of acupuncture for pain reduction but not necessarily full cures. By the way, at a small fraction of the cost of medical care in the U.S.
Replies 1
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Dale commented May 11
D
Dale
MidWest ·
May 11
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
While I'm reminded of the extreme skepticism of having bacteria be a cause of gastric ulcers promoted and proven a few years later, I am not at all convinced from the glitzy illustrations that there is anything more than lymphatic type flows.
Since a great number of acupuncture treatments fail (personal and reports from those who've sought out treatment from that type of practitioners) to all of a sudden jump on the bandwagon of a third system of circulation seems a bit premature.
Does water flow through the grasses in a pasture after a storm? Yes. Is this proof of a new or hidden system of streams and creeks? No, there are far more likely explanations.
Like all of science, independent and rigorous study of a newly reported phenomenon will bring clarity to the subject. The length of time and few researchers pursuing this evaluation tends to be a bit concerning as too the validity rather than a loose association with tattoo dye spreading.
If body fluids did NOT return via the closed vascular system and the lymphatics, we'd all we swollen up like the Pillsbury Dough Boy.
Before we get all excited, let skeptical researchers agree there is something here.
Replies 2
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PNW commented May 11In reply thread
PNW
PNW
PNW ·
May 11
@Michelle
The Chinese made use of the system without figuring out its underlying structure. This research describes a new discovery.
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CB commented May 11
C
CB
NY ·
May 11
Borrowing this on a friend's device, after a strong recommendation to read this. I hope for more follow-up.
Observation: so many of the responders so sharp in their comments. Are we in a culture where we must poke out the eye of someone or virtually of something to feel we are heard?
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Thacher commented May 11In reply thread
T
Thacher
Canton, NY ·
May 11
@Prof Reader You nailed it, Prof Reader. Some of the graphics are not just "more decorative" -- they are pointless. But others of the graphics helped me a great deal. This may be so individualized that the graphics designer on this article will hear a huge variety of reactions regarding which felt "pointless" and which felt "substantive." But I bet there's a lot of overlap! Still, the content of the article shone through. What a world we live in! I loved this so much. (in spite of the scrolling through pointless tree roots, lol).
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no commented May 11In reply thread
n
no
pa ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen acupuncture "works" and you're starting your argument from an incorrect assumption that isn't a fact at all.
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M D commented May 11
M
M D
new orleans ·
May 11
Well done! Great commentary coupled with illuminating illustrations! Thank you.
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PK2NYT commented May 11
P
PK2NYT
Sacramento ·
May 11
Very good article, not only for its informative content but also the graphic depiction of the discovery, that showed how the interstitium network integrates within the known circulatory systems in a human body.
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Jay commented May 11
J
Jay
Los Angeles ·
May 11
This information has been around since the 1980s. Subcutaneous interstitial fluid pressure during external loading
by N. P. Reddy,V. Palmieri, andG. V. Cochran
American Journal of Physiology-Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative PhysiologyVolume 240, Issue 5
1981 May 01
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KS Transplant commented May 11In reply thread
K
KS Transplant
Here And Now ·
May 11
@CB yes! I agree. Not everyone sees or learns the same way. I have been a bodyworker for 30 years, heave studied the fascia and interstitial system. This is one of the simplest examples and useful tool for educating clients.
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B commented May 11In reply thread
B
B
PA ·
May 11
@NG you may be right. But the fact that most major insurance companies pay for treatment leads me to believe it must have some scientific backing.
Replies 2
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Jeanne commented May 11
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Jeanne
NorCal ·
May 11
In recent years I and a group of like-minded retired women have been gathering each week for an hour-long session of the ancient practice of QiGong. All have noticed positive changes in health from this gentle practice which focuses on the movement of Qi within and throughout our bodies.
This article and graphic illustration of the movement of fluids through the interstices will enhance my knowledge and QiGong practice.
Thank you.
Peace. Love. Compassion
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Nic Fulton commented May 11In reply thread
N
Nic Fulton
Sydney ·
May 11
@NYC xrays pass through the body and are detected on the other side. A contrast agent blocks the xrays to increase the details / contrast of some target. Flourescence is a physical process where a chemical absorbs a photon in a certain energy range and the emits a photon at a lower energy. The most common we see in everyday are materials we call flourescent than absorb UV light and emit in the visible spectrum. Flouroscopy does not use flourescence for the detection. It used to use flourescence in the screen that was viewed. This is a very different type of imaging.
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Nadia Nagib Wallace commented May 11In reply thread
N
Nadia Nagib Wallace
Seattle ·
May 11
@Tim Well said. In other words, hello!
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J commented May 11In reply thread
J
J
Philadelphia, PA ·
May 11
@JAS And they wonder why "half of U.S. adults under 50... take wellness guidance from online influencers instead" of "medical professionals" (see another article from today). Real dermatologists failed me; influencer nutritionists saved me. I hate the woo-woo but sometimes woo-woo actually works and we just don't quite understand why yet.
Recommend 22
Q commented May 11
Q
Q
Atlanta ·
May 11
The acupuncture felt like a reach. It contained no hypothesis of a mechanism. Correlation is not causation and here even the correlation was weak. If we weren't so inundated with fake science as it is this wouldn't be so disconcerting. I don't think we need more confusion between good science and bad.
Replies 3
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Chloe commented May 11In reply thread
C
Chloe
DE ·
May 11
@Joe Bob Jones
Hi, so this actually isn't true. While the fundamentals of acupuncture, like much of modern science, are rooted in the supernatural, it has actually been scientifically proven to work. In other words, it doesn't "work because we want it to," but rather the needles stimulates the nerves to release neuro-chemicals such as endorphins and serotonin that actually do help with symptoms. This research IS actually backed up by science. There was one article put out by the Harvard Medical School that I found particularly insightful! I encourage you to check that out.
Replies 1
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Ruthie commented May 11
R
Ruthie
California ·
May 11
I think that the visuals and construction of the article is beautiful - but sometimes I just want to read static text without needing to wait for pieces of the article to load. Is this possible? Thank you.
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Elmer commented May 11In reply thread
E
Elmer
Sea of Tranquility ·
May 11
@Data Analyst thanks for adding a voice of reason to these comments.
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AMRMSY commented May 11
A
AMRMSY
N FL ·
May 11
This is fascinating!!!
A few years ago I was really out of shape, depressed, it was the pandemic, yadda yadda. I got extremely bad plantar fasciitis. I tried everything to fix it, but western medicine was very focused on symptoms (cortisone shots, icing it nightly) and I was obsessed with a 'cure.'
I found a medical journal paper that suggested the traditional Chinese medicine treatment for plantar fasciitis, Gua Sha, was the only thing that a western podiatrist had seen that would actually 'cure' PF, but most Americans doctors are very hesitant to expect their patients to 'treat' themselves daily at home without a pill etc.
I bought books, watched videos, bought the gua sha tool, and cured my fasciitis in a matter of a week. Improvements were seen almost immediately. I have since gotten acupuncture a number of times. As an 'evidence' minded person, it always bugged me that I was getting treatments that weren't fully understood by science. I had read enough research to know that acupuncture shows effectiveness even in double-blind studies, but I am really glad the *why* is being understood. TCM can have a very new-age vibe, but if more people adopted its practice I suspect we would all be much healthier.
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Pigeon commented May 11
P
Pigeon
NYC ·
May 11
Please, these visually appealing articles are a nightmare for people who are low vision! Is there a way to get the text only version, to use screen readers on? Please take this seriously.
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Susannah commented May 11
S
Susannah
Portland, OR ·
May 11
It's not just Chinese Medicine or the Eastern world, Western bodyworkers and manual therapists have been leveraging fascia to reduce pain by creating more balance and reducing compensatory patterns in people for a very long time. Osteopathy was originally centered on Craniosacral Therapy and Visceral Manipulation and both of these disciplines work with fascia very directly. Craniosacral therapy has roots in American Indigenous healing practices, and they deserve credit for that as well. More modern bodies of work that deal with the Interstitium directly are the work of Ida Rolf (from which Rolfing and Structural Integration were born), Tom Myers (devised fascia lines through a book and educational series called "Anatomy Trains" that has become a newer approach to structual integration.) The work of Gil Hedley. an anatomist or cadaver researcher - show the truths of fascia in his dissections, which don't require looking up. He's worked with bodies pre and post-mortum, documenting patterns that he can then verify in their fascia as cadavers. He and other raw cadaver researchers (and witnesses to these dissections) can trace a scar into the body by the density of fibers it creates and can track it as a line with more tensile strength than the tissue around it, all the way across the body, sometimes interfering with other structures. There are many more contributors in the US to this, but this is a good start.
Replies 1
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RL commented May 11
R
RL
Indiana ·
May 11
Every time I’ve had a medical problem I can’t figure out, acupuncture has helped beyond measure. At the very least, I’ve always figured it is so relaxing that that alone is helping fight inflammation, but this info about qi meridians and interstitial pathways lining up really seems like a profound Western medical explanation for what might be happening and why acupuncture is so effective.
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Sherry commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sherry
NYC ·
May 11
@Giovanna Disagree - Eastern medicine as the article says is based off of 4000 years of experience and data too - it's just not the type of data acceptable under Western/white standards. There is an ethnocentrism at play - hence the dichotomy, in terms of linguistics, between what we call Eastern and Western medicine, and why we think they are in opposition to one another.
Replies 2
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Pierre commented May 11
P
Pierre
Paris ·
May 11
This issue is quite un-scientific, mixing hearsay, hard science, sparse data (or no data at all), popular "wisdom", and so on. I was longing since page 2, for the Chinese master delivering his "I told you we did it since Lao Tse", and it came.
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A D commented May 11
A
A D
The Moon ·
May 11
I find it refreshing that the end result of human self-awareness is not the discovery of Who we are -- but What we are. We awaken to consciousness inside a very organic, self-regulating set of ancient processes. And we clearly still have a long way to go in comprehending what it is we are actually comprised of, and how the body manages to "work".
Articles like this are testimonies to why we need to Fund Science
-- instead of the current trend of making flippant, performative, haphazard cuts to research.
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judy75007 commented May 11
j
judy75007
Jupiter florida ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating. More articles like this
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MP commented May 11
MP
MP
PA ·
May 11
I enjoyed reading article, but it harps annoyingly on a binary division between modern/Western and ancient/Eastern medicine. It would appear that there are lots of modern, scientific Chinese researchers who have been exploring these connections for some time. The article cites 2019 and 2021 Chinese studies that appear to have been exploring these very issues, and I have no doubt that there are plenty more. Just because scientists in the West can't or won't pay attention to modern Eastern scientists doesn't mean that Eastern science is eternally trapped in its ancient past. Maybe we would have "discovered" the interstitium sooner had we been more aware of the work of modern science in the non-Western world.
And things like Covid denialism and vaccine scepticism show us that plenty of Westeners believe deeply in non-scientific ideas. Blind faith is as modern and Western as apple pie.
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Joe commented May 11
J
Joe
Missourah ·
May 11
What an absolutely amazing article!
The Western World Medical breakthrough explained and illustrated magnificently .
One of the best NYTimes articles I have ever read
Bravo !! This “ breakthrough” is significant.
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VSX commented May 11
V
VSX
NJ ·
May 11
What is this article trying to convey at the end of the day? That we have discovered yet another mechanism in the body that may be related to acupuncture? This article could and ought to have been written with clear English summary sentences. All these pictures and a novel like build up to the story frankly took away from the required lucidity in the narrative.
PS: are the pictures representative or just art work? For instance the picture the accompanied meridian flows of acupuncture are they representing actual meridians or just artist’s imagination? The article should have clearly called it out.
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Craig commented May 11
C
Craig
California ·
May 11
This is both interesting and worthwhile. Regardless, (no insult intended to the authors) the animation, while clever, was both distracting and consumed additional bandwidth and electricity. At the scale of at least a few thousand readers, that's considerable waste with minimal benefit, when a few static images could have accomplished the same thing. I'd appreciate the option of eliminating the animation and just reading the article.
Replies 2
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Allen Craig commented May 11In reply thread
Allen Craig
Allen Craig
NYC/BKK/SF/BOG/TANZ ·
May 11
@Jorge This article doesn't represent "our world". The NYTimes is quite famous for their skilled use of graphics to enhance meaning in their stories. Is it really that hard to simply scroll and read without letting yourself get distracted by these rather calm visuals?
People can't maintain focus anymore and want the world to accommodate their desires. THAT'S what the world is really coming to.
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nono boy commented May 11
n
nono boy
Lost Wages, NV ·
May 11
Journalism like THIS is why I'm a Times reader. Kudos and thank you.
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Rob commented May 11
R
Rob
Atlanta ·
May 11
I wish the article had included some discussion of the efficacy of acupuncture. Instead, we just get the usual "it's been practiced for 4,000 years" stuff, which feels like a way of skirting the efficacy discussion.
Other than that -- it's a fascinating read, greatly enhanced by the graphics.
Replies 1
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Maryann commented May 11
M
Maryann
Seattle ·
May 11
Certain bodywork traditions have been on to this for years. As well as certain scientists.
For anyone wanting to learn more, for the "macro" issues, read "Anatomy Trains" by Thomas Myers, who began his career decades ago with Ida Rolf, and has evolved her work and expounded on the science of connective tissue for practitioners but is very accessible writing for anyone interested.
For the "micro" perspective, there's "The Rainbow and the Worm" by Mae Wan Ho, a challenging scientific treatise.
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MGJ commented May 11
M
MGJ
East Village ·
May 11
I LOVE this presentation! I love that it engages more parts of my brain than the part that is decoding literacy and connecting to funds of knowledge. The colors, the shapes, the animation combined with text: Awesome! It's a kind of storytelling that doesn't diminish as we get older.
Also: I listened to the Radiolab episode about the interstitium a few years ago while doing the dishes and was gob-smacked as the drama of their discovery unfolded. And I loved discovering that despite all the competition for my attention that happens all day long, including my inner "should's" and "ought to's" that invade daily life, that my listening faculties were still intact and primed for awe.
Here's to the many ways we make sense of our world and the many ways we can describe and share our ways of knowing with each other!
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Dave commented May 11
D
Dave
Hinterlands ·
May 11
discovered is a funny term, like they discovered america only it was called something else and millions were already there
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John J. commented May 11In reply thread
J
John J.
Portland, OR ·
May 11
@NG disagree. A dozen years ago I suffered a back injury where my pain was most days an 8.5 on a 1-10 scale. I had many appointments with "regular / Western" medicine and doctors that could not give me relief, much less a cure except for intense pain meds (opiates) which I refused. I suffered for months before a friend suggested I try acupuncture.
After 3 visits I couldn't believe the relief I was feeling. I went 3 more times and have not needed to return and have been pain free since.
Over the years I've had multiple friends and family report similar positive results for various ailments. If you don't want to call acupuncture medicine, that's fine, but it definitely isn't "theater and pseudoscience" or RFK Jr MAHA kookiness, it's real and it heals.
Replies 1
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Sonya commented May 11
S
Sonya
Sydney ·
May 11
Brilliantly told and illustrated! Wonderful wonderful. I really loved and appreciated this new insight. Rarely do I read articles and think: ok let me note the authors. Congratulations to artists and the whole team.
A small but conceptually massive note: “For 400 years, anatomists have understood there to be two systems in the body”. Please correct this to say “western anatomists” and also please adjust mentions of a discovery or something else….? A realisation ? Look, I never do this and call out cultural blah blah BUT we risk ignoring 4000 years of Chinese medicine. Also please can we not call it traditional Chinese medicine ? We need a better word for it. In real life it’s combined and it’s informing contemporary practices.
I am also personally ashamed that westerners like myself have swallowed the idea that most traditional Chinese medicine is anything but peer reviewed published research. It is not, it is a deeply documented system that’s been added to for thousands of years.
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Ross commented May 11In reply thread
R
Ross
Sydney ·
May 11
@James it works for me and has, regularly, for more than 30 years across a range of conditions. As has conventional medicine. Using a mix of both where their strengths lie has been my personal approach.
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Kevin commented May 11
K
Kevin
Connecticut ·
May 11
This bodily system doesn’t prove a thing about acupuncture, and linking the two only reinforces belief in acupuncture pseudoscience.
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Debra commented May 11
D
Debra
Midwest ·
May 11
As a person who lives with several autoimmune diseases ( Lupus, RA & Sjögren’s Syndrome) this is so good to hear! I additionally have an autoimmune blood disorder called “Antiphospholipid Syndrome,” seen more times than not with rheumatological autoimmune conditions. My hopeful side says that this discovery of another system for western research will fuel more research and studies, which seems it could really help in a big way fluid related diseases, which Sjögren’s Syndrome is one such disorder.
Acupuncture has helped millions with these diseases and others, not curing them, but calming inflammation, thereby reducing pain. For many of us who’ve had acupuncture over the past decades for pain control knows it worked, but it did not cure.
Unfortunately, many had to deal with chuckle at the sharing of having an acupuncture session, only to regret sharing when we were questioned relentlessly on it being unsafe and a hoax.
I have noticed hospitals adding long practiced foreign healing practices, only I’m not sure if it was that they truly accepted complimentary medicine, or if it affected the collective ego of western medicine and their bottom line. They too, were highly suspicious or against complimentary medicine that knew about the second system. It didn’t stop millions of Americans who were adding complimentary medicine to their schedule. Many of us can thank Dr. Andrew Weil and Dr. Mark Hyman to name a few, who believed in the 2nd system & taught us all about it.
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BeDoHave commented May 11In reply thread
B
BeDoHave
phila pa ·
May 11
@Common Tater Western medicine is good for acute things like strokes and heart attacks. Chinese medicine is better for the systemic, long term chronic conditions that casue strokes and heart attacks.
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Joao Borba commented May 11
Joao Borba
Joao Borba
Curitiba Brazil ·
May 11
My Brazilian grandfather studied in Switzerland and, already fluent in five languages, lived in Washington, D.C. during the 1910s and 20s, where he married my American grandmother. My grandfather treated tuberculosis at a homeopathic clinic in South Carolina in 1926. American homeopathy was a world reference, taught at Harvard, until it was considered quackery in the 1950s and banned in the country. Today, India is a reference with a medical system many times cheaper than the American one. Western medicine needs more knowledge and more humility.
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Time commented May 11
T
Time
Place ·
May 11
absolutely awesome article. Do we have an option of simply reading the text?
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B Dawson commented May 11In reply thread
B
B Dawson
Commonsense, USA ·
May 11
@FCP
You start your comment by admitting you “have not read the article yet” and then go on to criticize at least one of its points. Which is it?
Also, practitioners prefer “complementary or integrative medicine” to “alternative”. Few that I know consider themselves an alternative but rather a part of the healing arts. Some are even in practice with MDs to provide the best possible care for their patients. That’s a truly holistic approach.
As is all too often common with Western medicine, an attempt to validate a negative image uses extreme views as examples, in this case also political ones. I wonder how you feel now about Dr. Blalock, who pioneered heart surgery in the 40s. At the time of his experiments, the heart was off limits to doctors (Noli Tangere if my Latin holds), considered sacred in the most religious sense. Dr. Blalock went against all known science and created a bypass to cure Blue Baby Syndrome, aided by Vivian Thomas, a Black man with no medical training but an incredible mind.
What is today dismissed as unprovable is only so because we haven't found the language or the methods to explain it.
In the words of my freshman year physical anthropology Prof: “There are not capital “T” truths in biology, only little “t” truths. And those are only true until someone proves them false”.
Much of our knowledge has come from those who opened their mind to explore new things even in the face of the establishment dismissing them as quacks.
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Veronica Monet commented May 11
V
Veronica Monet
Grass Valley, CA ·
May 11
Fascinating! Love how this research was presented in this article too! Entertaining and pleasing to the eye and the imagination. I have found great value in acupuncture over the years. Gaining a window into how it may be working its magic is satisfying and I imagine there remain mysteries yet to be uncovered, particularly around the concept of chi. For now, science remains focused on physical matter but at some point I predict we will start to train our research on the electric/energetic aspects of existence too.
Replies 1
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Zebra commented May 11
Z
Zebra
San Francisco ·
May 11
The implications for hypermobile Ehlers Danlos treatment, stigma and care are profound. People with hEDS have been researching and talking about fascia for years and this research is validating.
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A Voice for Alternative Thoughts commented May 11
A
A Voice for Alternative Thoughts
So USA ·
May 11
Simply stated - SUPERB!
Bridging the gap between East and West in something so critical to human health as the basics of how our human systems work is a Major Step Forward for all mankind and even for other animals, especially other primates.
PURE KUDOS to the entire team which put this together.
This work does cause me to ponder the effects all the tattoos that some places all over their bodies and what it does to their long term health. Could all that dye have long term side effects or even have effects on the offsprings of those with many tattoos??
Please keep this type journalism ALIVE!
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Molly commented May 11
M
Molly
Colorado ·
May 11
Thank you for this article bringing this to mainstream discussion and also particularly for the incredibly beautiful visuals that really enhance the information. Well done!
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Barney commented May 11
B
Barney
Port Townsend ·
May 11
A fascinating and important report.
But it’s yet another example of NYT and other media getting carried away with annoying and unnecessary visual gimmicks.
It’s as if this approach is an attempt to win back the limited attention spans of people addicted to TikTok, Facebook, etc. What about people with less than perfect vision or carpal tunnel syndrome?
When reading something like this, it’s more difficult to flip back and forth among “pages” when you’re trying to absorb all the information.
A text-only option isn’t helpful; there should be an option that presents the text and graphics in a layout like that traditional but now less appreciated media: books. You know, where you’re allowed to see more than one nugget of information at a time, and can quickly and easily find what you want to understand and remember.
Every reader’s time is valuable.
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Deb commented May 11
D
Deb
Atlanta ·
May 11
Finally tattoos have been found to benefit mankind somehow. I never saw the value or appeal of them.
Replies 2
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On the other hand commented May 11
O
On the other hand
Canada ·
May 11
Very interesting article, though I didn't like the format. When I was in medical school in the late 50s-early 60s we learned about the interstitial spaces where, in fact, capillaries ended and in some cases there was an exchange, in those spaces, between venous and arterial capillaries. So it's fascinating, after all these years, to discover that those seemingly passive spaces have a big role to play. The obvious conclusion is that Western medicine has been somewhat arrogant in ignoring other medical systems. A recent NYT article discussed extreme pressure applied to the face to "transform' it. Seems to me that this technique works by moving the hyaluronic acid in the interstitial spaces.
Recommend 20
penchild commented May 11
p
penchild
Port Townsend, WA ·
May 11
A powerful article! I had always dismissed Chinese Medicine as a form of quackery! Now here is an explaination.
I don't have a science background,however I am an artist. The astoundingly lovely presentation made it easier for me to understand the concepts! Thank you NYT.
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T. Myers commented May 11
T
T. Myers
Lexington, MA ·
May 11
I would love to see us bodyworkers included in the conversation about fascia and it's interconnectedness. Many of us have been involved with this for decades.
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Karen commented May 11
Karen
Karen
Nevada ·
May 11
Wonderful graphic presentation! Do more of these, please.
My reaction to this new knowledge and possible linkage with ancient Eastern medicine? I remember the biblical quote that "We are fearfully and wonderfully made"---fearfully in the sense of reverent and mysterious.
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James Masciandaro commented May 11
J
James Masciandaro
San Bruno, CA ·
May 11
Chi? Acupuncture? Pseudosciences? Lost me there.
Why does fake acupuncture work as effectively as real acupuncture? Because it’s a placebo effect.
Things like magic potions and acupuncture work on some people, things that are real, like guns and bullets, work on everyone.
No knowledge is absolute. Maybe on to something, but it’s not chi.
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Dianakmax commented May 11In reply thread
D
Dianakmax
Austin ·
May 11
@DQuixote I have been a nurse for over thirty years. I understand that this is not news in the medical community per se however it is still informative to many that are not.
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Wayfarer commented May 11In reply thread
W
Wayfarer
NYC ·
May 11
@Cat Lady It's not the pauses, it's the distracting and annoying moving graphics that make focusing on the text very difficult.
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***************** Me commented May 11In reply thread
*
***************** Me
************* Here ·
May 11
@Barbecue. And yet the article clearly indicates our more complex system appears to have evolved (Darwin's theory of evolution, not a mystical spiritual power) from far more simpler ones. Discovering the scientific reasons for the way things are instead of leaping to the conclusion it stems from an all- powerful, unknowable but benevolent superbeing takes time, thought, and discipline.
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Desertbluecat commented May 11
D
Desertbluecat
Albuquerque ·
May 11
Someday researchers will discover a scientific basis for chakras. Meanwhile, lots of people continue to reap the health benefits of attention to the chakras without full understanding of how it works. That's ok.
Many of us with chronic conditions just want to feel better. If alternative therapies do that, well, as Reiki practitioners say, you don't have to "believe" in it for it to work. It just is.
Replies 1
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mellou1 commented May 11
m
mellou1
Austin, TX ·
May 11
As someone who has received acupuncture for a number of years, this is a "duh" moment, that is, my experience has totally convinced me of the truths behind this article. Acupuncture literally cured my insomnia, regularly fought inflammation, helped my GERD problems, etc.,etc. I am 80 years old, and this work, plus a clean diet and good supplements, has evoked praise from my GP and others that I am really healthy. Never too late, I guess - I hope the medical profession will teach how everything is connected and begin to heal the human body in this day and age.
Replies 1
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Damon Fields commented May 11
D
Damon Fields
Virginia ·
May 11
Can NYT make a transcript version of this article available? The illustrations are lovely, but animated-graphics text is difficult for me to process.
Replies 1
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Sun and Stars commented May 11
S
Sun and Stars
Moon Up Above ·
May 11
This article reminds me of what my Chinese Tai Chi master tells his students:
That health comes not just from working your muscles in your limbs, but also from massaging your internal organs through stretching and breathing, and moving your chi around. Gently.
Tai Chi gives a little internal movement to your organs (fascia!) and unblocks your meridians (interstitial!) whilst also loosening up your muscles and helping your lymph move. Win win win win!
Replies 1
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Mr. Kinch commented May 11
M
Mr. Kinch
California ·
May 11
This is a foundational building block to get us closer to the truth about our biology that sets the stage for understanding the corresponding energy systems that impact us all day.
The presentation was also very helpful to visually place this newly discovered system in context.
Thanks to the researchers and NYT for publishing this amazing breakthrough.
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VH commented May 11In reply thread
V
VH
Oregon ·
May 11
@Alex
I agree. Science is lending some evidentiary support for one Eastern medical treatment and now my fear is that every unproven treatment will glom onto this as a way to bolster support for whatever folk, home remedy, alternative, etc. is put forward regardless of actual efficacy.
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nowadays commented May 11In reply thread
n
nowadays
New England ·
May 11
@Cathy I agree. I do not read in this way - fed one sentence at a time, with each sentence then disappearing from view.
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Hello, Kitty commented May 11In reply thread
H
Hello, Kitty
Portland, OR: Last in math/first in meth ·
May 11
@Janet There is no reason Eastern medical and scientific knowledge can't be demonstrated and quantified using the Western scientific method (and much has been).
How the knowledge was originally derived is less important than whether it can be measured and demonstrated in repeatable experiments.
Replies 1
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Alex commented May 11
A
Alex
Wellesley, MA ·
May 11
It’s worth noting that China spends billions of yuan a year to support even the most spurious lead on Chinese medicine, and forgery is common in this field. We should treat this finding with no small amount of skepticism.
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Martin commented May 11
M
Martin
Seattle ·
May 11
Are there any dissenting opinions among researchers who have looked at this?
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Kristy commented May 11
K
Kristy
Houston ·
May 11
These are some of the best graphics I have ever seen. I understand that others may have problems reading it, so maybe it would be wise to offer an option without them, but I think they are the star here. Well done, Jerome! Oh, and the article is great, too. :D
One question tho.. do all these popular 'fascia blasters' ruin the structure, or improve it? I would be very interested in the science here.
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Grams commented May 11In reply thread
G
Grams
Cape Cod ·
May 11
@Elizabeth If only the old Democrats would retire and we had someone to vote for. I won't vote for anyone over 70 and I'm 75.
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BlackCrow commented May 11
B
BlackCrow
SF, NM ·
May 11
Fascinating! Thank you for presenting this information with graphics. It makes it so much easier to understand.
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Working Mama commented May 11
W
Working Mama
New York City ·
May 11
Whoa. We barely seem to understand the lymphatic system yet.
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Sajan commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sajan
Boston ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills
Agreed!
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Anonymous commented May 11In reply thread
A
Anonymous
USA ·
May 11
@Michelle when folks in the west stumble on something of significance then it is discovery even if folks in the East have known about this for eons... lol
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NY commented May 11
N
NY
NY ·
May 11
The comments have turned into a bunch of talking points of how this discovery "explains" how everybody's pet favorite alternative medicine/treatment works. Ultimately a lot of stuff doesn't stand up to the rigors of double-blind placebo studies.
And it does not explain why alternative medicine is full of quacks and hucksters selling very expensive treatments for which there is no evidence. This is what makes misinformation so seductive, it starts out in actual scientific fact and then before you know it you're in the world of healing crystals and pseudoscience.
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NG commented May 11
N
NG
SW ·
May 11
Acupuncture is theater and pseudoscience. The overlap of these acupuncture points and interstitial tracts is more than likely put coincidence. You could Acupuncture has been clearly debunked already. This article is likely going to do a real disservice to science and medicine, especially in our current era rfk and his devotees.
Replies 5
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Don commented May 11
D
Don
Santa Rosa, CA ·
May 11
My spiritual teacher, the late Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, used to call it the subtle body.
Replies 1
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Lynne commented May 11In reply thread
L
Lynne
Ct ·
May 11
@Diane Brenner Yes please. A link to the literature and findings would be amazing.
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Charlie Lindley, MD commented May 11
C
Charlie Lindley, MD
Boston ·
May 11
Something similar is emerging in the brain. The numerous (and varied) glial cells have long been considered mere scaffolding for neurons. That never seemed satisfying - and it isn't. They now appear to form their own networks - doing more than just supportive work. Brave new world!
Replies 1
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C commented May 11
C
C
T ·
May 11
This was utterly fascinating. I worked for a university health sciences center who had a PhD acupuncturist researcher on staff. I hope she’s still there.
The graphics were amazing and stunning!
Kudos to all who worked on this information-packed article with helpful and beautiful graphics.
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Davi commented May 11
D
Davi
Columbus, OH ·
May 11
This discovery should be the Times headline. It has greater impact than politics, Trump, etc.
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Former San Diego commented May 11In reply thread
F
Former San Diego
Spokane ·
May 11
@Cathy, I second! I regularly send articles to my email so that I can print them for my husband (who doesn’t use ‘devices’) and I to read the. These types of formats don’t allow me to do that.
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PJ Lehrer commented May 11
P
PJ Lehrer
New York City ·
May 11
I'd love to see a follow-up next week to see if anyone can remember what this article said. I suspect the results would be dismal. It was hard to find the substance in this piece due to the presentation format. Which is too bad, because this is an interesting development.
Replies 4
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LL commented May 11In reply thread
L
LL
Appleton ·
May 11
@Cathy it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for a text-only version — but in my view, that’s kind of like asking for the script to a movie. This is an inherently visual subject matter (i.e. mapping the anatomy of the body) and I don’t think it’s a reductive or infantilizing treatment of the subject to have rich, animate illustrations. (Kudos to the graphics team who worked on this!)
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TheCRUSH commented May 11
T
TheCRUSH
Los Angeles ·
May 11
Now THIS is news. Amazing how we keep making profound medical discoveries, just when we thought we knew it all.
Replies 1
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Human Being commented May 11
H
Human Being
NYC ·
May 11
It’s surprising how western medicine undermines and dismisses eastern medicine. They are meant to be collaborative — eastern medicine is preventative while western medicine is reactive.
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No name commented May 11
No name
No name
earth ·
May 11
Science contains the ability to accept new knowledge and update thinking which is o e way it differs from religion
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Jan commented May 11
J
Jan
Hampshire ·
May 11
An amazing article, beautifully presented. Thank you for such imagination.
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diane commented May 11
d
diane
socal ·
May 11
I’m 74 years old and many years ago after not being able to get helped by many many different doctors with a breathing problem I was occasionally having I went to Chinatown to a fourth generation acupuncturist from Beijing. They were CEOs with halter monitors sitting there after six treatments I never had another symptom. This was after going to top pulmonologist cardiologist don’t ask. The man was a magician. The wisdom oozed out of him. I am so sad that he was old then and not around anymore to help my son with an autoimmune problem he was so wise and to think that acupuncture than even largely now in the west is treated like crystals. I never found another practitioner that helped me with anything I’m talking 2030 different acupuncturists and different parts of the country never were helped. It just shows you that it’s not only the name of the specialty. It’s the knowledge of the practitioner so sad that he isn’t training Drs
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Cheez Leweez commented May 11
C
Cheez Leweez
Oregon ·
May 11
I originally learned about the interstitium from the Radiolab episode briefly mentioned in this article. I recommend it:
https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium
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Sycamore commented May 11
S
Sycamore
Ossining, NY ·
May 11
death and dying are inevitable, inextricably bound to life and living. Chinese (traditional) culture and medicine understand this, in a way the West does not. and yes, it's good to find new ways of understanding the body, to create better treatments and reduce human suffering. but without a willingness to talk about, explore, and face death with greater respect, Western medicine will always be fighting against, rather than working with, Nature.
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Douglas Leen commented May 11
D
Douglas Leen
Kupreanof Alaska ·
May 11
Nothing new here. Fifty years ago, I took the human anatomy course (University of Washington) and interstitial space was taught as an integral part of the human body and its existence explained how infections spread. I graduated in dentistry where head-neck infections are a great focus of our training as we are doing surgery daily. Alternative medicine has proliferated during my lifetime with everyone claiming they have a cure when modern medicine can't explain everything. I would urge readers to visit quackwatch.org where you will find many answers.
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PNW commented May 11In reply thread
PNW
PNW
PNW ·
May 11
@JAS
No one on this research team made any such statement about "quackery."
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YO commented May 11
Y
YO
Philadelphia ·
May 11
That there is "flow" to the interstitial system implies either a pump or an electric current. Years ago, when I was doing simple DNA experiments as a Chemistry student in college, we would move the DNA through a gel panel to dissipate the strands by size, so we could read their sequence. We used an electric current to create the "flow" through the gel. I am imagining that an electric current could speak to acupuncture, where the needles serve as resistors creating a change in the flow that might have healing properties.
Replies 2
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David commented May 11
D
David
Pittsburgh ·
May 11
Interesting and exciting stuff. Also a lot like Europeans "discovering" a land and people who already existed.
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Tom commented May 11
T
Tom
Michigan ·
May 11
The interstitial space is not a novel concept. It has been understood for decades. What is suggested here is that perhaps it represents a functional “highway” for cells and molecules to follow. It may just as well represent random diffusion of particles traveling from regions of higher to lower hydrostatic pressure conveniently following the fibrous network of our connective tissue coinciding, but not directly connected to the acupuncture meridians. This particle movement might be promoted by techniques such as medical massage and myofascial therapy as practiced by many osteopaths and physical therapists. It would be interesting to see the effect of these techniques applied to radioisotopic tracers or the tattoo ink experiment versus sham massage and myofascial therapy. Also interesting to see what effect electrical gradients have on particle movement through the interstitium.
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Sun and Stars commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sun and Stars
Moon Up Above ·
May 11
@Roger
You know how I know that acupuncture works? Two reasons.
1. It worked on my dog. He doesn't suffer from placebo effect.
2. It worked on me.
My acupuncturist on the first visit asked me to wiggle my (bad) back after having the needles in a few minutes. I was astonished to find - no pain! She said "I wish I could bottle that look on your face" and she's seen it many times on others...
Don't disparage it.
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Grace commented May 11
G
Grace
Salt Lake City ·
May 11
The information presented in this article is compelling. However, I find the animated article format difficult to read and navigate, especially on my phone. I strongly prefer a standard text article option. The interactive format interferes with readability and makes it harder to engage with the material. The. Again, I just subscribed to two print magazines so… maybe I’m just a boomer disguised as a millennial.
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preiher commented May 11In reply thread
p
preiher
US ·
May 11
@Cathy
Ah, yes, remember the ”Text-Only” button, that used to permit a focused reading (and printing) experience of the content of the article?
Those were the days my friend.
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ryandake commented May 11
r
ryandake
CA ·
May 11
what a fabulous presentation. Kudos to Jerome Berthier and Avraham Cooper for creating such a clear explanation of a complex system.
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Tom commented May 11
T
Tom
Oregon ·
May 11
This is great research, and a sore temptation to overindulge in Magical Asian stereotypes.
No, the interstitium is not chi. "Traditional" Eastern medicine may have painstakingly refined a set of highly-effective, poorly-understood, and unjustly underappreciated functional procedures over millenia of trial and error, but the traditional reasoning of *why* it works is a pastiche of dark-ages mystic bologna.
It's important to keep this distinction in mind, even as we celebrate finally reaching a deeper understanding of the human body that explains the functional mechanisms that Eastern practicioners have been just as blind to as Western ones have even as they've used them.
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Matt commented May 11
M
Matt
Maryland ·
May 11
The eye has something similar. There is a normal system called the trabecular mesh work, which works as a kind of filter. It can become clogged over time, which causes eye pressure to raise. There is also a uveoscleral outflow, which is more akin to an interstitial flow. Prostaglandins actually increase this type of flow, so we actively prescribe prostaglandin analogs to increase uveoscleral flow. It would be interesting to see if prostaglandin analogs also altered interstitial flow.
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On the other hand commented May 11
O
On the other hand
Canada ·
May 11
As a follow-up to my previous comment about being taught about the interstitial spaces way back, in medical school, we were also told that the blisters you get when you burn yourself are filled with interstitial fluid.
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Sophia commented May 11
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Sophia
chicago ·
May 11
Amazing. A friend of mine studied traditional Asian medicine. This certainly suggests reasons why acupuncture and massage help alleviate symptoms.
Beautiful illustrations too.
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CB commented May 11In reply thread
C
CB
NY ·
May 11
@Hello, Kitty I agree that Cathy, as many others have, asked for text only. Perhaps the NYT can give links to that and more in-depth articles. Others have commented that reader only views are available in browsers. But to call those of us who like and benefit from illustrations as "children who need picture books" is downright mean. Cathy is not the only one who hated the format and took their swipes. Maybe the NYT should also give guidelines at the top of comments to keep the discussions civil.
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Bee commented May 11
B
Bee
our only home ·
May 11
I second the 'wow' and 'duh' reactions others are having to this article. As someone who has experienced the positive affect of acupuncture throughout my life (and has known people to have been able to give birth pain free - yep, in this country - with the aid of acupuncture) I'm happy to see that a way to translate this medicine into 'western' medical language is being created. Just because we can't 'see' it in Western medical terms doesn't mean a treatment system isn't real and effective.
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Wallace Grommet commented May 11
W
Wallace Grommet
Seattle ·
May 11
Considering that acupuncture has consistently shown little health benefit and failed to demonstrate successful treatment of any condition in numerous trials, why attempt to have it bask in reflected glory afforded by legitimate science?
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Paul commented May 11
P
Paul
Canada ·
May 11
This is a new discovery in the same way Westerners sailing into China discovered it. Except China had already discovered itself and apparently has long benefitted from insights into this corner of human anatomical science.
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John Mitchell commented May 11In reply thread
J
John Mitchell
New York ·
May 11
@PaperTrope: "people who can't handle"
Why be judgmental? Different people have different preferences.
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Dave W commented May 11
D
Dave W
Ojai CA ·
May 11
I totally get that the discovery of the interstitium connects Western medical thinking with the ancient knowledge of acupuncture. What puzzles me however is the physiology behind the consequences of acupuncture treatment being reconciled with the new information about how the interstitium network works.
In my ignorance, I assume that acupuncture works so well because of neurological stimulations. If I follow the thinking correctly about how the interstitium works, it is all about the relatively much slower transport of liquids and what they contain—— particles, chemicals, cells. No neurological stimulations at all. Am I missing something?
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Jean Michelle commented May 11
Jean Michelle
Jean Michelle
Wisconsin ·
May 11
Is this the same collagen I am trying to get rid of in my braised pot roast that I am now cooking?
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Mike commented May 11
M
Mike
Washington ·
May 11
The book...The Spark in the Machine published in 2014 by DR DANIEL KEOWN tells all about this! Really interesting!
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Sue TR commented May 11
S
Sue TR
Chapel Hill, NC ·
May 11
Thank you! This was richly informative. The graphics greatly enhanced the meaning to be drawn from the text. Well done to everyone associated with this!
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Sadie commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sadie
Boston ·
May 11
@GrimW mayve acupuncture fails some of those tests, but you have to admit it has great staying power. I wonder why. Can't be ONLY placebo. Or... placebo is more than you think!
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Tony commented May 11
T
Tony
Madison, WI ·
May 11
You have to wonder how much this system is operating in the brain, specifically in the blood-brain barrier.
Also, isn"t this a interstitial system a good basis for "meso-fascial" massage?
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Kat commented May 11
K
Kat
Rockland ·
May 11
As someone with an autoimmune condition that doesn’t neatly fit any current medical diagnoses, this advancement holds great promise. I also think it could help with understanding endometriosis - and perhaps find a link between it and autoimmune issues.
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Joe Bob Jones commented May 11
J
Joe Bob Jones
Oregon ·
May 11
Let’s not fawn over acupuncture. Acupuncture is a placebo, and a pseudoscience, which is why it sometimes has some benefits for pain, and little else.
It can occasionally work because we want it to, but not because there is any science to it. Put another way, acupuncture needles when applied arbitrarily by a practitioner, when applied randomly, or when not actually applied at all (but the patient believes they are) have the same effect.
Just felt the need to point this out.
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Thinking Matters commented May 11
Thinking Matters
Thinking Matters
Seminole, FL ·
May 11
"Subtle energy" healing techniques derive from the assumption that the body has a barely-detectable system that affects health. While these techniques have been used for centuries, American medical practice has insisted on physical evidence of its existence, despite the evidence of its effects.
Acupuncture, homeopathy and "hands on" healing have been engaging these "subtle" systems for centuries.
It's nice to see physical, RCT-based "medicine" catching up!
Thanks to the person with the tattoo and the scientists who had the insight to follow a subtle lead.
And thanks to the artist who produced the great graphics for this story!
Next step: entertaining the idea that the subtle system can be influenced from outside the body, without swallowing something or being injected or cut open.
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George Hayduke commented May 11
G
George Hayduke
Hite, Utah ·
May 11
Excellent work. Thank you! Great explanations for non-medical people.
The NYT needs far more of this and a lot less of US politics.
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Elmer commented May 11In reply thread
E
Elmer
Sea of Tranquility ·
May 11
@Steve insurance agents are not scientists, doctors, or statisticians, as you must surely know. Insurance companies do not represent "Science". Their job is to pay for as little as possible under the arbitrary rules they themselves put into place.
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Matt commented May 11
M
Matt
Columbus, OH ·
May 11
This discovery is very exciting but this article is vastly overblowing the effectiveness and usefulness of eastern "medicine." Meridians, chakra points and acupuncture points have all had hundreds of well-sourced scientific studies, and on net have shown to either not exist or have no effect over placebo. Just because people have believed in prescientific ideas for thousands of years doesn't mean that a newly-discovered system maps to those pre-scientific ideas.
Things that work are called medicine. Things that haven't been shown to work, despite searching quite rigorously, should be rightfully discarded. We don't believe in the four bodily humors anymore or miasma, and for good reason. Let these bad ideas die, so that we can move to newer and better ideas.
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Roger commented May 11
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Roger
Paris ·
May 11
The fact remains that acupuncture has not been conclusively or consistently shown to perform significantly better than placebo in any randomized controlled double-blind trial. While many studies indicate that acupuncture is more effective than no treatment (waitlist), it often shows similar efficacy to "sham" (placebo) acupuncture. If acupuncture were truly centred on a real circulatory system such as this 'interstitium', then surely it would perform significantly better in most randomised controlled trials.
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Jeff and Mary commented May 11
J
Jeff and Mary
Needham, MA ·
May 11
This feature of anatomy has been known to surgeons for a very long time. If one puts a skin graft on any facial bed, it stays alive because of the interstitium, until neovascularization can occur. Special wound problems relating to radiation therapy likely occur because all three circulations are disrupted. I also have concerns that many of the adverse effects on the extremities associated with dialysis are related to alterations in the interstitium circulation, especially from the deposition of calcium. A key issue not addressed in this article, but of huge importance, is why tissues thicken and stiffen with age. The loss of flexibility is a major issue, and it is not understood.
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Notsolongago commented May 11
N
Notsolongago
Miami, FL ·
May 11
Thank you for bringing this information to a wider audience. Eastern and wholistic medical practices hold great value for improving human health for our unbelievably sick and diseased population. We are in a full blown health catastrophe yet Regardless of what some commenters suggest, allopathic practitioners and the historically male dominated western medical traditions have mostly ignored the benefits of traditional plant and herb based remedies. Capitalism and greed have made us sick. All logical alternatives to our failed medical system should be given serious consideration.
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Small mind commented May 11
Small mind
Small mind
Beauport Massachusetts ·
May 11
Great article, and maybe a warning about getting tattoos. The inks are supposed to be non toxic, but no safety or any FDA testing has been done on them. The article explains why the tattoos fade and how the fine details blur together, while the inks penetrate deeper into the body tissues, ie fascia and institium.
Recommend 16
Donna Riley-Lein commented May 11
D
Donna Riley-Lein
Fairhope, AL ·
May 11
Decades ago, I had back surgery for an injury. The surgery was successful, but I had lingering pain. My surgeon referred me to an acupuncture clinic. It was all very medical, and as I talked to my acupuncturist, I learned she had been a medical doctor in what was then the Soviet Union. It took several weeks, but my pain eased. I have visited acupuncturists to ease a strained shoulder and after knee surgery, all with a medical doctor's blessing.
My eyes were opened to "Eastern medicine," and I still firmly want tests, research and explanations for the treatments.
I think both systems can learn something from each other.
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O'Paco. commented May 11In reply thread
O
O'Paco.
Elsewhere ·
May 11
@JAS Greek ancient medicine also believed in similar concepts like the 'humors" that went pretty much unchallenged for 2000 years. Probably every cultural tradition in the world has similar concepts. The difference is that by having scientific evidence we know that there is a new system and that 99.999% of those tradional ones were wrong anyway.
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Mimi commented May 11
Mimi
Mimi
OnTheBorder ·
May 11
There are a couple of assumptions here that are utterly false. There is no such thing as "Western" and "Eastern" medicine. There is only medicine which is used all over the world. Secondly, acupuncture is NOT a valid treatment. It's popularity or the fact that non-science people have validated it by forcing insurance to cover it have nothing to do with whether or not it "works". In proper studies, it does not work. Nor is the current way it is practiced "ancient"--rather it is relatively modern--there were no very fine steel needles in ancient times and acupuncture in ancient times was little more than bloodletting.
This discovery may be important but it does not in any way validate false premises such as proposed here.
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Phil commented May 11In reply thread
P
Phil
NJ ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
Dismissing something out of hand as pseudoscience is not going to help. What the article says is perhaps there is a connection to why acupuncture works to the interstitial system. The claim acupuncture does not work does not help. I am sure there are cases where western medicine does not work. And placebo effects are real showing a mind-body connection that some eastern systems suggest.
The fact we are even discovering the interstitial system now should make us humble and admit that we don’t know everything. And anything that treats a whole person may not be so easy to study when there are so many more variables to consider that could impact efficacy. Just because we have been following something for 400 years doesn’t mean we should continue doing that because if we did we wouldn’t have changed anything.
Dismissing something out of hand is certainly not science in my dictionary. If we can’t measure something effectively it may also point to our measurement system.
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susan siegel commented May 11
s
susan siegel
carrboro nc ·
May 11
Please create a readable and shareable version of this article!
Thanks.
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Kevin commented May 11
K
Kevin
Sonora Mx ·
May 11
Retired MD here. This just doesn't seem to be big news. All living tissue requires nutrients ( think oxygen and glucose) to be delivered to it and waste products ( think CO2) removed. So we have always known that these nutrients and wastes had to be delivered by some sort of diffusion process. That is what this article describes. Not sure why the authors think this is such important finding. Perhaps I am wrong.
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gordon commented May 11
g
gordon
California ·
May 11
I’m left with just one question. How were ancient Chinese able to figure this out hundreds or thousands of years ago? Ok, and a second question: what took western medicine so long? Better late than never I suppose.
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Susan Anderson commented May 11
Susan Anderson
Susan Anderson
Boston ·
May 11
Wow. Thank you for this terrific presentation. You make something which seems complex into a straightforward presentation.
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Vee Kay commented May 11
V
Vee Kay
Tucson ·
May 11
Powerful article. Loved the graphics and animation.
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Karen commented May 11In reply thread
K
Karen
Switzerland ·
May 11
@Jack Z It's not a binary. Non-Western therapies are often referred to as complementary medicine.
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MM commented May 11In reply thread
M
MM
UT ·
May 11
@George They just used different language and are mostly interested in function, rather than structure. Our Western minds think structure first, function last so we have not been able to grasp it, but it’s been there all along.
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HonestNauman commented May 11In reply thread
H
HonestNauman
Eugene, OR ·
May 11
@Dale “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof” is rhetorical NOT scientific. “Extraordinary” is not a formally defined, quantitative term but rather a SUBJECTIVE one.
The appropriate scientific standard considers whether the evidence is sufficient to support the claim. If not, the claim is NOT supported. And there is certainly more to research here, but let’s stop with the rhetoric if we are claiming to “do science”.
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Robin commented May 11
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Robin
Montreal ·
May 11
Interesting article. Amazing graphics!
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Debby commented May 11In reply thread
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Debby
Honolulu ·
May 11
@GrimW neither of these modalities’s effects are placebo based. Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years, and would not have persisted in various societies if ineffective; usually that has an extinguishing effect. Additionally spinal pain can be relieved by manipulation. If it didnt work, it wouldn’t persist as an option….
Recommend 16
Sadie commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sadie
Boston ·
May 11
@globe or rather, it is more holistic than than the tat getter thought. But I have come to the conclusion that to be human is to live with and endure all kinds of toxins. It is a toxic life for most of us, in various ways. A marvelous, evolutionary crucible, if you ask me. And the poisonous pinnacle of anthropogenic suffering.
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Mallard commented May 11
M
Mallard
Central Ohio ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating! Thank you for this important piece of new knowledge. I have gone to acupuncturists for years over the objections of others and have found help. The Chinese trained acupuncturist I have gone to most recently is a fount of knowledge and has helped me and others with things he could perceive about our bodies (past injuries/surgeries) about which we did not tell him.
Recommend 15
Jack commented May 11
Jack
Jack
Asheville ·
May 11
Chinese medicine: "We've been talking about it for 4000 years." But western medicine has refused to listen until now? Just like with the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems in disease presentations like long COVID, western medicine has simply disregarded and belittled people with diseases and symptom presentations they couldn't understand with their narrowed understanding of the scientific method. Western civilization suffers from an overweening arrogance that will ultimately be its downfall.
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Michael commented May 11
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Michael
Salem, Ma ·
May 11
Fascinating. I would have preferred to simply read the piece as plain text. The animation was lovely, but a crolling through it annoying and slow.
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Kathy commented May 11
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Kathy
New Jersey ·
May 11
Fascinating! Keep studying. Keeping connecting. Keep learning. KEEP FUNDING THE WORK.
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Cathy commented May 11
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Cathy
NY ·
May 11
I really, really want to read this--in paragraphs, without the annoyance of scrolling through all the background noise and pictures. I can't read it this way. Could the Times possibly publish text alternatives to this enormous waste of time, space, data resources, design energy, for people who aren't children who need picture books? Just a link for text please.
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Elizabeth commented May 11
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Elizabeth
Colchester, VT ·
May 11
Articles like this should make every decent, hopeful American vote against Trump and cronies and their ruinous, cynical view of scientific inquiry. Don’t we want to be smart and intrigued? To let our knowledge grow as we face the future? The mental stagnation of the current GOP is catastrophic. It is literally killing us. SAVE SCIENCE. VOTE BLUE.
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Gatineau Hills commented May 11
G
Gatineau Hills
There ·
May 11
As a physician, I read this piece with great interest. Unlike some commenters who found the presentation frustrating, the combination of text and graphic illustrations fired my imagination. It slowed me down where I might otherwise have hurriedly scrolled through, allowing me to connect the dots of this fascinating story with older knowledge.
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Paul Doane commented May 11
Paul Doane
Paul Doane
NH ·
May 11
Important and fascinating information.
I remember decades ago when we first opened to China, James Reston, a NYT reporter, had emergency surgery there and they used acupuncture for the anesthesia. Obviously, there's still a lot we don't know.
The downside, of course, is that at this important time, we have an entire administration stripping away research
in most medical areas and discounting science.
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CB commented May 11In reply thread
C
CB
NY ·
May 11
@Cathy As someone who is not a child, but find visuals important to understanding concepts, I did not find this a waste. This piece is likely not meant to be a comprehensive TLDR version. I agree that links to more in-depth articles would be nice for those who wish to delve deeper, but graphics are a great way to give an overall concept clarity. As a former university professor, I can attest that, sometimes, a picture indeed is worth a thousand words.
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Angela commented May 11
A
Angela
The West ·
May 11
Great to have this article but it’s a little too little, a little too late for the field of Chinese Medicine and for Acupuncturists in America. Most people do not know that Acupuncture is in crisis as a profession and is soon to be extinct. Acupuncture schools are closing left and right throughout the nation, and the national licensing body is likely to collapse in the next few years. There will be fewer and fewer acupuncturists graduating in the near future, and how acupuncture will continue in this country is uncertain. Dry needling done by physical therapists is a substandard bastardization of actual acupuncture and is not a replacement.
This is a systemic problem with multiple root factors, including the fact that most acupuncturist are stymied by a lack of job opportunities because our medical system has fought to keep acupuncturist out of mainstream medical models. There is extremely low to no insurance reimbursements. There is high student loan debt to income ratios. Most acupuncturist by default have only one option to practice their medicine: open their own small business. Statistically, small businesses have a 50% rate of failure in the first 5 years. Acupuncture businesses have an 85% failure rate. Already 50% of licensed acupuncturists are not practicing 5 years after graduation.
At this point the dominoes have already started to fall. There may be a way to save a couple of the schools but even that is uncertain. We will lose an amazing medicine. I am a L.Ac
Recommend 1.4K
Diane Brenner commented May 11
D
Diane Brenner
Worthington, Massachusetts ·
May 11
This is both a "wow" and a "duh." Exciting to see how much progress has been made on understanding this from a Western perspective. I am sure this fascinating complexity is true for most life forms. For me, I would have preferred a presentation where the text is not being "spoon fed" bit by bit, constantly interrupted by rapidly changing graphics. Some are typically fine, but for me this one was overkill. Perhaps you could add a link to a more text-focused presentation for those of us who prefer it In any case. mighty interesting.
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Quizzical looker commented May 11
Q
Quizzical looker
Irvine ·
May 11
This is superb science communication. Bravo to the team.
Recommend 1K
Keeka May commented May 11
K
Keeka May
Chapel Hill NC ·
May 11
A link to a “text only” version would be greatly appreciated. That said: I love the colorful graphics. Give readers a choice.
Humans are diverse in their learning preferences. And needs. I taught elementary children for many years. Information presentation and absorption comes in many styles.
The annoyance expressed by some readers is real. Give them an option. Textbooks of color animation - verses solely text. Neither is superior. Both are legit options.
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Michelle commented May 11
M
Michelle
Gainesville FL ·
May 11
As the Chinese medical system (and others) have worked with this system for thousands of years, it’s an identification rather than a discovery, no?
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DJ commented May 11In reply thread
D
DJ
New York ·
May 11
@Cathy
On the contrary, I found the NY Times presentation was not distracting. It was engaging, interesting and highly informative. I am 70+ years old and a retired elementary school principal, who learned many years ago that children, college students and older adults generally love being read to and shown picture books. A multi-sensory approach to presentation of information - like the use of charts, graphs and drawings - often seen in science journals - has a powerful impact on comprehension and assimilation of data and scientific jargon.
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JAS commented May 11
J
JAS
Lancaster PA ·
May 11
It’s striking to me that western medicine “Announces a groundbreaking discovery” while simultaneously calling eastern medicine quackery. The arrogance.
Scientific discovery of our human systems isn’t “Done” or anywhere near “ complete”. I wish doctors and insurance companies would stop with their “trust us we know best” nonsense and exhibit a little intellectual curiosity.
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HBot commented May 11
H
HBot
Westchester ·
May 11
I really enjoyed the visual elements of this article! They brought the science to life.
Recommend 616
OnceOverseasProf commented May 11
O
OnceOverseasProf
Madison, Wisconsin ·
May 11
Australia, among other nations, now requires its premed students to take coursework in traditional Chinese medicine. We should follow suit. In the years I lived there, I was never healthier and more relaxed with robust traditional massage once a week, acupuncture several times a year, organic remedies for common colds and coughs, and fresh vegetables prepared in a myriad of ways. Ancient civilizations have much to teach us!
Recommend 615
Alison Howard commented May 11
A
Alison Howard
Berkeley Springs, WV ·
May 11
There will be many clinicians, known as alternative healers, who will be both ecstatic and irritated by this article. They have known about this system for their entire careers, and are known as cranial sacral, myo-fascia, and polarity therapists, to name a few. During yoga teacher training, we were taught about meridians. I’m glad that western science is catching up.
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Grace commented May 11
G
Grace
Portland, OR ·
May 11
There is also another circulatory system - the Cerebrospinal Fluid system. This specialized fluid circulates throughout the brain/cranium and up and down the spinal canal at a rate of about 8-10 cycles/min, though this can vary. The CSF is produced by the choroid plexuses in the lateral, 3rd, and 4th ventricles of the brain. Well-trained, experienced cranio-sacral therapists utilize this system to relieve restrictions in the fascia system which can contribute to musculoskeletal issues, neuromuscular problems, as well as visceral dysfunctions.
Recommend 476
Sarah commented May 11
S
Sarah
Minneapolis ·
May 11
I am stunned by the hubris of this article. Ancient wisdom from an eastern culture has been clouded over by centuries of western "experts" who didn't have the imagination or curiosity to learn about a system that connects two seemingly disparate anatomical functions. Just because they couldn't "see" it doesn't mean it wasn't there. This is not a discovery, people. It is an aha moment that uses modern technology to come to a conclusion that others reached long ago. Today's western doctors need to understand just how beautifully connected we are--both within our own bodies' functions and to the entire world of living things, including trees and fish and rivers. It's a closed loop system of mutual dependence. And the sooner we realize that the sooner we can heal ourselves and this dying planet.
Replies 6
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Sceptic commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sceptic
Upstate NY ·
May 11
@Cathy Excellent point. Navigating the visual screens is distracting and annoying and unnecessary. The jerky boxes seem to have a life of their own. The graphics can easily be inserted in the text with normal scrolling.
Recommend 452
Jeremy commented May 11In reply thread
J
Jeremy
Midwest ·
May 11
@Cathy This!
I understand that others may really like the way this is presented.
However, I have my subscription to the Times because I enjoy the quality of the writing. Please consider providing an alternative presentation for those of us who prefer in depth reading.
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AK commented May 11In reply thread
A
AK
Chicago ·
May 11
@Cathy
It’s fine you want an alternative version of the feature, but there’s absolutely no reason to be so derisive of the work of the artists and editors who put this together.
Recommend 407
Lyle Ross commented May 11In reply thread
L
Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
@Don B, I think you misunderstood. Every claim made in the article was based in experimental evidence. All the speculation was listed as speculation.
Science works this way. You make an observation, you speculate as to what it means, then you test that hypothesis.
I too am comfortable with Western medicine. Not so comfortable that I think it is the end all or that we've solved every problem. I am glad to see folks are still researching and pushing boundaries.
Recommend 380
David commented May 11
D
David
CT ·
May 11
This method of presenting interesting factual information as a series of sliding cartoons with childish illustrations was very frustrating. I stopped reading and went elsewhere to read about this fascinating insight.
Replies 2
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C commented May 11In reply thread
C
C
Portland ·
May 11
@Cathy The level of complaint here when faced with a piece that was clearly carefully and thoughtfully engineered is striking. What if we just suggest a text-only option in the future? This is a complex story that includes visuals to clarify the nuances. Medical textbooks are not “ for children “ and yet they explicate concepts with imagery.
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Fazzi Battaglia commented May 11
F
Fazzi Battaglia
New York ·
May 11
People have know this intuitivly for ever but have been gaslighted into beliving its not. Our bodies are the exact mirror of the fabric of space.
Recommend 360
CJ commented May 11
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CJ
Down Under ·
May 11
This is so good and explained so well. I love it. And thank you to our scientists. And jurnos who put this article together.
Recommend 349
Seth Polley commented May 11
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Seth Polley
Texas ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating. We still don’t understand how our own bodies really work.
I always find it strange that people talk about creating AGI or creating a conscious machine when we haven’t even begun to understand how our bodies work, much less our brains, even less how we are conscious.
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Recommend 262
Ithaca Reader commented May 11
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Ithaca Reader
Ithaca ·
May 11
I am not very good at reading these long NY Times visual essays, but I was curious if tattoos could cause illness so I did some research if tattoos are potentially toxic because of the interstitium.
I learned that Tattoo ink is injected into the dermis, but it does not stay there. A significant portion (60-90%) is transported via the interstitium to the lymph nodes and other organs. Tattoo inks-containing heavy metals, PAAs, and PAHs— can be toxic to this system by causing long-term inflammation, accumulating in lymph nodes, and triggering immune dysfunction.
Many inks contain hazardous chemicals and pigments that can include heavy metals like cadmium or mercury, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), which are linked to cancer and neurodegenerative diseases.
Recommend 254
JK commented May 11
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JK
Canada ·
May 11
I am a physician, but not a basic science person or researcher. To me this sounds like they're just calling the space between cells "a new circulatory system." As the article does say, we call this the interstitium. But the interstitial space is not a new discovery at all, the only novelty is calling it a circulatory system. Maybe the interesting part is just that new research is showing that more and further transportation of cells, hormones, etc. occurs within this space than previously thought (vs those things getting taken up and transported by the lymphatic or circulatory systems instead). Maybelline there's something I'm missing, though.
Recommend 246
pp commented May 11In reply thread
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pp
Columbia, SC ·
May 11
@Cathy I am a 49 year old fully grown adult who has struggled with processing lines of text for years, despite being an avid reader, thinker, and skilled writer. Only lately have I started to reckon with this and the realization that my thinking is far more structural and visual than textual or linear, but this doesn’t mean I’m less intelligent just because lines and lines of words on a page are harder for me to parse. It’s extremely frustrating to see visual thought characterized as “childish,” because it isn’t— what is frustrating to you is a relief to me, and that has nothing to do with my intellect being ruined by twitterfication of writing and reading. I continue to read religiously and write reams of words, it’s just an entirely different experience for me. The best approach would be to offer ideas in both a linear and textual style as well as this more graphic style so that a broader diversity of minds can engage them. No need to disparage the minds that use pictures more than sentences to understand the world. I’m grateful to see a publication involving such beautiful images to transmit scientific information.
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Recommend 235
Bronwen M commented May 11
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Bronwen M
Merced, CA ·
May 11
Radiolab had an episode on this in Nov. 2023 that was quite good https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium?gad_campaignid=20986778840&gbraid=0AAAAAD9J8hHHITG-WoOSdz-AgdgHYGVkl
Recommend 232
DD commented May 11
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DD
upstate NY ·
May 11
That this fascinating insight could open a world of possible advances in therapies once again demonstrates the need for, and value of, basic scientific research. There is much to be done, but unfortunately this comes at a time when the prevailing ethos of the leaders of our government is primarily anti-science, as they cut funding and espouse beliefs rooted in magical thinking and folklore.
Recommend 228
Surprise me commented May 11
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Surprise me
Stockholm ·
May 11
…did I mention I had IBD cured through use of this information?
Recommend 228
Zoe commented May 11In reply thread
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Zoe
Alpha Centauri ·
May 11
@Cathy. As a graphic designer I love this format. It drives home the ideas with images. Please keep using the enhanced graphics. It really sets the Times articles apart.
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Recommend 224
Susan F commented May 11
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Susan F
Western Mass ·
May 11
Up until a few decades ago, scientists didn't understand fascia either, they thought it was "inert." I suspect there is no inert or unconnected matter in our bodies. There's just connections we haven't discovered yet. As we see here, yet again.
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Recommend 223
Jesse commented May 11
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Jesse
North Dakota ·
May 11
Acupuncture has been proven to have no benefit to the human body. There is evidence that the acupuncture community cannot even decide amongst themselves where on the body "chi" flows. Blind studies have shown that acupuncture is no better than a placebo.
Recommend 215
Nancy commented May 11In reply thread
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Nancy
Arlington, MA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen as an acupuncture patient I must disagree. I experienced a bad fall during a seizure a few years ago and injured my C-7 in my back. OTC meds were useless for the pain. Weekly appointments with my acupuncturist eliminated my pain and allowed me to function normally again. Everyone has different experiences. With the right practitioner and sharing details of your pain and location it can be a game changer.
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Vinnie K commented May 11
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Vinnie K
NJ ·
May 11
Fantastic to read this piece. Great slow graphics, too, giving time to absorb. And it is so nice to see researchers that have minds open to the "impossible" or "unknown."
Science is endlessly fascinating. And, yes, how often is it true that the "ancients" have been there before...
Recommend 211
Rennie commented May 11
Rennie
Rennie
Portland Oregon ·
May 11
This is a fascinating, wonderful article. I think the combination of text and graphics is great. Seeing the graphs as I was reading about the topic visually displayed really helped me understand how these bodily systems work. Thank you for this excellent writing and illustration.
Recommend 203
Jorge commented May 11In reply thread
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Jorge
Boston, MA ·
May 11
@Cathy I have the same thoughts. Sadly this is what our world is becoming and the youth of today have little ability to stay engaged without some photo or headline....The new style for websites is very much this way - small chunks with photos and graphics.
I guess it all started with 140 characters and Twitter.
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Deborah commented May 11
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Deborah
Pennsylvania ·
May 11
The Northeast is plagued with Lyme disease. After the initial course of antibiotics, established medicine and insurance coverage stops recognizing persistent health issues that are related to the disease. If cancer is able to travel through the body via this other circulatory system, isn’t it possible that Lyme might do the same in some instances? Too many individuals suffer through the effects of this tick borne plague with too few doctors accepting the validity of their complaints.
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Recommend 192
Gkatny commented May 11
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Gkatny
Near NYC ·
May 11
The art and animation is superb! Really fun way to learn about this connection between ancient and new understandings of the human body.
Recommend 189
joy commented May 11
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joy
poughkeepsie ·
May 11
The Chinese have been told over and over again that there is no scientific evidence for Jingluo (literally "meridians and networks") in the human body, and that these therapies are superstition and psychological comfort. There has been so much effort to discredit the foundation of this part of traditional Chinese medicine, only to discover the network's existence. What a shame! This really should humble us to treat traditional knowledge differently.
Recommend 187
Desertbluecat commented May 11In reply thread
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Desertbluecat
Albuquerque ·
May 11
@Cathy I agree 100%. And for all the people saying "to the contrary"....good for you. Some of you like the visuals, some of us prefer text without the jerky boxes, text that doesn't suddenly disappear before we've finished reading, text that isn't over/under laid with visuals.
I've complained about this fancy schmancy text presentation before, but never thought to ask for a link to text. A simple solution that would satisfy all. You are brilliant Cathy!
Recommend 184
steve commented May 11
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steve
hawaii ·
May 11
The doubters here seem to be convinced that western medicine is somehow infallible.
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Sidewalk50 commented May 11In reply thread
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Sidewalk50
NYC ·
May 11
@Diane Brenner I agree. The graphics are insulting and they disrupt the flow (no pun intended) of information. In fact, I stopped reading. If I wanted a comic book, I’d buy a comic book.
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Rachel commented May 11
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Rachel
Boston ·
May 11
As someone who started studying acupuncture in the early 90's, I remember well that when I told folks about it, the most common response was, huh, what is that? In the past two decades, there has been a remarkable explosion in the numbers of people recognizing acupuncture as a legitimate healing modality. But there are always a few who want to know HOW it works, (most often as a way to poke holes in any argument on its supposed efficacy). This research is very cool, and is corroborated by what many of us have seen clinically. Most incredible is when a patient comes in with no knowledge of acupuncture, and yet when a needle is inserted, can trace sensations up the meridian, through pathways documented thousands of years ago in China. Now modern science is able to show this visually. Amazing!
Recommend 165
Concerned Citizen commented May 11
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Concerned Citizen
america ·
May 11
That's great! Except acupuncture doesn't work. The only scientific evidence that acupuncture works is for a very limited and specific location. None of the other stuff does what it says. Acupuncture has always been a pseudoscience. If portions of it were real and evidence based we'd have pulled them from the tradition and incorporated them into Western medicine - which I will remind people is not really just Western medicine it is practiced across the world. There are Chinese doctors who are trained in the scientific method and science. Would it not be realistic to assume tons of people have looked for this link (especially since chi has been known to the West for over 400 years as well).
Besides the fact that acupuncture doesn't work and so this could not give us a mechanism to explain how it does, those meridians that you show simply don't line up with the interstitial follow. A child could connect the dots better.
And finally interstitial fluid is simply not chi. Chi is said to be breath and vital energy and that you can manipulate it through martial arts, food, and meditation. That's not what this appears to be at all.
It's great that we found new anatomy and are learning new things about the human body but not every new discovery needs to be linked to some orientalist "ancient wisdom"
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Recommend 162
Lyle Ross commented May 11
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Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
Cool! I am looking forward to the rigorous testing of some of the hypotheses written about here.
Recommend 155
Glen commented May 11
Glen
Glen
Medina, MN ·
May 11
Amazing! Wonderful article! Graphics are key here! Thank you!
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James Firelocke commented May 11In reply thread
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James Firelocke
New Jersey ·
May 11
@Cathy
I actually found the illustrations very helpful. So maybe they can publish a version with visual effects, and one without.
Recommend 148
sujatha commented May 11
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sujatha
U.S. ·
May 11
Please stop saying “relatively recent discovery” about things China and India have known for 4000 years.
Recommend 148
Eric commented May 11In reply thread
Eric
Eric
Hudson Valley ·
May 11
@JAS.
"Western medicine" didn't announce anything.
Some scientists did some research and presented dome papers, and the New York Times wrote a story about it.
"Western medicine" isn't a person. Or an organization.
It's a body of knowledge and practices.
Recommend 143
Ed commented May 11In reply thread
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Ed
Michigan ·
May 11
@Cathy Sometimes this kind of progressive scroll really works well, especially when depicting a sequence of events. In this case though I agree with you. I found the effect to be distracting for the text blocks.
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Diana commented May 11
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Diana
New Bern,North Carolina, USA ·
May 11
We "discovered" America, when it was already civilized. And now this! When it was known.
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Barth commented May 11
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Barth
MA ·
May 11
This was beautifully illustrated, animated, and told. As a Radiolab fan, I can understand your editorial decision to tell the story this way.
Recommend 128
FCP commented May 11
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FCP
MA ·
May 11
I am a traditionally trained ( Johns Hopkins) physician. While I have not read the article yet, I was not told in medical school that the interstitium was isolated and separated in the manner this article implies. Many cells move through it. The lymphatic system is also ubiquitous at the microscopic level, so isolating its contribution would be very difficult.
I also do not find the connections to acupuncture particularly novel. Acupuncture has been an accepted therapy for decades in Western medicine, but the real difference is that its acceptance required clinical trials to demonstrate it worked and to demonstrate the diseases it was effective for.
The scientific method and clinical trials are the only reason western medicine has achieved civilization altering health results. Without them we would still be bleeding people and blaming “miasmas” for epidemics.
Yet many advocates of “ alternative medicine” and “ naturopaths” refuse to support clinical trials and believe they can “ practice” without any scientific knowledge, training or education.
Unfortunately the NIH and HHS are now under the control of these quacks.
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Jaki commented May 11
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Jaki
NJ ·
May 11
This was a fascinating and almost magical article. This place we call Earth is so cool.
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Sera commented May 11In reply thread
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Sera
Seattle ·
May 11
@Paul Doane Acupuncture was certainly not used in lieu of anesthesia for James Reston’s appendectomy (please, don’t try that at home!). Reston’s only claim was that acupuncture may have helped relieve some of his postoperative pain. A rather important distinction…
Recommend 121
Jim Loving commented May 11In reply thread
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Jim Loving
Alexandria VA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen Acupuncture has worked for many, including me, specifically for Post Herpetic Neuralgia. Agree more researched needed, but this comments seems to have an axe to grind.
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Martha Zoey commented May 11
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Martha Zoey
Osoyoos, BC ·
May 11
Excellent article! I remember learning about interstitial fluid in first year anatomy (or was it physiology?) class at chiropractic school in 1989. That was a long time ago, so not the newest “discovery!”
Recommend 116
Don B commented May 11
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Don B
Ithaca, NY ·
May 11
The article is about as scientific as one built on cartoons would lead one to suspect. Physicians quoted outside their area of expertise, constant deference to pseudoscience, one wonders if the followup replies in the scientific literature to these rather breathless claims will receive the same coverage.
To ask it is to answer it. Sober scientific analysis doesn't sell papers to the middle class layers focused on their hokum and bunkum as well as the latest "discoveries" related to the purity and essence of our bodily fluids.
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Larry commented May 11In reply thread
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Larry
Houston, TX ·
May 11
@Cathy Two comments: First, every browser has a "reader view" that will provide the text-based version that you are asking for. Simply google "reader view in browsers" for a description of this feature. If you are using the NYT app, you might suggest that the NYT add this feature to its app as well (though the app will let you copy the link to the article via the Share feature, which will allow you to open the article in your phone's browser).
Second, as we can see from the comments, many people enjoy this presentation; some even find it more conducive to their own way of processing information. While your request for a text-based version is quite reasonable, deriding these readers as "children who need picture books" is unnecessary at best, and mean-spirited at worst.
One final point: The NYT produces some of the best journalistic graphics of any publication (and I read a lot of them). Please keep up the good work!
Recommend 114
JimT commented May 11In reply thread
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JimT
Canada ·
May 11
@Cathy: Thanks for speaking for me on this point. I spent a lot of frustrating time trying to scroll back up to read paragraphs that wandered off just as I was trying to read it.
I note that your comment has the highest votes of any here, and appears at the top of the list.
Recommend 113
Elizabeth Volkmann commented May 11
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Elizabeth Volkmann
Massachusetts ·
May 11
Fascinating studies highlighted here. I do find it confounding, however, that modern medicine seems surprised when it is discovered that (1) ancient health and healing practices prove 'true' vis-a-vis a 'groundbreaking' finding; (2) that the human body has something in common with our earthly counterparts, in this case, early life forms - that somehow the human body developed spontaneously from all other life. Maybe there is a future where disciplines combine - modeled by the very interstitium the study highlights. We are more connected to each other and the earthly systems we come from and live among. Humility will always bring us closer to the truth.
Recommend 111
Prof Reader commented May 11In reply thread
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Prof Reader
Georgia ·
May 11
@Cathy
The problem here is that the graphics are more decorative than substantive. Yet, this genre is a perfect illustration of how digital texts create a sharper tension between prose and graphics, elevating the latter to existing on a more equal plane with prose. Richard Lanham has observed that traditionally we look through the visual presentation of prose, but look at the graphics. More poetically Beatrice Ward in the 1930s said that prose is the crystal goblet that holds the wine of meaning. Until multimedia digital texts emerged, prose was the main actor and graphics were the hand maiden. Now, at least occasionally, as in this example, graphics predominate, for better or worse.
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Recommend 107
Michael J commented May 11In reply thread
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Michael J
California ·
May 11
@Cathy Reading text is a relatively new skill while reading visuals is more evolved in humans. Using multiple parts of your brain increases your overall intelligence. The same principle applies to training your nondominant hand to write or throw a ball. DaVinci wrote and read in mirror. He was pretty good at illustration, too.
I am an author illustrator. I’ve written book on learning the pictographic writing systems of Chinese and Japanese. I taught myself to count in letters, read numbers as words, recite the alphabet backwards, and am learning how to (somewhat) quickly read anagrams from words and phrases. Give ‘dyslexia’ a try. It will arouse your mind. ;- )
Bravo to the designers of this article!
Recommend 105
Kathleen Smith commented May 11
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Kathleen Smith
Northern NH ·
May 11
As an MD and an acupuncturist, I applaud this new science. The graphics are wonderful in the initial part of the article, then as one's interest is piqued, become an irritating impediment to learning more. Nonmedical readers may have found them charming and engaging. More details, please.
Recommend 102
Chip Kuhn commented May 11In reply thread
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Chip Kuhn
Bronx ·
May 11
@Cathy golly gee wiz.... I found the graphics quite helpful when trying to visualizing this medical frontier
Recommend 97
Ella commented May 11
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Ella
Longmont ·
May 11
this goes to show that 'science' is certainly not always at the vanguard, nor is science something fixed, to 'believe' in...I don't believe in science, but I respect it as a process. What it calls true is always changing, it is not a dogma, as even my leftist friends have begun to make it 'infallible' and censor questioning or conversations even about body autonomy (vaccines. abortion, is ok! but vaccines, your body is not yours). Meanwhile, i use alternative medicine to cure my autoimmune illnesses, which my western doctors called 'incurable' because their 'scientific' training is limited, and not always ahead of other sources of knowledge, and often neglects and dismisses things that are ancient wisdom from the east (non white men) from herbalists (women and other healers)
Recommend 97
Jack Z commented May 11
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Jack Z
Boston ·
May 11
Acupuncture and "Eastern Medicine" have consistently failed to show any serious proof beyond placebo. Comments rush to claim "the Chinese knew this for 4000 years" and "Western medicine is hubris", as if the age of medicine is an indicator of being effective. Humoral Theory is also thousands of years old, and also posits a system of fluid transfer in the body to achieve balance. I'm sure if you look at humor charts, they would also spuriously align with dye experiments. Yet nobody is rushing to claim "Humor Theory proven". Perhaps since Humor Theory is Western and meridians are Eastern, educated people rush to defend the latter and claim "they knew it all along" to prove their worldliness. Newsflash from a Chinese person: we are not all ancient Shaolin monks with the key to the universe, and our pre-industrial society was no healthier than your average medieval European village. Before 1800, all humans suffered from a 1/3 infant mortality rate and millions died from plague, smallpox, tuberculosis, and a host of other diseases. In the past 200 years "Western Medicine" (which is just code for replicable medicine with an action mechanism) has made these issues almost non-existent in contemporary developed societies. Our current focus should be extending these miracles to under-developed societies, not pursuing "ancient oriental wisdom" that hasn't worked for 4000 years. Many commenter are not as far off from MAHA as they may think. Also the graphics were annoying.
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Dr. T commented May 11
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Dr. T
United States ·
May 11
Nice article. Thank you. Would it be possible for NYT to provide a separate reading option for this type of article, which would allow the reader to have a simple text of the article, rather than having to scroll through the various illustrations? The presentations are nice, but some readers may just want the text version.
Recommend 93
Tim commented May 11
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Tim
Upstate, NY ·
May 11
Not an overly dramatic association of ancient Eastern medicine with contemporary Western but THIRD-SPACING has been known in the surgical-medical community for quite some time. Post-operative, traumatic fluid due to surgery and/or trauma is not in the cells, not in the vascular system and if it didn't have some form of movement system, all that fluid would probably drain into a huge pool drawn by gravity alone. But, that too is not the case, so an interconnected system probably does exist - it hasn't been well-defined.
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Recommend 91
laurel commented May 11
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laurel
new york, ny ·
May 11
Fantastic article. This is the kind of positive, upbeat news story I prefer to read in the newspaper on a Monday morning. Puts an optimistic, hopeful spin on the entire week ahead.
Recommend 89
Thom commented May 11In reply thread
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Thom
Vermont ·
May 11
@braindoctor No, everything that touches our lives is political!! Whether we like it or not.
Recommend 89
Data Analyst commented May 11In reply thread
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Data Analyst
Maryland ·
May 11
First, let me clarify something for laypeople about how science works when examining efficacy. A single positive scientific study doesn't "prove" something works. Studies vary in design, rigor, and size. When examing evidence of efficacy, the entire body of scientific literature on that topic needs to be looked at holistically.
When looked at this way, a pretty clear pattern emerges in studies on accupuncture. Accupuncture appears to succeed in less rigorous studies, but performs no better than placebo--fake accupuncture--in studies that are better controlled.
In fact, the specific type of placebo used is very relevant to this story.
In he most rigorous studies, the placebo treatment is accupuncture needles inserted at non-accupuncture points. And this sham needling typically produces effects identical to "real" accupunture. In other words, the efficacy of accupuncture is due to the placebo effect.
The placebo effect produces real and powerful results. It does not mean that the cessation of your pain or inflammation was "fake"--patient experiences are real. It means that sticking needles in you had some real effect, but that effect was not due to convergence on meridians of energy.
These effects are also strongest for pain. Pain is highly subject to placebo effects in general, but needling does also appear to produce anti-pain chemical signaling in the body. So, again, patients can have real experiences, and meridians can be mthys.
Replies 4
Recommend 88
Cathy commented May 11
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Cathy
NY ·
May 11
I really, really want to read this--in paragraphs, without the annoyance of scrolling through all the background noise and pictures. I can't read it this way. Could the Times possibly publish text alternatives to this enormous waste of time, space, data resources, design energy, for people who aren't children who need picture books? Just a link for text please.
Replies 53
Recommend 4K
Elizabeth commented May 11
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Elizabeth
Colchester, VT ·
May 11
Articles like this should make every decent, hopeful American vote against Trump and cronies and their ruinous, cynical view of scientific inquiry. Don’t we want to be smart and intrigued? To let our knowledge grow as we face the future? The mental stagnation of the current GOP is catastrophic. It is literally killing us. SAVE SCIENCE. VOTE BLUE.
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Recommend 2.6K
Gatineau Hills commented May 11
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Gatineau Hills
There ·
May 11
As a physician, I read this piece with great interest. Unlike some commenters who found the presentation frustrating, the combination of text and graphic illustrations fired my imagination. It slowed me down where I might otherwise have hurriedly scrolled through, allowing me to connect the dots of this fascinating story with older knowledge.
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Recommend 2.5K
Paul Doane commented May 11
Paul Doane
Paul Doane
NH ·
May 11
Important and fascinating information.
I remember decades ago when we first opened to China, James Reston, a NYT reporter, had emergency surgery there and they used acupuncture for the anesthesia. Obviously, there's still a lot we don't know.
The downside, of course, is that at this important time, we have an entire administration stripping away research
in most medical areas and discounting science.
Replies 5
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CB commented May 11In reply thread
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CB
NY ·
May 11
@Cathy As someone who is not a child, but find visuals important to understanding concepts, I did not find this a waste. This piece is likely not meant to be a comprehensive TLDR version. I agree that links to more in-depth articles would be nice for those who wish to delve deeper, but graphics are a great way to give an overall concept clarity. As a former university professor, I can attest that, sometimes, a picture indeed is worth a thousand words.
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Angela commented May 11
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Angela
The West ·
May 11
Great to have this article but it’s a little too little, a little too late for the field of Chinese Medicine and for Acupuncturists in America. Most people do not know that Acupuncture is in crisis as a profession and is soon to be extinct. Acupuncture schools are closing left and right throughout the nation, and the national licensing body is likely to collapse in the next few years. There will be fewer and fewer acupuncturists graduating in the near future, and how acupuncture will continue in this country is uncertain. Dry needling done by physical therapists is a substandard bastardization of actual acupuncture and is not a replacement.
This is a systemic problem with multiple root factors, including the fact that most acupuncturist are stymied by a lack of job opportunities because our medical system has fought to keep acupuncturist out of mainstream medical models. There is extremely low to no insurance reimbursements. There is high student loan debt to income ratios. Most acupuncturist by default have only one option to practice their medicine: open their own small business. Statistically, small businesses have a 50% rate of failure in the first 5 years. Acupuncture businesses have an 85% failure rate. Already 50% of licensed acupuncturists are not practicing 5 years after graduation.
At this point the dominoes have already started to fall. There may be a way to save a couple of the schools but even that is uncertain. We will lose an amazing medicine. I am a L.Ac
Recommend 1.4K
Diane Brenner commented May 11
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Diane Brenner
Worthington, Massachusetts ·
May 11
This is both a "wow" and a "duh." Exciting to see how much progress has been made on understanding this from a Western perspective. I am sure this fascinating complexity is true for most life forms. For me, I would have preferred a presentation where the text is not being "spoon fed" bit by bit, constantly interrupted by rapidly changing graphics. Some are typically fine, but for me this one was overkill. Perhaps you could add a link to a more text-focused presentation for those of us who prefer it In any case. mighty interesting.
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Quizzical looker commented May 11
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Quizzical looker
Irvine ·
May 11
This is superb science communication. Bravo to the team.
Recommend 1K
Keeka May commented May 11
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Keeka May
Chapel Hill NC ·
May 11
A link to a “text only” version would be greatly appreciated. That said: I love the colorful graphics. Give readers a choice.
Humans are diverse in their learning preferences. And needs. I taught elementary children for many years. Information presentation and absorption comes in many styles.
The annoyance expressed by some readers is real. Give them an option. Textbooks of color animation - verses solely text. Neither is superior. Both are legit options.
Replies 3
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Michelle commented May 11
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Michelle
Gainesville FL ·
May 11
As the Chinese medical system (and others) have worked with this system for thousands of years, it’s an identification rather than a discovery, no?
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Recommend 914
DJ commented May 11In reply thread
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DJ
New York ·
May 11
@Cathy
On the contrary, I found the NY Times presentation was not distracting. It was engaging, interesting and highly informative. I am 70+ years old and a retired elementary school principal, who learned many years ago that children, college students and older adults generally love being read to and shown picture books. A multi-sensory approach to presentation of information - like the use of charts, graphs and drawings - often seen in science journals - has a powerful impact on comprehension and assimilation of data and scientific jargon.
Replies 2
Recommend 726
JAS commented May 11
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JAS
Lancaster PA ·
May 11
It’s striking to me that western medicine “Announces a groundbreaking discovery” while simultaneously calling eastern medicine quackery. The arrogance.
Scientific discovery of our human systems isn’t “Done” or anywhere near “ complete”. I wish doctors and insurance companies would stop with their “trust us we know best” nonsense and exhibit a little intellectual curiosity.
Replies 8
Recommend 675
HBot commented May 11
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HBot
Westchester ·
May 11
I really enjoyed the visual elements of this article! They brought the science to life.
Recommend 616
OnceOverseasProf commented May 11
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OnceOverseasProf
Madison, Wisconsin ·
May 11
Australia, among other nations, now requires its premed students to take coursework in traditional Chinese medicine. We should follow suit. In the years I lived there, I was never healthier and more relaxed with robust traditional massage once a week, acupuncture several times a year, organic remedies for common colds and coughs, and fresh vegetables prepared in a myriad of ways. Ancient civilizations have much to teach us!
Recommend 615
Alison Howard commented May 11
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Alison Howard
Berkeley Springs, WV ·
May 11
There will be many clinicians, known as alternative healers, who will be both ecstatic and irritated by this article. They have known about this system for their entire careers, and are known as cranial sacral, myo-fascia, and polarity therapists, to name a few. During yoga teacher training, we were taught about meridians. I’m glad that western science is catching up.
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Grace commented May 11
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Grace
Portland, OR ·
May 11
There is also another circulatory system - the Cerebrospinal Fluid system. This specialized fluid circulates throughout the brain/cranium and up and down the spinal canal at a rate of about 8-10 cycles/min, though this can vary. The CSF is produced by the choroid plexuses in the lateral, 3rd, and 4th ventricles of the brain. Well-trained, experienced cranio-sacral therapists utilize this system to relieve restrictions in the fascia system which can contribute to musculoskeletal issues, neuromuscular problems, as well as visceral dysfunctions.
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Sarah commented May 11
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Sarah
Minneapolis ·
May 11
I am stunned by the hubris of this article. Ancient wisdom from an eastern culture has been clouded over by centuries of western "experts" who didn't have the imagination or curiosity to learn about a system that connects two seemingly disparate anatomical functions. Just because they couldn't "see" it doesn't mean it wasn't there. This is not a discovery, people. It is an aha moment that uses modern technology to come to a conclusion that others reached long ago. Today's western doctors need to understand just how beautifully connected we are--both within our own bodies' functions and to the entire world of living things, including trees and fish and rivers. It's a closed loop system of mutual dependence. And the sooner we realize that the sooner we can heal ourselves and this dying planet.
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Sceptic commented May 11In reply thread
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Sceptic
Upstate NY ·
May 11
@Cathy Excellent point. Navigating the visual screens is distracting and annoying and unnecessary. The jerky boxes seem to have a life of their own. The graphics can easily be inserted in the text with normal scrolling.
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Jeremy commented May 11In reply thread
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Jeremy
Midwest ·
May 11
@Cathy This!
I understand that others may really like the way this is presented.
However, I have my subscription to the Times because I enjoy the quality of the writing. Please consider providing an alternative presentation for those of us who prefer in depth reading.
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AK commented May 11In reply thread
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AK
Chicago ·
May 11
@Cathy
It’s fine you want an alternative version of the feature, but there’s absolutely no reason to be so derisive of the work of the artists and editors who put this together.
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Lyle Ross commented May 11In reply thread
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Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
@Don B, I think you misunderstood. Every claim made in the article was based in experimental evidence. All the speculation was listed as speculation.
Science works this way. You make an observation, you speculate as to what it means, then you test that hypothesis.
I too am comfortable with Western medicine. Not so comfortable that I think it is the end all or that we've solved every problem. I am glad to see folks are still researching and pushing boundaries.
Recommend 380
David commented May 11
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David
CT ·
May 11
This method of presenting interesting factual information as a series of sliding cartoons with childish illustrations was very frustrating. I stopped reading and went elsewhere to read about this fascinating insight.
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C commented May 11In reply thread
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C
Portland ·
May 11
@Cathy The level of complaint here when faced with a piece that was clearly carefully and thoughtfully engineered is striking. What if we just suggest a text-only option in the future? This is a complex story that includes visuals to clarify the nuances. Medical textbooks are not “ for children “ and yet they explicate concepts with imagery.
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Fazzi Battaglia commented May 11
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Fazzi Battaglia
New York ·
May 11
People have know this intuitivly for ever but have been gaslighted into beliving its not. Our bodies are the exact mirror of the fabric of space.
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CJ commented May 11
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CJ
Down Under ·
May 11
This is so good and explained so well. I love it. And thank you to our scientists. And jurnos who put this article together.
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Seth Polley commented May 11
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Seth Polley
Texas ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating. We still don’t understand how our own bodies really work.
I always find it strange that people talk about creating AGI or creating a conscious machine when we haven’t even begun to understand how our bodies work, much less our brains, even less how we are conscious.
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Ithaca Reader commented May 11
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Ithaca Reader
Ithaca ·
May 11
I am not very good at reading these long NY Times visual essays, but I was curious if tattoos could cause illness so I did some research if tattoos are potentially toxic because of the interstitium.
I learned that Tattoo ink is injected into the dermis, but it does not stay there. A significant portion (60-90%) is transported via the interstitium to the lymph nodes and other organs. Tattoo inks-containing heavy metals, PAAs, and PAHs— can be toxic to this system by causing long-term inflammation, accumulating in lymph nodes, and triggering immune dysfunction.
Many inks contain hazardous chemicals and pigments that can include heavy metals like cadmium or mercury, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs), which are linked to cancer and neurodegenerative diseases.
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JK commented May 11
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JK
Canada ·
May 11
I am a physician, but not a basic science person or researcher. To me this sounds like they're just calling the space between cells "a new circulatory system." As the article does say, we call this the interstitium. But the interstitial space is not a new discovery at all, the only novelty is calling it a circulatory system. Maybe the interesting part is just that new research is showing that more and further transportation of cells, hormones, etc. occurs within this space than previously thought (vs those things getting taken up and transported by the lymphatic or circulatory systems instead). Maybelline there's something I'm missing, though.
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pp commented May 11In reply thread
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pp
Columbia, SC ·
May 11
@Cathy I am a 49 year old fully grown adult who has struggled with processing lines of text for years, despite being an avid reader, thinker, and skilled writer. Only lately have I started to reckon with this and the realization that my thinking is far more structural and visual than textual or linear, but this doesn’t mean I’m less intelligent just because lines and lines of words on a page are harder for me to parse. It’s extremely frustrating to see visual thought characterized as “childish,” because it isn’t— what is frustrating to you is a relief to me, and that has nothing to do with my intellect being ruined by twitterfication of writing and reading. I continue to read religiously and write reams of words, it’s just an entirely different experience for me. The best approach would be to offer ideas in both a linear and textual style as well as this more graphic style so that a broader diversity of minds can engage them. No need to disparage the minds that use pictures more than sentences to understand the world. I’m grateful to see a publication involving such beautiful images to transmit scientific information.
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Bronwen M commented May 11
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Bronwen M
Merced, CA ·
May 11
Radiolab had an episode on this in Nov. 2023 that was quite good https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium?gad_campaignid=20986778840&gbraid=0AAAAAD9J8hHHITG-WoOSdz-AgdgHYGVkl
Recommend 232
DD commented May 11
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DD
upstate NY ·
May 11
That this fascinating insight could open a world of possible advances in therapies once again demonstrates the need for, and value of, basic scientific research. There is much to be done, but unfortunately this comes at a time when the prevailing ethos of the leaders of our government is primarily anti-science, as they cut funding and espouse beliefs rooted in magical thinking and folklore.
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Surprise me commented May 11
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Surprise me
Stockholm ·
May 11
…did I mention I had IBD cured through use of this information?
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Zoe commented May 11In reply thread
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Zoe
Alpha Centauri ·
May 11
@Cathy. As a graphic designer I love this format. It drives home the ideas with images. Please keep using the enhanced graphics. It really sets the Times articles apart.
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Susan F commented May 11
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Susan F
Western Mass ·
May 11
Up until a few decades ago, scientists didn't understand fascia either, they thought it was "inert." I suspect there is no inert or unconnected matter in our bodies. There's just connections we haven't discovered yet. As we see here, yet again.
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Recommend 223
Jesse commented May 11
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Jesse
North Dakota ·
May 11
Acupuncture has been proven to have no benefit to the human body. There is evidence that the acupuncture community cannot even decide amongst themselves where on the body "chi" flows. Blind studies have shown that acupuncture is no better than a placebo.
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Nancy commented May 11In reply thread
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Nancy
Arlington, MA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen as an acupuncture patient I must disagree. I experienced a bad fall during a seizure a few years ago and injured my C-7 in my back. OTC meds were useless for the pain. Weekly appointments with my acupuncturist eliminated my pain and allowed me to function normally again. Everyone has different experiences. With the right practitioner and sharing details of your pain and location it can be a game changer.
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Vinnie K commented May 11
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Vinnie K
NJ ·
May 11
Fantastic to read this piece. Great slow graphics, too, giving time to absorb. And it is so nice to see researchers that have minds open to the "impossible" or "unknown."
Science is endlessly fascinating. And, yes, how often is it true that the "ancients" have been there before...
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Rennie commented May 11
Rennie
Rennie
Portland Oregon ·
May 11
This is a fascinating, wonderful article. I think the combination of text and graphics is great. Seeing the graphs as I was reading about the topic visually displayed really helped me understand how these bodily systems work. Thank you for this excellent writing and illustration.
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Jorge commented May 11In reply thread
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Jorge
Boston, MA ·
May 11
@Cathy I have the same thoughts. Sadly this is what our world is becoming and the youth of today have little ability to stay engaged without some photo or headline....The new style for websites is very much this way - small chunks with photos and graphics.
I guess it all started with 140 characters and Twitter.
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Deborah commented May 11
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Deborah
Pennsylvania ·
May 11
The Northeast is plagued with Lyme disease. After the initial course of antibiotics, established medicine and insurance coverage stops recognizing persistent health issues that are related to the disease. If cancer is able to travel through the body via this other circulatory system, isn’t it possible that Lyme might do the same in some instances? Too many individuals suffer through the effects of this tick borne plague with too few doctors accepting the validity of their complaints.
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Gkatny commented May 11
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Gkatny
Near NYC ·
May 11
The art and animation is superb! Really fun way to learn about this connection between ancient and new understandings of the human body.
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joy commented May 11
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joy
poughkeepsie ·
May 11
The Chinese have been told over and over again that there is no scientific evidence for Jingluo (literally "meridians and networks") in the human body, and that these therapies are superstition and psychological comfort. There has been so much effort to discredit the foundation of this part of traditional Chinese medicine, only to discover the network's existence. What a shame! This really should humble us to treat traditional knowledge differently.
Recommend 187
Desertbluecat commented May 11In reply thread
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Desertbluecat
Albuquerque ·
May 11
@Cathy I agree 100%. And for all the people saying "to the contrary"....good for you. Some of you like the visuals, some of us prefer text without the jerky boxes, text that doesn't suddenly disappear before we've finished reading, text that isn't over/under laid with visuals.
I've complained about this fancy schmancy text presentation before, but never thought to ask for a link to text. A simple solution that would satisfy all. You are brilliant Cathy!
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steve commented May 11
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steve
hawaii ·
May 11
The doubters here seem to be convinced that western medicine is somehow infallible.
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Sidewalk50 commented May 11In reply thread
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Sidewalk50
NYC ·
May 11
@Diane Brenner I agree. The graphics are insulting and they disrupt the flow (no pun intended) of information. In fact, I stopped reading. If I wanted a comic book, I’d buy a comic book.
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Rachel commented May 11
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Rachel
Boston ·
May 11
As someone who started studying acupuncture in the early 90's, I remember well that when I told folks about it, the most common response was, huh, what is that? In the past two decades, there has been a remarkable explosion in the numbers of people recognizing acupuncture as a legitimate healing modality. But there are always a few who want to know HOW it works, (most often as a way to poke holes in any argument on its supposed efficacy). This research is very cool, and is corroborated by what many of us have seen clinically. Most incredible is when a patient comes in with no knowledge of acupuncture, and yet when a needle is inserted, can trace sensations up the meridian, through pathways documented thousands of years ago in China. Now modern science is able to show this visually. Amazing!
Recommend 165
Concerned Citizen commented May 11
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Concerned Citizen
america ·
May 11
That's great! Except acupuncture doesn't work. The only scientific evidence that acupuncture works is for a very limited and specific location. None of the other stuff does what it says. Acupuncture has always been a pseudoscience. If portions of it were real and evidence based we'd have pulled them from the tradition and incorporated them into Western medicine - which I will remind people is not really just Western medicine it is practiced across the world. There are Chinese doctors who are trained in the scientific method and science. Would it not be realistic to assume tons of people have looked for this link (especially since chi has been known to the West for over 400 years as well).
Besides the fact that acupuncture doesn't work and so this could not give us a mechanism to explain how it does, those meridians that you show simply don't line up with the interstitial follow. A child could connect the dots better.
And finally interstitial fluid is simply not chi. Chi is said to be breath and vital energy and that you can manipulate it through martial arts, food, and meditation. That's not what this appears to be at all.
It's great that we found new anatomy and are learning new things about the human body but not every new discovery needs to be linked to some orientalist "ancient wisdom"
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Lyle Ross commented May 11
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Lyle Ross
Houston ·
May 11
Cool! I am looking forward to the rigorous testing of some of the hypotheses written about here.
Recommend 155
Glen commented May 11
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Glen
Medina, MN ·
May 11
Amazing! Wonderful article! Graphics are key here! Thank you!
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James Firelocke commented May 11In reply thread
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James Firelocke
New Jersey ·
May 11
@Cathy
I actually found the illustrations very helpful. So maybe they can publish a version with visual effects, and one without.
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sujatha commented May 11
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sujatha
U.S. ·
May 11
Please stop saying “relatively recent discovery” about things China and India have known for 4000 years.
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Eric commented May 11In reply thread
Eric
Eric
Hudson Valley ·
May 11
@JAS.
"Western medicine" didn't announce anything.
Some scientists did some research and presented dome papers, and the New York Times wrote a story about it.
"Western medicine" isn't a person. Or an organization.
It's a body of knowledge and practices.
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Ed commented May 11In reply thread
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Ed
Michigan ·
May 11
@Cathy Sometimes this kind of progressive scroll really works well, especially when depicting a sequence of events. In this case though I agree with you. I found the effect to be distracting for the text blocks.
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Diana commented May 11
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Diana
New Bern,North Carolina, USA ·
May 11
We "discovered" America, when it was already civilized. And now this! When it was known.
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Barth commented May 11
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Barth
MA ·
May 11
This was beautifully illustrated, animated, and told. As a Radiolab fan, I can understand your editorial decision to tell the story this way.
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FCP commented May 11
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FCP
MA ·
May 11
I am a traditionally trained ( Johns Hopkins) physician. While I have not read the article yet, I was not told in medical school that the interstitium was isolated and separated in the manner this article implies. Many cells move through it. The lymphatic system is also ubiquitous at the microscopic level, so isolating its contribution would be very difficult.
I also do not find the connections to acupuncture particularly novel. Acupuncture has been an accepted therapy for decades in Western medicine, but the real difference is that its acceptance required clinical trials to demonstrate it worked and to demonstrate the diseases it was effective for.
The scientific method and clinical trials are the only reason western medicine has achieved civilization altering health results. Without them we would still be bleeding people and blaming “miasmas” for epidemics.
Yet many advocates of “ alternative medicine” and “ naturopaths” refuse to support clinical trials and believe they can “ practice” without any scientific knowledge, training or education.
Unfortunately the NIH and HHS are now under the control of these quacks.
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Jaki commented May 11
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Jaki
NJ ·
May 11
This was a fascinating and almost magical article. This place we call Earth is so cool.
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Sera commented May 11In reply thread
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Sera
Seattle ·
May 11
@Paul Doane Acupuncture was certainly not used in lieu of anesthesia for James Reston’s appendectomy (please, don’t try that at home!). Reston’s only claim was that acupuncture may have helped relieve some of his postoperative pain. A rather important distinction…
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Jim Loving commented May 11In reply thread
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Jim Loving
Alexandria VA ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen Acupuncture has worked for many, including me, specifically for Post Herpetic Neuralgia. Agree more researched needed, but this comments seems to have an axe to grind.
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Martha Zoey commented May 11
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Martha Zoey
Osoyoos, BC ·
May 11
Excellent article! I remember learning about interstitial fluid in first year anatomy (or was it physiology?) class at chiropractic school in 1989. That was a long time ago, so not the newest “discovery!”
Recommend 116
Don B commented May 11
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Don B
Ithaca, NY ·
May 11
The article is about as scientific as one built on cartoons would lead one to suspect. Physicians quoted outside their area of expertise, constant deference to pseudoscience, one wonders if the followup replies in the scientific literature to these rather breathless claims will receive the same coverage.
To ask it is to answer it. Sober scientific analysis doesn't sell papers to the middle class layers focused on their hokum and bunkum as well as the latest "discoveries" related to the purity and essence of our bodily fluids.
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Larry commented May 11In reply thread
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Larry
Houston, TX ·
May 11
@Cathy Two comments: First, every browser has a "reader view" that will provide the text-based version that you are asking for. Simply google "reader view in browsers" for a description of this feature. If you are using the NYT app, you might suggest that the NYT add this feature to its app as well (though the app will let you copy the link to the article via the Share feature, which will allow you to open the article in your phone's browser).
Second, as we can see from the comments, many people enjoy this presentation; some even find it more conducive to their own way of processing information. While your request for a text-based version is quite reasonable, deriding these readers as "children who need picture books" is unnecessary at best, and mean-spirited at worst.
One final point: The NYT produces some of the best journalistic graphics of any publication (and I read a lot of them). Please keep up the good work!
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JimT commented May 11In reply thread
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JimT
Canada ·
May 11
@Cathy: Thanks for speaking for me on this point. I spent a lot of frustrating time trying to scroll back up to read paragraphs that wandered off just as I was trying to read it.
I note that your comment has the highest votes of any here, and appears at the top of the list.
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Elizabeth Volkmann commented May 11
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Elizabeth Volkmann
Massachusetts ·
May 11
Fascinating studies highlighted here. I do find it confounding, however, that modern medicine seems surprised when it is discovered that (1) ancient health and healing practices prove 'true' vis-a-vis a 'groundbreaking' finding; (2) that the human body has something in common with our earthly counterparts, in this case, early life forms - that somehow the human body developed spontaneously from all other life. Maybe there is a future where disciplines combine - modeled by the very interstitium the study highlights. We are more connected to each other and the earthly systems we come from and live among. Humility will always bring us closer to the truth.
Recommend 111
Prof Reader commented May 11In reply thread
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Prof Reader
Georgia ·
May 11
@Cathy
The problem here is that the graphics are more decorative than substantive. Yet, this genre is a perfect illustration of how digital texts create a sharper tension between prose and graphics, elevating the latter to existing on a more equal plane with prose. Richard Lanham has observed that traditionally we look through the visual presentation of prose, but look at the graphics. More poetically Beatrice Ward in the 1930s said that prose is the crystal goblet that holds the wine of meaning. Until multimedia digital texts emerged, prose was the main actor and graphics were the hand maiden. Now, at least occasionally, as in this example, graphics predominate, for better or worse.
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Michael J commented May 11In reply thread
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Michael J
California ·
May 11
@Cathy Reading text is a relatively new skill while reading visuals is more evolved in humans. Using multiple parts of your brain increases your overall intelligence. The same principle applies to training your nondominant hand to write or throw a ball. DaVinci wrote and read in mirror. He was pretty good at illustration, too.
I am an author illustrator. I’ve written book on learning the pictographic writing systems of Chinese and Japanese. I taught myself to count in letters, read numbers as words, recite the alphabet backwards, and am learning how to (somewhat) quickly read anagrams from words and phrases. Give ‘dyslexia’ a try. It will arouse your mind. ;- )
Bravo to the designers of this article!
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Kathleen Smith commented May 11
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Kathleen Smith
Northern NH ·
May 11
As an MD and an acupuncturist, I applaud this new science. The graphics are wonderful in the initial part of the article, then as one's interest is piqued, become an irritating impediment to learning more. Nonmedical readers may have found them charming and engaging. More details, please.
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Chip Kuhn commented May 11In reply thread
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Chip Kuhn
Bronx ·
May 11
@Cathy golly gee wiz.... I found the graphics quite helpful when trying to visualizing this medical frontier
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Ella commented May 11
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Ella
Longmont ·
May 11
this goes to show that 'science' is certainly not always at the vanguard, nor is science something fixed, to 'believe' in...I don't believe in science, but I respect it as a process. What it calls true is always changing, it is not a dogma, as even my leftist friends have begun to make it 'infallible' and censor questioning or conversations even about body autonomy (vaccines. abortion, is ok! but vaccines, your body is not yours). Meanwhile, i use alternative medicine to cure my autoimmune illnesses, which my western doctors called 'incurable' because their 'scientific' training is limited, and not always ahead of other sources of knowledge, and often neglects and dismisses things that are ancient wisdom from the east (non white men) from herbalists (women and other healers)
Recommend 97
Jack Z commented May 11
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Jack Z
Boston ·
May 11
Acupuncture and "Eastern Medicine" have consistently failed to show any serious proof beyond placebo. Comments rush to claim "the Chinese knew this for 4000 years" and "Western medicine is hubris", as if the age of medicine is an indicator of being effective. Humoral Theory is also thousands of years old, and also posits a system of fluid transfer in the body to achieve balance. I'm sure if you look at humor charts, they would also spuriously align with dye experiments. Yet nobody is rushing to claim "Humor Theory proven". Perhaps since Humor Theory is Western and meridians are Eastern, educated people rush to defend the latter and claim "they knew it all along" to prove their worldliness. Newsflash from a Chinese person: we are not all ancient Shaolin monks with the key to the universe, and our pre-industrial society was no healthier than your average medieval European village. Before 1800, all humans suffered from a 1/3 infant mortality rate and millions died from plague, smallpox, tuberculosis, and a host of other diseases. In the past 200 years "Western Medicine" (which is just code for replicable medicine with an action mechanism) has made these issues almost non-existent in contemporary developed societies. Our current focus should be extending these miracles to under-developed societies, not pursuing "ancient oriental wisdom" that hasn't worked for 4000 years. Many commenter are not as far off from MAHA as they may think. Also the graphics were annoying.
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Dr. T commented May 11
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Dr. T
United States ·
May 11
Nice article. Thank you. Would it be possible for NYT to provide a separate reading option for this type of article, which would allow the reader to have a simple text of the article, rather than having to scroll through the various illustrations? The presentations are nice, but some readers may just want the text version.
Recommend 93
Tim commented May 11
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Tim
Upstate, NY ·
May 11
Not an overly dramatic association of ancient Eastern medicine with contemporary Western but THIRD-SPACING has been known in the surgical-medical community for quite some time. Post-operative, traumatic fluid due to surgery and/or trauma is not in the cells, not in the vascular system and if it didn't have some form of movement system, all that fluid would probably drain into a huge pool drawn by gravity alone. But, that too is not the case, so an interconnected system probably does exist - it hasn't been well-defined.
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laurel commented May 11
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laurel
new york, ny ·
May 11
Fantastic article. This is the kind of positive, upbeat news story I prefer to read in the newspaper on a Monday morning. Puts an optimistic, hopeful spin on the entire week ahead.
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Thom commented May 11In reply thread
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Thom
Vermont ·
May 11
@braindoctor No, everything that touches our lives is political!! Whether we like it or not.
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Data Analyst commented May 11In reply thread
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Data Analyst
Maryland ·
May 11
First, let me clarify something for laypeople about how science works when examining efficacy. A single positive scientific study doesn't "prove" something works. Studies vary in design, rigor, and size. When examing evidence of efficacy, the entire body of scientific literature on that topic needs to be looked at holistically.
When looked at this way, a pretty clear pattern emerges in studies on accupuncture. Accupuncture appears to succeed in less rigorous studies, but performs no better than placebo--fake accupuncture--in studies that are better controlled.
In fact, the specific type of placebo used is very relevant to this story.
In he most rigorous studies, the placebo treatment is accupuncture needles inserted at non-accupuncture points. And this sham needling typically produces effects identical to "real" accupunture. In other words, the efficacy of accupuncture is due to the placebo effect.
The placebo effect produces real and powerful results. It does not mean that the cessation of your pain or inflammation was "fake"--patient experiences are real. It means that sticking needles in you had some real effect, but that effect was not due to convergence on meridians of energy.
These effects are also strongest for pain. Pain is highly subject to placebo effects in general, but needling does also appear to produce anti-pain chemical signaling in the body. So, again, patients can have real experiences, and meridians can be mthys.
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BeDoHave commented May 11In reply thread
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BeDoHave
phila pa ·
May 11
@Michelle You're right. Sort of like saying that Columbus discovered America when it was already there.
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Cat Lady commented May 11
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Cat Lady
Midwest ·
May 11
Wonderful article, well presented. For those of you complaining about the graphics, not everyone takes in information the same way you do. I liked the pauses, gave me a chance to digest what I’d read.
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John Mitchell commented May 11In reply thread
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John Mitchell
New York ·
May 11
@Cathy: In a Google Chrome browser, right-click in the article and choose "Open In Reading Mode". You will see two panes, with the graphics in the left pane and the text in the right pane. You can move the cursor near the border between the two panes and drag it to the left to shrink the size of the graphics pane.
I thought that the Firefox browser had a similar tool, but I couldn't find it. I don't know if other browsers have something similar.
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MW commented May 11
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MW
Illinois ·
May 11
As an acupuncturist in practice for 18 years I am often the last resort for patients who have not gotten results from Western medicine. And then acupuncture helps them. I appreciate and use western medicine myself - along with Traditional East Asian medicine (Chinese Medicine as referred here), chiropractic and functional medicine. However I am astounded when Americans dismiss ANY other medical system than western. Such hubris! With 4,000 years of history East Asian Medicine has western medicine beaten. It must be the money 😔.
Recommend 81
aacat commented May 11In reply thread
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aacat
Annapolis, MD ·
May 11
@Q And yet acupuncture has worked for people for a few thousand years. In this case, I don't think fake science is the problem as much as the rigid thinking in western medicine.
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Debby commented May 11In reply thread
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Debby
Upstate-ish ·
May 11
@Cathy I think the graphics are beautiful. However, I agree that articles like this should come with non-graphic versions for accessibility purposes.
I read the NYT on my phone. I recently upgraded my phone, and the graphics look great and behave well. This was not the case on my older phone. Subscribers shouldn’t have to have the latest phones to be able to use their expensive subscriptions. I have to wonder, too, how graphics-heavy articles work for vision-impaired people? I note that there is no audio option for this.
I am also frustrated by the amount of video the NYT is creating, where people who were hired to write are asked to be in front of the camera. I subscribe so I can read articles, not watch journalists speak to me. I would watch the news on tv if I wanted video.
Recommend 79
Eneli commented May 11
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Eneli
Milwaukee, WI ·
May 11
Interesting, but a honestly nuisance to read, all broken up into tiny bits.
How about the traditional essay form? I have no interest receiving information as if it were a text.
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JH commented May 11
J
JH
New York, NY ·
May 11
Regarding the text embedded in mega graphics/video style of this article--I get that it puts food on the table for your graphics people. For those of us who just want to read the text on a desktop (yes, we still exist) it requires nonstop often pointless and confusing scrolling to get from one paragraph to the next. Perhaps you could offer both options for those of us who find it distracting, time wasting, and mostly pointless.
Recommend 77
Kevin commented May 11
K
Kevin
CO ·
May 11
I am a general surgeon who has manipulated lots of interstitial tissue over a 30 year career (which often can be separated easily with the fingers or careful scissors dissection to achieve a welcome tissue plane) agree with the suggestion that extraordinary claims require more rigorous evidence but I was equally troubled by the suggested supposition that eastern and western medicine meet with this purported discovery as this seems to be thinly disguised hype to trigger interest in the article itself. How does sticking remarkably thin needles into this fluid space produce any change resulting in these remarkable anecdotal results? And how do vague applications of 4000 year old equally anecdotal energy support this meeting of the minds? I’m not saying there couldn’t exist a connection but it seems this ain’t it yet.
Recommend 77
Tim Wood commented May 11
T
Tim Wood
Calhan Colorado ·
May 11
This is the first time I've seen the NY Times use a comic book style presentation of information on a piece of this length. Scrolling through the article is like going frame-to-frame in a comic book/graphic novel. One graphic with one related, focused voice-over of information is great a way to communicate in shorter pieces. But... there's an art to doing it when you go beyond the number of frames that are in sight at the same time.
Here, it feels counter-productive. The part of my brain that is automatically tieing sections of text together (hey... we're still below that section header! this paragraph is next to that one. that frame is by these other frames) is nuked by this approach. Scott McCloud and company probably said something brilliant about what the brain does subconsciously to help us connect those frames.
It also takes away the ability go back through quickly and find those key bits I want to save/review/etc... or when I have that aha moment and want to mentally check the cross-article connection I noticed. Woah! Chinese Medicine! I need to bring the summary of that into my next Tai Chi class ... tied together with that earlier thought out of western medicine. Flick flick flick.
While I don't want these to go away, maybe it's time to add a "display text only" button to these pieces... or a print to comic book pdf with six frames per page that I can move through far more quickly.
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Nadia Nagib Wallace commented May 11
N
Nadia Nagib Wallace
Seattle ·
May 11
The “groundwater” of our bodies is now known. A wonderful metaphor!
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Science Enthusiast commented May 11In reply thread
S
Science Enthusiast
New york ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen it’s wild to say “If portions of it were real and evidence based we'd have pulled them from the tradition and incorporated them into Western medicine” when that appears to be what’s happening now. That’s how scientific advancements happen. The research that could change that is actively happening right now. That’s what the article was about.
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Alex commented May 11In reply thread
A
Alex
NUC ·
May 11
Ancient Chinese medicine also recommended consuming mercury... how long did it take their own institutions to pivot from that idea? What hubris might have slowed the processes of abandoning the practice?
Look up Qin Shi Huang.
The ancient medical professionals in China were no more or less prone to human shortcoming than we are now, and their institutions likewise.
Any insistence they are otherwise is simply western fetishization of China. I find it ironic how those who see them through this lens or so cocksure of themselves. I
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Harry Haff commented May 11
H
Harry Haff
New Bern NC ·
May 11
Great article: presentation, content and impact.
My wife and I had a small business years ago. She did the office work and I did production. After about 3-4 years she had a total physical collapse. We lived close to an Ivy League University and medical school. After maybe a dozen visits, a long list of specialists, their conclusion was we can do nothing, and get you affairs in order Luckily, in the next town over an accupuncturist had just returned to the US from several years in China and opened a practice near us. He simply said on the first visit,"Do not say a word about what you heard at the Medical Center." He did his extensive evaluation and started treatment. My job was to brew these awful smelling teas between treatments. So stincky that when our cats saw the teapot they would run outdoors. During a New England winter! About 3 months later she was cured and fine and went back to the U Medical center. The doctors refused to believe her.
Nuff said.
Recommend 73
SharBrem commented May 11
S
SharBrem
Bremen, Germany ·
May 11
Why in the world are scientists surprised that our bodies (all biological entities) are coordinated systems, that within our bodies, everything EVERYTHING is dependent on and coordinated with everything else? There is no separation of systems.
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pethistorian commented May 11
p
pethistorian
Onancock, VA ·
May 11
Thank you for the graphics in this article! They allowed me to visualize the systems and processes discussed.
I have used accupuncture in the past -- and I also used it on an elderly horse for pain relief -- but now you have me thinking about returning to it for some other ailments associated with aging.
Recommend 73
Ell commented May 11
E
Ell
Maine ·
May 11
Don’t need all the visuals. It is hard to read with all the moving graphics, is there a way to have an option to read the article!
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Recommend 72
W Park commented May 11
W
W Park
NY ·
May 11
Been thinking about this my entire career as a vascular surgeon. The interstitium is how we carry the mother sea with us onto the earth and into space. https://medium.com/op-m-ed/new-interest-in-the-interstitium-is-like-people-suddenly-obsessing-about-the-stuffing-in-sofas-308b1336a317
Recommend 72
R S commented May 11
R
R S
Santa Fe, NM ·
May 11
Anyone interested in Fascia might want to check out the work of Dr Guimberteau. He has done the work on showing how fascia works in the body. His video work of living fascia is the cornerstone of Modern Anatomy today.
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Mr Mster commented May 11In reply thread
M
Mr Mster
US ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen I take your point about the fluid versus chi. But acupuncture "not working" is a different argument that you can't/didn't defend.
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Te commented May 11
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Te
Idaho ·
May 11
Doc here, the interstitium is long known and accounted for, if not fully understood. We call it "third spacing" when patients are volume overloaded and fluid fills the interstitium. This fluid (and many good/bad molecules in it) can be assisted in migrating into lymphatics and blood stream, which then transports it to our organs for processing. The interesting part of the article to me, is that there are 'streams' (my word) within the interstitium that mirror eastern meridians!
Recommend 70
Mostly Rational commented May 11In reply thread
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Mostly Rational
New Paltz ·
May 11
@Paul Doane
Reston's anesthesia was provided by chemical means. The acupuncture stuff was hype.
Here's Reston's account, as reported in this very newspaper: https://www.nytimes.com/1971/07/26/archives/now-about-my-operation-in-peking-now-let-me-tell-you-about-my.html
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New Eyes commented May 11
N
New Eyes
Clovis, California ·
May 11
Barbara A. Brennan, NASA astrophsicist & founder of the Brennan school of Healing and Alan Turing in his 1952 paper on morphogenesis have already linked them. Brennan's "Hands of Light" and "Light Emerging" explain the metaphysics and metaphysics. Brennan noted that the fascia seems to be the energy pathway to restore non-functional organs to operational. Likewise, Turing used wavelength and diffusion equations in fluid biological systems in space to predict physical forms and that form can change given different energy inputs--i.e. genetics is not the prime mover even in biology contrary to Wason and Crick.
Eastern medicine has always allowed for change--Western has not as it looks at the wrong process and pathway.
It is always about process--and if knows what the process actually is, then the door is open to making effective change. The definition of materialism is intelligence in matter, but what the Eastern and Einstein/Turing found, is that intelligence is not in matter, but in incorporeal Infinite Intelligence as the only actor/action.
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Recommend 69
braindoctor commented May 11In reply thread
b
braindoctor
USA ·
May 11
@Elizabeth Can’t we just enjoy the visuals and the descriptions of scientific discoveries without turning things political?
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NLF commented May 11In reply thread
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NLF
Texas ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen acupuncture absolutely works. I was dubious, but after 2 years trying to fix my shoulder pain with traditional medicine, acupuncture full on got rid of it. Perhaps your practitioner was deficient. If you have chronic pain, maybe try again with someone else. It’s actually unbelievable how well it works.
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Tom Cunneff commented May 11In reply thread
T
Tom Cunneff
Charleston, S.C. ·
May 11
@Elizabeth Couldn't agree more. I don't understand how science became partisan. But perhaps it has something to do with evolution and the biblical implications. But scientists are not in cahoots! They love nothing more than to prove other scientists wrong. SAVE SCIENCE! Our lives depend on it.
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Ella commented May 11
E
Ella
Amherst,ma ·
May 11
When I lived in Tokyo many years ago, I was a patient at a big Red Cross Hospital several times. My doctor gave me Chinese herbs for bronchitis. And antibiotics for an infection. The same doctor. When I asked him about his approach he simply said that Chinese medicine was good for some specific things and Western medicine was also good for some specific things, so why wouldn't you use both? A very practical approach!
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Recommend 66
JED commented May 11
J
JED
Texas ·
May 11
I was a co-author on a detailed description of the extracellular matrix makeup of the developing chicken limb. That was in the early 90's. The idea of interstitial space made up of extracellular matrix proceeds me and my colleagues study by decades. This article does not describe a great new discovery, it describes as old discovery repackaged as something new and exciting, like three-ply toilet paper, or free-range eggs.
Recommend 66
Michael commented May 11
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Michael
Cle Elum WA ·
May 11
Wrong design choice, put away your electric crayons please.
I found the format for this article to be anything but helpful toward understanding and retaining the information. Why the cartoons? Do we need to gamify EVERYTHING?
Just present it as a factual essay, left aligned and 12 pt font and it would be a far more tolerable experience.
Recommend 66
Human commented May 11
H
Human
World ·
May 11
Cancer spreading in the body as well as feeling pain that is unassociated with injury somewhere else in the body are the 2 things that come to mind for me in relation to the interstitium. These have been happening for a very long time. I think it’s wild that the basis example to prove this is from mapping where tattoo ink traveled.
Recommend 64
CitizenCO commented May 11
C
CitizenCO
Denver, CO ·
May 11
My Chinese medicine Dr applying acupuncture to me said "Good, the west now knows what Chinese medicine has known for 6,000 years" when I told her about the article.
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Andi P. commented May 11
A
Andi P.
DC Metro ·
May 11
Wow, this is absolutely fascinating!! Humans keep on discovering new scientific things, and I absolutely love reading about it. Thank you, NYT, for the way you displayed the digital version of the article; I enjoyed the flow and helpful graphics -- the visuals are really useful for better understanding the science. So freakin' cool.
Recommend 63
Steve commented May 11In reply thread
S
Steve
New York ·
May 11
@Alison Howard
There are also many charlatans out there. As a physician acupuncturist it has always distressed me when I seem acupuncturists and other non-physician "healers" who make all sorts of claims for treating a variety of illnesses for which they had no evidence of any sort.
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Recommend 62
KB commented May 11
K
KB
South Haven, MI ·
May 11
The format makes this incredibly frustrating to read. It would be nice to have a button to remove the graphics and read as a regular, long form article
Recommend 62
C Wolfe commented May 11In reply thread
C Wolfe
C Wolfe
Bloomington IN ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
That's the trouble with militant rationalism. Once you've asserted that something can't be true because it offends a sense of what's rational based on your knowledge at a particular time, then you become less open to incorporating "squishy" knowledge—information that doesn't fit codified systems of thought. Which is exactly what the article is about: the existence of a system that's been little known but which now has to be factored into a holistic understanding of how the body works. You're resisting this new information because you're afraid it lends credence to something you're rejected as irrational.
Many individuals find relief in acupuncture. You seem not to have considered that there's no scientific "proof" of that because there was insufficient understanding of this interstitial system to devise methodological testing. Revisit this paragraph:
"Acupuncture is used to treat conditions as varied as chronic pain, migraines, seasonal allergies and nausea caused by chemotherapy, but some of its actions have never been completely explained. The discovery of the interstitium may help us understand in modern biomedical terms how acupuncture works."
(Like others, I would like to give the article a second read as continuous text. The graphics create a useful impression the first time, but the overkill is distracting if I want to go back and made sure I understood this idea new to me as a cohesive whole.)
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Ann Hocevar commented May 11
A
Ann Hocevar
South Carolina ·
May 11
i really dislike these piecemeal presentations. i will no longer ever even begin one again. there might be interesting information somewhere there, but it is not worth what your presentation requires to get to it.
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YassBee commented May 11In reply thread
Y
YassBee
Paris ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen In a randomized clinical trial published in JAMA, including 800 older adults with chronic lower back pain (CLBP), acupuncture needling (both a standard course and additional maintenance sessions) improved pain-related disability with CLBP at 6 months and 12 months, with no statistically discernible benefit of additional maintenance sessions.
These findings suggest that acupuncture needling is an effective and safe treatment option for older adults with CLBP. DeBar LL, Wellman RD, Justice M, et al. Acupuncture for Chronic Low Back Pain in Older Adults: A Randomized Clinical Trial. JAMA Netw Open. 2025;8(9):e2531348. doi:10.1001/jamanetworkopen.2025.31348
Recommend 60
Hello, Kitty commented May 11In reply thread
H
Hello, Kitty
Portland, OR: Last in math/first in meth ·
May 11
@CB. I too liked the pictures, but I think Cathy was just asking that a text only version be made available. As someone whose father would be both interested in the material and has difficulty manipulating his phone, that seems like a reasonable request.
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mathitis scholeiou commented May 11In reply thread
m
mathitis scholeiou
Brooklyn, NY ·
May 11
@Cathy It's hard not to escape the conclusion that the article was presented with such flashiness (yet so inaccessibly and ineffectively) specifically so that people could not give it the proper scrutiny.
The article makes the error of dividing the world into "western" and "eastern" medicine. In fact, there is scientifically supported medicine and not scientifically supported medicine. Calling the former "western" has always been intended to demonize it. It calls to mind (as also reflected by many in these threads) arrogant westerners, baselessly thinking themselves superior, and portrays proponents of alternative medicine as the open-minded who go beyond the limits of western ethnocentrism.
This is the oldest marketing ploy for alternative medicine.
I would have loved to have seen a more serious attempt to engage with the relevant research as well as to give skeptics more of a voice in the piece.
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Recommend 59
Liza Morrison commented May 11
L
Liza Morrison
Syracuse ·
May 11
Clever presentation of the idea that fascia and the interstitium may play an important role in illness and in healing. Also an important acknowledgement of 4,000 years of Chinese medical theory. I am reminded, as an American and a human, to be aware of the arrogance we so often bring to solving problems. Many, many other cultures live longer, fuller, richer lives. Approaching our assumptions, our "facts," and our "norms" with more humility would benefit us and, indeed, the world.
Recommend 59
Giovanna commented May 11
G
Giovanna
Italy/New York ·
May 11
It's discouraging to see how many commenters have a profound misunderstanding of science. "Western medicine" isn't at all opposed to "Eastern medicine." What we call Western medicine simply uses the scientific method and forms conclusions based on evidence. If evidence supports the efficacy of a practice, and we can figure out how that practice works, well, that's all Western medicine is. If you start talking about mystical energy pathways and have no evidence to support your theory, then of course scientists won't be very interested. But if you ascribe those same energy pathways to an identifiable biological mechanism and provide evidence to back up your theory, scientists will take you very seriously. It's not western vs eastern. It's just a question of whether certain hypotheses are supported by evidence.
The beauty of "Western medicine" is that we don't dismiss something just because we don't understand it. We try to figure out how and why it works.
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Konda commented May 11
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Konda
California ·
May 11
The Indian sytem of medicine - Ayurveda - divides the body into three segments - Vatha, Pittha, and Kapah.
There are people still treaded and cured with this ancient medicine system. My own heel pain was cured in 2 weeks after years of failed modern medicine treatments.
We need to find out how the anicient sytems deducted and treated ilness. It is fascinating.
Recommend 59
Sasha Zill commented May 11
S
Sasha Zill
Huntington, West Virginia ·
May 11
As an Anatomist with decades of experience teaching in medical school, I am highly skeptical of calling this an 'astounding discovery', let alone one that links eastern and western medicine. The interstitial space has been described in all anatomy textbooks. However, it shows considerable variability among individuals in both imaging of living humans and in dissections of cadavers. In addition, more is unknown than known about the potential contribution of the interstitium to acupuncture, most notably in the time course of its effects. In sum, the article is highly speculative and the science forms more the basis of a modest grant proposal than a front page news article.
Recommend 58
Blue State commented May 11In reply thread
B
Blue State
I vote ·
May 11
@Nic W
Last time I looked at 2026… you’re stating something that is biased and not the case anymore
“Traditional Chinese medicine has shown to be helpful in alleviating symptoms associated with nerve damage from chemotherapy.”
The above is from a quick AI search on traditional Chinese medicine. I could tell you my success story with traditional Chinese medicine, but the attitude in your comment is so dismissive and clueless that what would the point be?
You have already completely dismissed it based on old timey bias that is long outdated now… what was the point of writing that?
Recommend 58
Jim commented May 11
J
Jim
Florida ·
May 11
As a professor medical physiology, I have taught for decades about fluid traveling in "rivulets" through the interstitium. What is new seems to be the role that this plays in the spread of disease through your body.
And, people are very quick to disparage "Western" medicine and praise Chinese medicine. Remember that life expectancy in China in 1900 was about 35 years, despite their millennia of practice with acupuncture. Now it's similar to ours, in the upper 70s. Not because they suddenly got better at acupuncture, but mostly due to the development of antibiotics and vaccines that kept 40% of their (and our) children from dying before the age of 10.
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M commented May 11
M
M
NJ ·
May 11
You can connect peoples together when you’re curious instead of dismissive.
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Metastasis commented May 11In reply thread
M
Metastasis
Oilistan ·
May 11
@JAS
Calm down. Just because you read something doesn't mean you can a) over-interpret it or b) use it as an organizing principle for everything else.
So let me summarize this article: there have been scientific advances that provide a mechanistic underpinning for aspects of traditional medicine that have been validated scientifically. Many other aspects of traditional medicine have not been validated.
But getting on the high horse we reinforce separation of cognitive approaches. Instead, we should celebrate another step .
Traditional medical practices accumulated over thousands f years have provided some important advances. There's also a lot of garbage that amounts to mythology. A scientific evaluation is critical to sort the wheat from the chaff.
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Steve commented May 11In reply thread
S
Steve
Colorado ·
May 11
@Michelle - Maybe just a verification that it also fits into the scientific model?
In other words, it's clear that it has worked for thousands of years but now we know why.
Recommend 56
Steve commented May 11In reply thread
S
Steve
New York ·
May 11
@Paul Doane
You are incorrect in your description of James Reston's experience. He didn't have acupuncture for anesthesia but rather for post operative pain management.
Back in a time of easement in relations between the U.S. and China, American doctors would visit China and, thinking as you did, that the Chinese used acupuncture for anesthesia. The American docs were surprised that the Chinese were using the same anesthesia methods as they did and the Chinese docs considered it an insult as they felt that the Americans were insulting them by thinking they weren't aware of modern medicine.
Recommend 54
Common Tater commented May 11In reply thread
C
Common Tater
TX ·
May 11
@JAS When the elites in China get sick, they run as fast as they can for "Western medicine". Unless you think they run to the traditional Chinese practitioners first? One of the reasons Mao pushed TCM was that there was to Western medicine available!
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Recommend 52
Karen commented May 11
K
Karen
Denver ·
May 11
The information presented in this article is fascinating. The format was incredibly frustrating.
While I appreciate the graphics, I would greatly prefer that they be offered alongside the text, or that there was an option for a text-only format.
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Recommend 52
George commented May 11In reply thread
G
George
London ·
May 11
@Michelle no. Because Chinese medicine didn’t identify the physical structures involved. Ie fascia, interstices. That’s why people were rightly sceptical of it
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Plant Lover commented May 11In reply thread
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Plant Lover
Iowa ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills
I agree, as the saying goes, a picture is worth a thousand words.
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Recommend 52
Kathleen commented May 11
K
Kathleen
Jersey Shore ·
May 11
I have suffered chronic pain for the past five years due to damage in my back. i am under care by a nuerologist and a pain management doctor at Columbis. These doctors have prescribed medications that enable me to function. Acupuncture has enabled me to feel better with less medication and improved my quality of life.
Recommend 51
Larry Oswald commented May 11In reply thread
Larry Oswald
Larry Oswald
Coventry CT ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
My daughter the vet sometimes uses acupuncture on DOGS. She says it sometimes works as evidenced by gait. If they limp in and scamper out that is good. Hard to attribute this to placebo maybe. Anyway we smarties who know something for sure are overestimating our own chi. /;>)
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Recommend 51
Daniel Alpert commented May 11
D
Daniel Alpert
Manhattan ·
May 11
Not only did you summarize this amazing news in an understandable fashion, but this may be one of the greatest graphic interface pieces I have ever seen. A thing of beauty in itself. Well done!
Recommend 51
JW commented May 11
J
JW
PNW ·
May 11
'Ground breaking'? It only took 4000 years for the Western medical establishment to start to understand & accept Chinese/Eastern Medicine. Maybe step two is to stop calling things like acupuncture 'alternative' medicine and begin treating patients through a holistic lens...Of course, this may cut into profits, so I'm not holding my breath.
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Recommend 51
Ben commented May 11
B
Ben
Toronto ·
May 11
Frankly, it is a disservice to the public for a newspaper to publish something less akin to reportage and more akin to wishful-thinking or imaginative futurism, under the guise of reportage.
Recommend 51
CO commented May 11
C
CO
Here ·
May 11
What a creative, uplifting and foundational gift of information this is. These are the signs of hope we need to focus on. The presentation is beautiful. Keep up the artistry of science.
Recommend 51
Emxx commented May 11In reply thread
Emxx
Emxx
CT ·
May 11
@Diana
Perfect analogy.
Recommend 51
Christina commented May 11
C
Christina
Cape Cod ·
May 11
I wonder what implications this could have for people suffering from fibromyalgia.
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Alex Smith commented May 11In reply thread
A
Alex Smith
San Francisco ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills - also a physician - same experience. Came to comments to see if others similarly praised the presentation medium. Somewhat surprised at the negativity! To the authors - well done - love the innovation. Visuals and clear short text combined to bring home the point. This issue is almost easier "seen" than "read."
Recommend 50
Louise commented May 11
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Louise
NYC ·
May 11
My grandmother was a TCM practitioner (acupuncturist and herbalist), and my parents both studied TCM before becoming MDs and practicing emergency medicine / cardiology in NYC. So growing up, I understood that ancient frameworks and modern medicine are complementary. TCM as a framework for general daily wellness and preventative health, and western medicine for everything from routine lab work to acute care. They belong together.
I hope we can all stay curious about what we don't yet have the framework to explain. as an American I am proud of our history of research and scientific discovery capabilities but also understand there is so much we have not discovered. some of these discoveries may challenge our current framework of the body and mind. I think of it like color perception. We know there are colors other species can see that we cannot. We can try and try to find them using the RGB spectrum, but we know that RGB alone can't get us there. You'd need a different framework to see what those other species see.
This isn't a team sport. It's not modern vs. ancient, or East vs. West. We all benefit when we approach health and life with curiosity and humility and work toward a holistic philosophy.
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Recommend 49
MatthewJohn commented May 11
M
MatthewJohn
Illinois ·
May 11
I have several advanced degrees, but I am not a scientist. This article was informative and engaging. It was a perfect introduction to the topic. Thank you
Recommend 49
Maria commented May 11In reply thread
M
Maria
New Jersey ·
May 11
@Cathy Agreed. Many thanks for expressing this sentiment so well. No need for me to comment except to you: Many thanks.
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Eva Lockhart commented May 11
E
Eva Lockhart
Minneapolis ·
May 11
Cranial sacral specialists work with babies after difficult deliveries. Accupuncturists help with countless conditions. (They helped me with stress when I was still working, and sleeping issues) and an extremely high percentage of women, including my daughter, who were experiencing infertility due to polysistic ovaries, became pregnant after being treated by an amazing, very elderly acupuncture specialist here in Minneapolis, as well. It is about time that western medicine started recognizing eastern medicine. Fascinating article and cool graphics.
Recommend 48
Kiki commented May 11
K
Kiki
San Francisco ·
May 11
Some people here are dissing acupuncture. Well, acupuncture saved my life when my thyroid and migraines were out of control. I don't know how my life would have gone without it. It really does work for a lot of people.
As for the graphics, I've never seen so many disparaging comments in previous graphic articles. Some of us are visual learners. They were very effective in helping me literally picture what's going on in the body. Thanks, Jerome.
Replies 3
Recommend 48
My Name commented May 11
M
My Name
Is Sam I Am ·
May 11
What a farce! Is it at all surprising that this article, which unselfconsciously attributes the “discovery” of anatomic knowledge of the circulatory system and lymphatic system to two post-renaissance European men, would also make some bombastic claims about a “very recent knowledge” & a “new understanding” that proved a connection between “Eastern” and “Western” medicine? I think not.
First, William Harvey did NOT discover the circulatory system - it’s a preposterous claim.
Advanced concepts of medicine, anatomy, surgery, etc. predate the renaissance by hundreds if not thousands of years. “Modern Western medicine” was built on the backbone of the work of luminaries like Ibn-Sina ( His compendium - the Canon of Medicine - was referenced for nearly 500 years after his death by European medical practitioners) and other members of a “knowledge society” that flourished in the fertile soil present at many points in Islamic civilizations from South Asia to Spain between AD 800-1400.
Recommend 48
Jack commented May 11
J
Jack
Truckee ·
May 11
The authors have made a bigger deal out of this than it warrants. It's not exactly news that things can move through the interstitial space. How do you think subcutaenous and intramuscular vaccines and other drugs reach the rest of the body? "Diffusion" would seem to be a more accurate description of the movement of molecules through the interstitial space than "flow". And connecting this phenomenon to acupuncture or "Eastern medicine" seems a stretch, to put it mildly.
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Laura McDermott commented May 11
L
Laura McDermott
Hebron, NY ·
May 11
Fascinating! I’m almost as impressed with the manner in which this complex information is presented as the information itself. Kudos to the NYT artists and writers. We need science understandable - now more than ever. Thank you.
Recommend 47
PaperTrope commented May 11In reply thread
P
PaperTrope
New Braunfels ·
May 11
@Cathy They already do. It is printed in The New York Times Magazine. The hard copy might be worth a splurge for people who can't handle the creative and nuanced digital article.
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Erin W. commented May 11
E
Erin W.
Buffalo, NY ·
May 11
I just want to commend the author and artist who created this article! The writing and images worked together extremely well to convey these complex and exciting ideas. I'm so glad the NY Times continues to pay artists for this kind of work instead of using AI.
Recommend 47
Doug M commented May 11In reply thread
D
Doug M
Seattle ·
May 11
@Cathy
I totally agree. As a physician, I’m particularly interested in reading the article. But it’s a nightmare to try to read on a cell phone. Please redo the article New York Times. Just put it in an easily readable format!
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Steve commented May 11
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Steve
New York ·
May 11
I am a physician acupuncturist and believe the article may have overlooked something of importance.
It fails to note something else about the most common acupuncture points: there is a great overlap between them and the most common trigger points which are painful points throughout the body.
So this discovery may not only be important in understanding the disorders mentioned in the article but also chronic pain conditions such as fibromyalgia the etiology of which remains largely a mystery.
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Tom G commented May 11In reply thread
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Tom G
Clearwater FL ·
May 11
@C. Well, the accompanying visuals are hardly an accurate representation of any of the body systems the article describes
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Laura From Michigan commented May 11
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Laura From Michigan
Michigan ·
May 11
I have had chronic lower back pain for almost twenty years, bursitis in both hips and osteoarthritis in both hands - all painful conditions that have been limiting how I move for years. I have tried massage, chiropractics, physical therapy (always six weeks 2 to 3 sessions per week- who has the time?) several times for each condition, cortisone shots, and of course pain pills (thanks to my western medicine doctor!) all with limited to no success. I finally tried acupuncture. Two sessions over two days back to back in the middle of March. For the first time ever- almost immediate relief! My walking has returned to the fast pace I enjoyed ten and more years ago with no hip pain! My left hand is totally pain free! I can stand for long periods of time at my sink or stove without being in agony from my back pain! I can't even begin to express the difference this had made on my 56 year old body. My husband even commented that I seem to have more energy, but in truth, it is not that I have more energy, it is that I have no pain so I am able to move more! I had those acupuncture sessions while on vacation and the acupuncturist urged me to find a reputable acupuncturist in my area for occasional "maintenance", which has proved difficult (distance, not qualifications). If only my western medical insurance would pay for acupuncture I bet more practitioners would open offices away from major cities as this is the most effective treatment for all of my body pain I've ever had!
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SiteReader commented May 11
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SiteReader
Massachusetts ·
May 11
Has popular illiteracy reached so far that an important and fascinating discover must be presented in the form of an animated comic strip? Why not go all the way and make a cartoon of it?
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Bob commented May 11
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Bob
Seattle ·
May 11
To all the commentators complaining about the presentation i.e. visuals vs text, I can only ask...Is that what you take from this wonderful reporting? Seems kinda like missing the forest from the trees.
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V. R. commented May 11
V
V. R.
New York ·
May 11
What a great article and illustrations. It reminds me of a collaboration between Vilém Flusser and Louis Bec although an entirely different path of speculative biology. The book is Flusser’s Vampyrotheutis Infernalis. As to the study in the NYT article I kept thinking of the rhizomatic network in the forest as the “informant” of nutrients for the flora and trees. There’s indeed so much in common going on in our bodies and other natural systems. Knowledge should never be so fragmented that we don’t comprehend these systems as patterns in nature. We are all fractals after all.
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Patricia commented May 11In reply thread
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Patricia
Cincinnati ·
May 11
@Alison Howard Thank you for mentioning these other modalities. I had chronic pain since childhood, and western medicine could not address it at all. So I sought relief through yoga, myo-fascial bodywork, acupressure/Shiatsu, acupuncture and Ayurveda. I have been pain free for the past 22 years! And I have dedicated my entire adult life to the study and practice of offering other people these “alternative healing” modalities. I think of it as filling the “gap” in our western medical system. I am thinking that this “new discovery” sounds very similar to the “perifascia” that anatomist, Gil Hedley, has been talking about for the past 20 years. So yes, I am delighted to see articles written about the unseen, but very much real systems and connections in the body. But frustrated that these alternate models are only seen as valid when western medicine finally catches up.
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Brenda commented May 11In reply thread
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Brenda
Upper Midwest ·
May 11
@Cathy I understand your complaint, and I often feel the same way, but in this case the illustrations/animations are actually helping to visualize the content in a very useful way. It isn't solely an enormous waste of space. That said, an alternate text-only option seems reasonable,.
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S L Hart commented May 11
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S L Hart
Missouri ·
May 11
Just think where this could go if only countries like China and USA could put science ahead of politics.
Science is our future and politics is its antithesis.
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Gdawg commented May 11
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Gdawg
Hotnstickiana ·
May 11
Thank you NYT. This is why I subscribe and read. I'm a PhD academic microbial biologist but miss things outside of what is my broad research range. Articles like this open doors and the comments are almost as fascinating, both those that are positive and negative. To those who are unimpressed or critical, speak your piece but remember that we all should take an opportunity to learn something new.
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Ann commented May 11
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Ann
Earth north ·
May 11
Love the graphics. Really helped me understand the difference between the three systems. And the colors were nice—gave the feel and depth of fascia. I guess some do not like, maybe they need a text only version, but I really appreciated it.
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Sharon Walthew commented May 11
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Sharon Walthew
Pittsfield, MA ·
May 11
So does this apply to women as well? Every single drawing is unabashedly male. I had this issue at a hospital pain clinic for 6 months. 'Circle the area where the pain is" and I would write, next to the male drawing, "My body does not look like this." When will the medical field come to terms with the fact that the "human" body is not a male body? Certainly not in this article.
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Nic W commented May 11
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Nic W
South Carolina ·
May 11
The idea of an interstitial space where fluids, etc., can move has been known for a long time. I'm not sure that the connection to acupuncture makes sense, given the lack of clarity that the system gives as to where the points are or how moving fluid around the interstitial space fixes a problem. Also, Chinese studies about acupuncture are extremely biased and have shown a 100% success rate across the literature, which is impossible, so take some of these sources with a big grain of salt.
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Jon C. commented May 11
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Jon C.
North Carolina ·
May 11
This paper doesn't even mention the recently discovered glymphatic system in the brain, a deep paravascular network thought to be responsible for waste clearance , regulation of cerebrospinal fluid and venous drainage, and who knows what else. Could the brain's glymphatic system be more extensive within the nervous system (ie spinal cord and peripheral nerves). Could it be connected to the interstitium? A true "mind-body" connection. This is all proof that we no little about how the human body works in sickness and in health
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T Irv commented May 11
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T Irv
Ontario, Canada ·
May 11
As a person on the hypermobility spectrum and suffering from an autoimmune disorder, I really hope that science exploring this system will begin to take off. It is long overdue.
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Francis commented May 11
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Francis
Thunder Bay Canada ·
May 11
Sorry, as a scientist I find this article underwhelming. I read this article as well as the original scientific report in Communications Biology. This NYT article overstates the conclusions that the authors found in their report.
First, acupuncture meridian's aren't just a pathway for fluids: they are a pathway for Qi, a supposed energy that has no empirical evidence.
Second, making the jump that this interstitial pathway follows an acupuncture meridian is a far fetched conclusion. "Meridians" follow from the extremities to the torso. Fluids (blood, lymph, etc.) all obviously do too. To attribute this discovery to some sort of east-west medicine nexus is inappropriate.
Third, in the original scientific report, the authors report that interstitial spaces are connected by a network of collogen. Cool science, absolutely, not not earth shattering. (I'm not throwing shade on this work at all, just pointing out that it's not as ground breaking as the NYT claims.)
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Laurel commented May 11
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Laurel
FL ·
May 11
This visuals did nothing to illuminate any concepts discussed in the article nor did they increase any understanding of the science or biology in this research. A graphic depicting the ink and how it travels the interstitial spaces and how the spaces are interconnected would have been very useful. These were just an irritating distraction.
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Currents commented May 11
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Currents
NYC ·
May 11
Proof that medicine, with all its advances, has so much more to learn and discover.
Wonderful article so easy for a layman to understand. Loved the visuals and the analogies.
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Picasso's Revenge commented May 11
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Picasso's Revenge
Hillsboro, OR ·
May 11
In reading this article I’m reminded that one of the most valuable attributes of a research scientist, and for a physician, is humility.
By the way, that goes for the rest of us as well.
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Michael commented May 11
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Michael
New York ·
May 11
Is there a way to read just the text if this article. I find the visuals will be helpful but only after I've read it once
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Steve commented May 11In reply thread
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Steve
New York ·
May 11
@JAS
I have been a physician acupuncturist for 40 years. For many of those years I'd argue with insurance companies over paying for acupuncture. They'd say they would pay for it when there were high level of studies proving its efficacy. I'd say that's fine and as they were using that as criteria for payment I assumed they'd stop paying for things like epidural steroid injections for back pain as there were no such studies supporting them.
The insurance companies' response was that was what they'd always paid for.
So much for science.
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Robert commented May 11
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Robert
Sunnyvale, CA ·
May 11
Thank you for the very interesting article. I wonder if in the future it would be possible to publish text-only versions of such articles to enable reading the content without having to constantly scroll to reach the next couple of sentences. Helpful graphics could be interspersed between paragraphs, rather than dominating (and interfering with) the content.
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M. T. commented May 11
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M. T.
Richmond, VA ·
May 11
Cool graphics but slow clap for "Western medicine" finally catching up to what ancient healing modalities have been practicing for millennia. Of course new systems exist and of course they're interconnected! I'm reminded of the simple brilliance of Charles and Ray Eames's 1970s documentary "The Powers of Ten." How the microscopic layers of our bodies are just as infinite and limitless as the macroscopic cosmos, and how similar.
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Tom 190 commented May 11In reply thread
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Tom 190
Hometown ·
May 11
@braindoctor-- As George Orwell observed in his 1946 essay "Politics and the English Language," we live in a time when "all issues are political issues."
True then, and true now.
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JPBaum commented May 11
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JPBaum
Az ·
May 11
Twenty years ago, I was severely burned in a fire, and the doctors gave me only an 8% chance of survival. As part of my daily recovery process, I began to meditate on the area beneath my skin, specifically the space outside of my blood vessels and above my muscle layers. I started referring to this area as my "chi" and would visualize moving it around my body, essentially asking it to facilitate the healing of my skin. While I understand the limitations of this approach from a strictly scientific perspective, I am quite certain that it had a positive influence on my recovery journey.
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Robert E. Malchman commented May 11In reply thread
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Robert E. Malchman
Brooklyn, N.Y. ·
May 11
@braindoctor Yeah, because science is *never* political. Who would ever deny science or protest vaccines on political grounds? What depraved politician would ever try to restrict interstate delivery an abortion drug with a quarter century of proven safety and effectiveness solely to achieve a political goal of forcing women to give birth? I can't even imagine any rational, decent person doing that, and there can't be an American government run by such irrational, deplorable people who would commit such foul acts. Right?
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Cathy commented May 11
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Cathy
Chicagoland ·
May 11
I think the presentation style helped me read it more quickly! And I was amazed, because as someone with a lot of arthritis, I've always imagined it/something somehow "travels" from one joint to another. (Not that this proves it of course.) When I've mentioned this to my orthopedic surgeons, they have looked at me like I was an alien.
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Lucy commented May 11
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Lucy
Canada ·
May 11
I love the graphic representation of this information, as a teacher I know the value of presenting information in a visual format. The comments show there are people who prefer the text without the visuals. Perhaps in the future, NYT can offer a "text-only" option to these amazing graphics-enhanced news stories. Thanks for all your hard work, this story has fascinating medical implications.
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SMB commented May 11
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SMB
Arlington VA ·
May 11
I don't quite see how this is new or news. I have veterinary medical degree from the 90's and work in research. The interstitium has always been known in western medicine. It is not some sort of mysterious or neglected space - off course "stuff" flows in and out of it. The other system we should be discussing is the body's electrical current, which also factors into acupuncture, disease and well being.
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Joanne Corey commented May 11
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Joanne Corey
Vestal NY ·
May 11
I'm hoping that this will result in more study of connective tissue disorders, such as Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. As it stands now, because connective tissue/interstitum does not have specialists trained in diagnosing and treating related disorders, people spend decades - or even lifetimes - being dismissed by doctors who don't understand that defects in connective tissue are the root of their symptoms affecting multiple body parts and systems.
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C commented May 11
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C
Massachusetts ·
May 11
The illustrations are fantastic. Beautifully done and practical as they visualize content of the article. Bravo!
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Jimmm commented May 11
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Jimmm
France ·
May 11
Fascinating article. Unlike some commenting here, I found the presentation beautiful and effective. Thank you.
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J Davis commented May 11
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J Davis
Toronto ·
May 11
Why would you call this a discovery if this has been known by the Chinese for 4000 years? Are we still doing this in the year of our Lord 2026?
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Pigdog commented May 11
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Pigdog
The Pen ·
May 11
It research like this that provides hope that human ingenuity may supersede the baser instincts of our species, presently in ascendance.
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Reece commented May 11In reply thread
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Reece
Boston, MA ·
May 11
@Nancy Your story might be very real to you, but it doesn’t reflect how medical science works.
If a treatment really works, we should be able to see it working on large groups of people. We do trials to investigate how much something works. We don’t tell people if they’re getting a real treatment or a placebo to make sure the patients aren’t influencing their results by knowing about the treatment. We don’t tell the physicians either, so they don’t bias the numbers. That’s a double blind trial.
Stuff that really works shows an effect in that situation. Stuff that is a placebo doesn’t show an effect. It’s a great system.
Placebo doesn’t mean “it’s nothing” or “it’s all in your head.” Placebo effects are anything, any real thing, that are not specifically the treatment. Time with a doctor causes a real placebo effect. Motivation to get better is a real placebo effect. Time is a placebo effect. They’re all real, they all have benefit in some situations, but they are not (usually) the thing being tested.
Acupuncture has been tested against placebo in some well designed clinical trials, but the results are negative against placebo. The better the trial design, the more negative the result. That’s a sign that a treatment isn’t doing anything specific.
I’m not saying you didn’t get better after your acupuncture. I’m saying that we have good evidence that the benefit you experienced was from something other than the needles in meridian points.
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Anoop commented May 11In reply thread
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Anoop
Ny ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
Spot on! What we need is an article on critical thinking for journalists
Remember Homeopaths tell their treatment works via quantum mechanics.
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Boog commented May 11In reply thread
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Boog
Moab ·
May 11
@Kevin Fear of anything that challenges current belief systems is a trait in so many people. Leading them to deride without proof the perceived challenge. Thank goodness scientists, through rigorous testing methods, are not daunted but follow where the facts lead them.
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V. R. commented May 11In reply thread
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V. R.
New York ·
May 11
@Tony Exactly, I had 10 sessions of Rolfing and this treatment for pain changed a lot of things in my body. Rolfing is all about the fascia.
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EK commented May 11
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EK
Cleveland.OH ·
May 11
Yes. Let's finally get Western medicine believing in Eastern medicine. In my world, where several people have had several issues that Western medicine (and western trained doctors) have failed to solve, acupuncture has filled in those gaps. When doctors have thrown their hands up in the air and said, gosh, I don't know how to help you, acupuncturists have come forward and said, let's start here. In my personal experience, acupuncture is excellent at calming inflammation, and looking at the whole body-- treating the whole body as a system, rather than as pieces. And with this new discovery, it's so clear why that has been an effective approach, when Western medicine has failed. I feel so optimistic about this finding-- it's about time Western medicine finally expands their brains just a little bit.
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Anne commented May 11
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Anne
CT ·
May 11
Many people have been helped by acupuncture. It's nice to see Western medicine catching up.
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Jean Michelle commented May 11In reply thread
Jean Michelle
Jean Michelle
Wisconsin ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills
Agreed. Have you ever seen the NYTimes reviews of famous artist's paintings? It is the same format and it has literally opened up the world of fine arts to me (and I am assuming, to many). Good work NYTimes for these types of pieces.
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globe commented May 11
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globe
New York ·
May 11
I hope all the people who are so gung ho about tattoos start to understand that the inks and dyes migrate within to other lymphatic bodily systems. Not a holistic health habit though effects of the toxins may take some time to accumulate.
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SD commented May 11In reply thread
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SD
Earth ·
May 11
@Michael If you're using Chrome, choose Reading Mode from the settings. A side pane will open that just shows the text of the article.
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Bruce Freifeld commented May 11In reply thread
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Bruce Freifeld
Bronx, NY ·
May 11
@Alison Howard Right. And let's validate the questionable 'therapies' with more testimonials about how great such and such works. Indeed mostly placebo effect. Evidence based practice is necessary to validate any treatment modality. Sadly most of these so called therapies haven't.
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US_Prole commented May 11
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US_Prole
Pacific Northwest ·
May 11
An intriguing article - and truly wonderful illustrations & visualizations by Jėrôme Berthier. The mention at the end about parallels in botany made me think of recent work exploring the mycelial networks among fungi and trees.
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B. Honest commented May 11In reply thread
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B. Honest
Puyallup WA ·
May 11
@David
Sliding cartoons with too much scrolling needed kills a lot of stories I would have otherwise read, this one was important enough info I stuck through it but my hand hurts from having to scroll that much just for sentences.
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Gus commented May 11In reply thread
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Gus
Virginia ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen The baseline for a drugs efficacy in clinical trials is does it help 50% or more of patients, for some it can be even lower. Acupuncture may not work for everyone either, but there are some it definitely has helped.
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Concerned Citizen commented May 11In reply thread
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Concerned Citizen
america ·
May 11
@Data Analyst This is better phrased than any follow up I could have offered. Acupuncture is not born out in the literature. Sham acupuncture works as well as "real acupuncture" and evidence of efficacy vanishes the larger the sample size and more rigerous the study.
Many people offered an anecdotal reply here. And anecdotes are not evidence. The plural of anecdote is not evidence either. I'm happy that acupuncture made you feel better and that you think it's a valuable part of your routine. It is also pseodoscience that keeps trying to justify itself by moving the goalpost on falsifiability. Two things can simultaneously be true.
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Mark commented May 11
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Mark
idaho ·
May 11
Regarding the presentation format for this article, as with so many articles, opinions, essays, etc., IMHO, the first question (perhaps the second or somewhere thereabouts) is for the author(s) and editors to identify the target audience. That determines What is to be presented, and Why and How it is to be presented. In all of my writing, I ask myself What would I like readers to Do as a result of reading it? So as to readers' frustrations with the article's format, perhaps NYT could offer a hot-link to a text only version. In keeping with the article, it would serve as another circulation system. And, yes, although the comment is serious, the pun is intended.
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Steve commented May 11
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Steve
Sylmar, California ·
May 11
A very insightful article. The West is finally acknowledging a scientific basis for some Eastern treatments used for centuries.
Bringing the two philosophies together can only result in more positive treatmets and their outcomes for patients.
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D. L. commented May 11
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D. L.
Ann Arbor, Michigan ·
May 11
Bravo! What a wonderful mix of script and illustration in a two dimensional space!!
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Eric Olson commented May 11In reply thread
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Eric Olson
Middlebury, CT ·
May 11
@B The myofacial system has been important in my practice as an integrative orthopedic surgeon. After some injurie the facial system "holds the memory" in ways that the muscle tendon unit model does not explain, and after six weeks of healing the pain is still there. Talented myofacial release practitioners and massage therapists can gradually encourage healing and release of tension held in this fascial system. It is not yet taught in most medical schools nor orthopaedic residencies, but should be.
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keb commented May 11
k
keb
Az ·
May 11
Several months ago, I went to my Western trained PCP with severe hip pain. I had resigned myself to undergoing a hip replacement, but the doctor said no said no, and referred me to a massage therapist that specializes in manipulating the fascia.
Within seconds of placing her hands on my hip, the massage therapist said, “you’ve had abdominal surgery.” She could feel the fascia being pulled from the scar. She manipulated my fascia, and my pain was gone after the first treatment. I still go to her periodically for a tuneup. It made a believer out of me.
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Dao commented May 11
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Dao
Brooklyn ·
May 11
Trying to understand and judge Acupuncture from a western perspective is like trying to see in a darkened room with dark sunglasses on.
Can someone learn a completely new language by using their own language as a guide? Not really.
Just because it doesn’t fit your paradigm doesn’t mean it’s a sham.
Classical Chinese medicine predates “TCM” a still effective traditional Chinese Medicine interpretation brought about by Mao in China. The study of acupuncture is empirical, metaphorical and much more vast and complex than western medicine can even imagine. It can even incorporate different schools of practice within its own framework. I took courses in western medicine and pathology, anatomy and internal anatomy to work as a practitioner in a contemporary setting, as well as many courses in eastern medicine and philosophy that make up the basis of Classical Chinese medicine. We also learned the locations of more than 365 acupuncture points in the body. They exist in the spaces between bones, tendons, organs and blood vessels, so they have been mapped very carefully. I found it Vast and very humbling. Three years was really only an tiny introduction to thousands of years of knowledge!
Also- Ítalo Calvino wrote a beautiful short story called “Blood, Sea” which is a whimsical analysis of our evolution from sea creatures whose cells directly are in contact with saltwater to having an interior circulatory system to keep our cells hydrated and nourished.
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been there commented May 11
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been there
California ·
May 11
My medical school class learned about the interstitial spaces in 1982. We also learned about the lymphatics. I found this article unconvincing. So fluid moves from capillaries to interstitial spaces especially during states of capillary leak, and the low pressure lymphatic system picks it up and brings it back to the intravascular space. The interstitial spaces are always wet, so there is always some fluid in these spaces.
How is the process reported here new and different, in terms of western medicine?
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Smarmy commented May 11
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Smarmy
Miami, Fl ·
May 11
I'm glad we're finally beginning to understand, in a scientific sense, the efficacy of the ancient practices.
I hope this leads to further breakthroughs and understanding, and respect, of how our bodies function.
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Ruan commented May 11
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Ruan
Brooklyn, NY ·
May 11
Thank you for this brilliantly produced story: connecting the threads of recent Western research with the ancient systems of Chinese medicine! The graphics, clear and concise descriptions and far reaching connections between Western science and Chinese medicine are revelatory. Those of us who have been treated with acupuncture for years appreciate the wider audience this groundbreaking NYT story gives an under appreciated traditional practice.
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Susan F commented May 11In reply thread
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Susan F
Western Mass ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen Acupuncture worked for me on pain that was causing me to take too much ibuprofen (Advil), it was starting to affect my kidneys. I was able to go off ibuprofen altogether and see my kidney results improve.
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Blue Dot commented May 11
Blue Dot
Blue Dot
Blue Planet ·
May 11
WOW!
And unlike some commentators, I found the illustrations illuminating and beautifully rendered!
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Mary commented May 11
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Mary
Hartford Ct ·
May 11
I would have preferred the text all together and the cute but unnecessary graphics limited to the intro. They add nothing to the understanding of the information, and break the text up into tiny bites making one’s concentration jump all over. I get it, “digital media” and all that, but I find this type of presentation uninteresting and usually skip them, same for the mini ones with photos and arrows underneath. They promise interesting information, but deliver only paltry bites of the topic
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GrimW commented May 11
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GrimW
CA ·
May 11
Much ado about almost nothing? The notion that fluids move through this space rapidly enough to explain the claimed immediate effects of acupuncture is silly. Acupuncture fails basic requirements for objective measurement and repeatability. It doesn't work by nerve action, lymphatic movement or circulatory action, hence the effort to tie it to another system. A more reasonable conclusion is that it is mostly placebo, just like chiropractic.
Replies 4
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GFE commented May 11
GFE
GFE
New York ·
May 11
After reading complaints about the graphical presentation of this article, I have to respond.
I've found this sort of presentation annoying in the past, but in this instance the graphics were extremely helpful in clarifying the concepts presented in the text.
To those taking umbrage at, as they put it, being treated like "children who need picture books," I'd answer that it's an age-old truism that if you can't explain a concept clearly to a child, your own grasp of the concept might be lacking.
Additionally, as others have observed, there's wisdom in the ancient Chinese dictum: "One showing is worth a thousand words."
It might be that those who say they find it hard to read are being impaired by focusing on their annoyance instead of -- to use a phrase that suits the subject -- going with the flow.
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MAT commented May 11
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MAT
Portland, OR ·
May 11
in medical school we were taught that all kinds of molecules incessantly moved back and forth between cells and interstitial fluid/space. so a molecule can exit cell A, passing into the interstitium, and that same molecule can then enter cell B. I’m therefore wondering: “why is this so surprising?”
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Pat commented May 11
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Pat
Boston ·
May 11
This is why American science needs to be financially supported not gutted.
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Lyn commented May 11
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Lyn
Boston ·
May 11
As someone with a connective tissue disorder that is so misunderstood/ignored by mainstream medicine, I hope this research continues. Those of us suffering from Ehlers-Danlos syndrome understand first-hand how connected our bodies are and I for one hate how Western Medicine seems to chop us up in to different specialities without offering holistic care. We are not a sum of parts, it all works together.
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Donna Sink commented May 11In reply thread
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Donna Sink
Indiana ·
May 11
@Sidewalk50 Please remember that people digest information differently. For me, visual information is immediately and deeply understandable; the same information given only via text takes much longer for me to absorb. I loved this presentation.
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Alphonso Bedoya commented May 11In reply thread
A
Alphonso Bedoya
Meso-Connecticut ·
May 11
@C
“Medical textbooks are not ‘for children’ and yet they explicate concepts with imagery.”
But medical textbooks do not superimpose moving text onto moving graphics. One can have one separate from the other and still get the point across. In fact, many articles on this NY Times website do exactly that… to no detriment to communication.
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JoJo commented May 11
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JoJo
California ·
May 11
This article alone is worth the price of subscription. What a well written, well illustrated, and educational article.
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Al commented May 11
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Al
WA ·
May 11
How is this different than the concept of "third spacing" that I learned about in medical school in 1970? We learned that "body water" traveled freely through interstitial spaces, that fluid was not trapped anywhere but could thus circulate among all the tissues of the body.
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Rick commented May 11
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Rick
Boston ·
May 11
Maybe this does suggest support for “traditional medicine.” However, just because something has been around for a long time doesn’t necessarily make it legit. Astrology has been around a very long time and is still popular. But as far as I know, no good studies have ever shown any correlation with birth date and time and any personality traits or life events.
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DQuixote commented May 11
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DQuixote
LaMancha ·
May 11
I’m a Doc, so let’s be clear here. Any of us who have given injections, especially sub-Q injections like local anesthetics, Botox or steroids know full well that they tend to migrate across tissue species and so-called barriers.
I do not consider this a new discovery, just a mutated read on what WE know already.
Caveat emptor and GIGO.
Replies 1
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Cat Lady commented May 11In reply thread
C
Cat Lady
Midwest ·
May 11
@Alison Howard
Thanks for mentioning these other systems western medicine doesn’t acknowledge. I’ve had cranial sacral treatments in the past for tight muscles and fascia and in the hands of a talented practitioner it can be the therapy those of us chained to a desk desperately need.
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B commented May 11
B
B
D ·
May 11
The late John F Barnes, founder of MFR (myofascial release) method of hands-on/massage called this interstitial substance the “ground substance”.
Massage therapist and other body workers have known about this connection for a long time.
As a teacher of massage therapy, I talk often to my students about how, if modern western medicine, would acknowledge the “ground substance“
how it would change the way humans look at the body. And how anatomy books would have to be rewritten from that point on.
Replies 2
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RH commented May 11In reply thread
R
RH
Florida ·
May 11
@Deborah This absolutely happens. My husband got Lyme Disease. 1 course oral antibiotics. He still a had a ton of pain. Did a month of IV antibiotics. That was really rough. Still in pain. As a last ditch effort, knowing he didn't want and couldn't have, more antibiotics, he tried acupuncture. The pain disappeared.
We assume the antibiotics killed the active infection but the acupuncture helpedl his body heal from the residual damage.
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María commented May 11
M
María
WY ·
May 11
This has been known for more than 100 years...in "Western" medicine. The interstitium and how it is structured and functions is something we teach in veterinary schools, here are in most other countries. Perhaps if medical schools actually taught histology (microscopic anatomy), the researchers would not think of themselves as discoverers but simply as documenting the movement of ink through a known tissue.
As someone else commented, interesting about the meridians but, please, don't make this out to be a new discovery. Recommend the authors read any veterinary or human histology book, they'll find them illuminating.
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jtm commented May 11In reply thread
j
jtm
texas ·
May 11
@Cathy Thank you for creating this comment before I had a chance to do so.
This was a fascinating article but the the cartoons scrolling by in the background added nothing but disctraction.
Apparently, the NY Times believes its readers no longer have the attention span required to read articles created from text and interspersed with a few illustrations.
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Rhoda Hough commented May 11
R
Rhoda Hough
Ventura, CA ·
May 11
It would be great to be amped to get an easy-to-read non-graphic version of this story. The navigation is a bit annoying.
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adrienne goering commented May 11
a
adrienne goering
flint michigan ·
May 11
i seem to be in the minority - so i’m popping in the comments to say i loved the graphics. they definitely served the purpose of helping me visualize the content. thanks!
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Jen J. commented May 11
J
Jen J.
Texas ·
May 11
Beautifully designed and written article. The interactivity itself is a work of art, and I'll remember this article's purpose, content, and message far longer because of its multimodality. Thank you for this presentation!
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Lainie commented May 11
Lainie
Lainie
Southwest ·
May 11
First: When I try to save this article, I'm repeatedly asked to log in. When I go back to the article, somehow the login hasn't held. Fix this please?
I love this article and am amazed and delighted that these links are now evident and recognized. Mixed feelings on the graphics; they're very cool, but somewhat distracting/slowing (especially when you have to keep re-logging in). I like the idea of including a more traditional text option. Anyway. Meridians, chakras, and other energetic modalities didn't come from nowhere and they're not made up; they have ancient stories and wisdom behind them. It's about time Western medicine recognized that healing is multilayered and we haven't seen everything yet.
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Dianakmax commented May 11In reply thread
D
Dianakmax
Austin ·
May 11
@CB Absolutely! I am a nurse of over thirty years and kept thinking how wonderful visuals such as this could be utilized more in teaching! If someone wants a deep dive into the information I have no doubt a quick search would suffice.
I love when the Times provides articles with visuals!
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Amazing ! commented May 11
A
Amazing !
FL ·
May 11
This is incredible information come to light for western medicine & wellness. The West has been behind in terms of cause and prevention of disease & a bit linear and one dimensional in terms of treatments . Thank you for this article ! Excited to see what this discovery leads to
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Tim commented May 11In reply thread
T
Tim
Michigan, US ·
May 11
@C
But medical textbooks don't strain themselves to entertain the reader, as this article does.
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Boyd Crow commented May 11
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Boyd Crow
Los Osos, CA ·
May 11
A good article but I'm getting carpal tunnel syndrome scrolling through something can be done with text and static illustrations. I'm a "speed reader" and I've just sat through a grammar school "slide show".
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Tony commented May 11
Tony
Tony
Dallas, TX ·
May 11
This is an extraordinary article, revelatory, incisive and extremely valuable. It is also a validation of some of the basic ideas behind Chinese Medicine and acupuncture. Many years ago, a close family member had near debilitating pain after numerous abdominal surgeries, and the pain could not be managed well with medications/opiates. We consulted a Naturopathic physician who recommended acupuncture which worked extraordinarily well and allowed the patient to eliminate the use of pain medication entirely. Did we understand exactly how it worked. We did not. But maybe soon we will.
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Emme commented May 11
E
Emme
Colorado ·
May 11
This is how Continuous Glucose Monitors work. A small sensor is inserted just enough to reach the interstitial fluid. CGMs don’t measure glucose directly from blood, but from interstitial fluid. Because glucose moves from blood vessels into this fluid, CGMs can closely track blood sugar levels with a slight delay.
Replies 2
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kirk commented May 11
k
kirk
montana ·
May 11
This just shows the importance of keeping an open, inquisitive mind and following a line of inquiry that is not obvious.
Just more proof that the republican destruction of our basic research institutions as well as our international intellectual pursuits is not only ignorant but also stupid.
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MS commented May 11In reply thread
MS
MS
CA ·
May 11
@JAS It's more subtle than that. I'm a physician-scientist whose paternal ancestors were TCM practitioners and who spent time in China learning about TCM.
I think the methodology of Western medicine and science are superb. TCM does not isolate for example the exact molecules active in a herb. Mere observations can lead people down the wrong path, e.g. the placebo effect. However, Western med can learn and test the observations from Chinese med.
In practice, Chinese clinicians use both. My father would never recommend TCM for acute infections or for serious, acute orthopedic injuries for instance. He knew they wouldn't act fast enough or be effective in some situations. When my mom was pregnant, he found the best European-trained OB/GYN in the area to take care of her. In China, the clinics I visited in the early 2000s used both TCM and Western medicine. There was no hard dividing line. The Specialists on both sides referred to each other.
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Sam commented May 11
S
Sam
Ithaca, NY ·
May 11
This whole 'discovery' seems to be premised on a straw man argument that all the interstitial spaces in the human body were thought to be sealed off from each other. Did anyone seriously believe this? I'm ready to believe that many medical specialties have overlooked the importance of movement through (or restriction of movement through) interstitial tissue and progress could be made by paying more attention to it, but the thesis of this article goes way beyond that and seem a bit over sold to me.
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Dr. N commented May 11
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Dr. N
New York ·
May 11
Science and medicine and in fact every high school biology student has known about the "interstitium" for a long time; it is called the extracellular space
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Matt commented May 11
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Matt
Colo ·
May 11
Fascinating. I hope these scientists figure out some of the chronic diseases, like autoimmune diseases. I also hope the NYT keeps reporting on different science achievements and how they might impact everyone. Science has been battered lately and we can’t loose it.
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Vicki Jenssen commented May 11
V
Vicki Jenssen
Cape Breton Island ·
May 11
Vitamin C is the collagen builder, it is required for healthy bone maintainance and now we discover that the interstitium is made of collagen. To those nay-sayers that Vitamin C/ascorbic acid is only needed in a minimal way in primates (humans), think again. The government recommendations are a minimum, only enough to keep our teeth from falling out. Keep taking it!
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H. Clark commented May 11
H
H. Clark
Long Island, NY ·
May 11
This is beyond fascinating, and presented in a brilliant fashion by Times journalists, editors and graphic artists. It confirms that while mainframe computers and space stations may be intriguing, the most complicated and astounding entity on the planet is the human body. While we know so much about it, there are still new discoveries to be uncovered. THe interstitium is just one among them. Kudos to the intelligent minds who uncovered these revelations; it’s truly astounding!
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gk commented May 11
g
gk
Los Angeles ·
May 11
WOW.
(only 1 small point - I LOVE the graphics, but it would be great to get this as a straight text document)
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Tiffany Chow commented May 11
T
Tiffany Chow
La Jolla ·
May 11
Thank you for the animated illustrations! They clarify the different compartments discussed and keep the discussion human
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Michael Gordon commented May 11
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Michael Gordon
US of T ·
May 11
Thank you for this wonderful article and particularly for the marvelous accompanying illustrations
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TKarras commented May 11
T
TKarras
Brooklyn, NY ·
May 11
Wow, not only is this incredibly reported but the visuals enhanced the understanding and experience of watching/reading this. We need a new word for this type of article, just like we have a new circulatory system on the scene. Thank you!
Replies 1
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Christopher Elstner commented May 11
C
Christopher Elstner
Santa Barbara ·
May 11
I’m a physician and have spent many hours studying tissues. This new view of the greater view of the interstitium as not just unique to each area of tissue, but as a dynamic system that integrates all interstitial makes total sense. It enhances one’s view of the incredibly complex body immensely similar to our new understanding of how trees and plants talk to each other through their roots. This new view makes total sense and its relationship to chi is unmistakeable. Now if we could only get ourselves to look at our minds like we do tissues. In the west we do not simply take time to do a little meditation and just look at our minds and how they operate even on a banal daily schedule. If we do we will open up incredible avenues of how minds and bodies connect and operate and give us more understanding of who we are.
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ChrisMas commented May 11
C
ChrisMas
Sedona ·
May 11
This interesting but western-based article has parallels to Columbus “discovering” North America. Something that was, 1) already there, and 2) which others already knew about.
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NJH commented May 11
N
NJH
California ·
May 11
I'm happy to see western medicine is finally catching up to something known for centuries. I hope the medical field will put this information to good use and hopefully, insurance companies will acknowledge and cover 'alternative' medicine, aka: acupuncture.
Replies 1
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Steve Schild commented May 11
S
Steve Schild
Winona, Minnesota ·
May 11
This is a great reminder that we should always remain humble about what we (think we) know and always be willing to acknowledge how much we don't know.
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Adrianamo819 commented May 11
A
Adrianamo819
Los Angeles, CA ·
May 11
It would be interesting to see how this interstitial system relates to connective tissue disorders, such as Ehlers Danlos, lipedema, HSD, etc. They are already under-studied, but this opens up new possibilities.
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Werdna commented May 11
W
Werdna
Vancouver ·
May 11
We in the West have a massively inflated idea of our understanding of life force, and living systems. We have a medical system convinced that it is the only valid way of understanding the body and its systemic nature...In the East they have another much older understanding of how living systems work and we denigrate this knowledge because it does to adhere to the principles of Western Medicine. We fall captive to the idea that our way of thinking is superior to that of others until we are presented with evidence that cannot be hammered into the existing model. This is where we are now...on the brink of a complete new understanding of the human body. Fascia , long assumed to be useless tissue rather than the soft scaffolding of our bodies, is finally being recognized as an indispensable part of the system and this new information just adds to the body of proof that our way of thinking about health, and the use of chemical interventions like drugs with massive "side effects" is based on a woefully incomplete understanding. This can only be good news!
Replies 3
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Myma commented May 11
M
Myma
NC ·
May 11
Hardly new, and hardly newsworthy. I might be a chemist not a biologist, but the interstitial fluid and its importance has been known for a very long while. People who work on parenteral delivery of medicine via a needles have been studying this for a very long time. Wikipedia has had page since 2005.
I think this is another case of some clever professor renaming something cleverly to get clever press.
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Mark Kropf commented May 11
M
Mark Kropf
Long Island ·
May 11
The idea is important, but it should also be clear to most anybody.
While it is not thought out, many agents are placed into the skin to get some action beyond a tattoo.
People dose agents such as Insulin subcutaneously. I used that route to give many agents in my practice. People can believe that a hormone of Insulin's size merely gets into a lymphatic or a blood vessel, but it has to get to them first. The same thing is true for subcutaneous Heparin or more.
Doctors have known for a long time that immune cells move through the interstitium as antigen binding cells and as T cells. Ninety percent of the T-Cells in the body are in the skin. Why would they be there if they do not move through it and surveil within it?
A Nature article from back in 2018: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-23062-6
The interstitium was certainly considered to be an active avenue of traffic by me back in my Medical School days in the 1970s. It has been ignored, but we deal with the interstitium a good deal in Medicine and mostly otherwise ignored it.
Is it an organ? I doubt that, but it is important. Much as a roadway is not a house, a roadway remains important. Interstitial function is like a roadway. It is a communication network. Perhaps you can define it as an organ, but inasmuch as it is the general connection, I believe the roadway is a much better metaphor for its function!
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Kate commented May 11
K
Kate
Canada ·
May 11
Much of our science (and economic models too) have an intrinsic bias toward externalizing, simplifying and separating things that are, in fact, fundamentally connected. I am always pleased when research emerges with findings that shine a light on that bias. For me personally, this makes sense intuitively, and jibes with much of my experience in managing inflammation and chronic connective tissue pain after a couple of serious injuries.
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Ξυνόπυρος commented May 11
Ξ
Ξυνόπυρος
Σαν Φρανσίσκο ·
May 11
Wonderful. This is why the Times is so important. Unless one is a scientist reading this in a medical journal, this would remain mostly hidden from the rest of the population. And it is absolutely astonishing. The presentation is fantastic.
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L commented May 11
L
L
Ct. ·
May 11
Interesting article about this so-called new science! Great that the tools of discovery "prove" the science. But the article sure gives short shrift to osteopathy's 150-year-old understanding of just about everything in the article -- and osteopathy's profound clinical applications of that understanding. Osteopathy's knowledge comes from systematic cadaveric dissection — osteopaths have been hands-on in anatomy labs, observing fascial continuity and the relationships between tissues directly;
palpatory clinical experience — generations of practitioners developing and refining a tactile understanding of how tension, fluid, and restriction transmit through the body's connective tissue; a coherent theoretical framework built on structured anatomical and physiological hypothesis derived from observation
That's the same epistemological foundation as much of conventional medicine — observation and reproducible findings. If anything, the interstitium story is a reminder that the tools of mainstream science can lag behind what skilled human observation has already detected.
Replies 1
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Artie commented May 11
A
Artie
Honolulu ·
May 11
Yes, my reaction is also,"duh." The meridian system in traditional Chinese medicine is widely known, but ignored by arrogant Western medicine.
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Imaikalani commented May 11
I
Imaikalani
Hawaii ·
May 11
Taiwan’s medical system has a two track system that I always thought was brilliant. Taiwan’s socialized medical system which is affordable, and where all citizens are covered, has a two track system, Western and Chinese medicine—both equally covered by the system. Have a bad cold that won’t go away? Go see your western trained doctor for your packet of pills. Have lingering carpal tunnel syndrome? Head to your traditional Chinese for long term treatment for a mix of accupuncture and a hot press of a paste of Chinese medicinal herbs. Taiwan knows what’s up!
Recommend 26
Eric commented May 11
E
Eric
California ·
May 11
There is nothing new about the interstitium. It has been known about for a very long time and taught to every doctor and biomedical researcher. How else would anything get from the bulk of the tissue to the circulatory and lymphatic systems if interstitial transport didn't occur? And people have been studying cancer cells migrating through the interstitial space for years. The only thing that is particularly novel here is that researchers are increasingly realizing just how quickly and far stuff can travel through the interstitial space and how important it can be for health. This is seen by many as particularly important in the central nervous system, where it is called the glymphatic system.
Replies 2
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suzanne northcott commented May 11
s
suzanne northcott
Langley, BC, Canada ·
May 11
Thank you. Fascinating article made infinitely more vivid through Jerome Berthier's inspired representation.
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Trailwalker commented May 11
T
Trailwalker
USA ·
May 11
Excellent article! Let's hope the merging of East and West knowledge continues. However, I shake my head in quiet, utter annoyance at the comic-book style presentation. (I'm especially grateful to the commenter who described how to avoid the unhelpful scrolling required, e.g., through one's browser, such as the address-box 'reader view' icon in Firefox). I request the NYT place a 'reader view' button on these types of articles to help those who have left their comic book years behind.
Replies 1
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Irene K commented May 11
I
Irene K
NYC ·
May 11
I hope that based on this, and further research, Medicare will expand their coverage of acupuncture. That could potentially help thousands of people -- and ultimately save money if after acupuncure treatment, those helped no longer need expensive, invasive treatments.
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Esly Caldwell commented May 11
E
Esly Caldwell
Cincinnati, OH ·
May 11
This is a great article and visual!
I have been an acupuncturist for 17 years and the "interstitium" is a great way to conceptualize Qi and meridians.
I'm thrilled that the NYT is starting to publish more open minded and well researched work on acupuncture.
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Adam commented May 11
A
Adam
VA ·
May 11
Interesting piece! As a practitioner of tai chi, I didn’t know what chi was physically. As a scientist, I wish the NY Times and other news sources would provide the full citations for published research.
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bamhoward commented May 11In reply thread
b
bamhoward
Scotland ·
May 11
@Ann Hocevar It would be nice if we were given an option to read the piece with or without the animation, which I find unhelpful in most cases. This one was nearly all blank for me due to low bandwidth.
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Surprise me commented May 11
S
Surprise me
Stockholm ·
May 11
Good on them. What my chiropractor Dr Lasnesky has always understood and treated his patients by and within. First, Do no harm…. so glad the medical establishment can dig it now.
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CarolinaJoe commented May 11In reply thread
C
CarolinaJoe
NC ·
May 11
@SharBrem
Because scientists, however open minded, approach any problem with a dose of skepticism.
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N.G. Krishnan commented May 11
N
N.G. Krishnan
Bangalore ·
May 11
This fascinating report highlights the "fragility" of our previous anatomical certainties.
We have spent centuries cataloging the body as a collection of parts, yet we have missed the very network that connects them.
In Ayurveda, health is defined by the free flow of Rasa (plasma/fluid) through micro-channels; any stagnation leads to imbalance.
By identifying the interstitium, modern science is effectively translating ancient wisdom into the language of collagen and fluid dynamics.
It is a necessary step toward an integrative medicine that respects both the "lightning speed" of technological progress and the deep, historical roots of human biology
Recommend 25
DavidG commented May 11
D
DavidG
MD ·
May 11
I went to medical school in the US in the 1970s. The concept of interstitial spaces and interstitial fluid as a pathway for migration of fluids and cells was known and taught back then. It was assumed that the interstitial pathway was too slow and inefficient compared to the lymphatic and circulatory systems to have any more than a localized effect on health and disease.
While the concept is not new, the potential implications may be much greater than previously conceived. Time and a good deal more research will tell.
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Heidi commented May 11
H
Heidi
California ·
May 11
I had a Chinese acupuncture doctor for 25 years. She got me through menopause without any symptoms. She healed my frozen shoulder. After 3 weeks I had full range of motion again. When I broke my right ribcage with a punctured lung, she boosted up my healing and my western doctor asked for her phone number. There was so much more she did for me. I miss her dearly.
Replies 1
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patton commented May 11In reply thread
p
patton
Fort Collins CO ·
May 11
@Sarah. I am stunned by your accusation of hubris. The article connects the two traditions rather than denigrating one of them as has been done so much in the past. Your final comments about interconnectedness echo what is in the article and in many recent scientific discussions. Let's be pleased with new conciliations rather than be quick to continue old hostilities.
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Blue State commented May 11In reply thread
B
Blue State
I vote ·
May 11
@New Eyes
Brennan’s book is fascinating! Thank you for mentioning it.
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Pluto commented May 11
P
Pluto
NJ ·
May 11
Thnk you for this article. The big question that pops into mind is: So what else science does not know?
Also, can we be humble enough to acknowledge that we don’t know everything and actually pursue the other medicines with genuine curiosity rather than active contempt?
We might learn more and sooner and wouldn’t have to wait 400 years to rediscover what the ancients knew for 4000!
Replies 2
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Jenny Justice commented May 11
J
Jenny Justice
Durham, NC ·
May 11
Wonderful reporting, thank you. If you wish to be even more amazed, read up on the Hindu/Sufi philosophy of non-dual Kashmir Shavism that developed in India in the early middle ages - it describes this "newly discovered" circulatory system beautifully, and in great detail. Amazing.
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E commented May 11In reply thread
E
E
Los Angeles ·
May 11
@Sarah Absolutely agree. Well said.
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espe commented May 11
e
espe
New York ·
May 11
I wish so much that there was a link directly to a readable essay and not the mandatory sequence of flashy image transitions...
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Allyn commented May 11
A
Allyn
NY to CRica ·
May 11
Western Medical Industrial Complex routinely dismisses or ignores proven forms of healing and intervention from other cultures. Accupuncture. Ayurveda. Chiropractic. Ancient plant Medicine. - and much more. These are NOT "Fads"! They've worked for billions of people over the history of our planet. How can researchers /scientists work from a base assumption that our bodies systems (like ALL living things on planet earth) are NOT interconnected and integrated? Indeed, such integration is what "Life" in all forms is. Scientific proof is a bonus and should be rigorisly pursued. Outright dimissal, disrespect and ignorace of other proven therapies from cultures other than our "Pharma-Yah-Yahs" is counterproductive.
Replies 1
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Greg McVerry commented May 11
G
Greg McVerry
San Francisco ·
May 11
Fantastic article. I am always amazed when an apt analogy makes something super complex more understandable for a slow brain like me. The chicken wire in gel bit? Better than 1,000 words.
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Free Thinker commented May 11
F
Free Thinker
Massachusetts ·
May 11
It's wonderful that Western medicine is catching up to a venerable Asian medical practice, and it's encouraging that Western researchers are finding materialist explanation for how the interstitial system works. But let's remember that acupuncture -- and tai chi and qigong and other Asian energy healing modalities -- are not strictly materialist. There's a spiritual component. Qi (or "chi," as the NY Times article calls it) is vital life-force. The secular-materialist West denies this, but it's the next great step: realizing that the human body is not merely physical, but deeply integrated with mind and spirit as well.
Replies 1
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Randy D commented May 11
R
Randy D
South Korea ·
May 11
I tried acupuncture for the first time in 2006 out of desperation to reduce extreme shoulder pain from a bicycle accident despite my “rationalist” western attitudes. I gained dramatic relief after three treatments. Then it helped me manage extreme pain from repeated kidney stones. Then I moved to Korea where it regularly helps me with pain reduction and has provided my only reduction in tinnitus. I’m still a rational thinker, but my thinking includes appreciating the usefulness of acupuncture for pain reduction but not necessarily full cures. By the way, at a small fraction of the cost of medical care in the U.S.
Replies 1
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Dale commented May 11
D
Dale
MidWest ·
May 11
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs.
While I'm reminded of the extreme skepticism of having bacteria be a cause of gastric ulcers promoted and proven a few years later, I am not at all convinced from the glitzy illustrations that there is anything more than lymphatic type flows.
Since a great number of acupuncture treatments fail (personal and reports from those who've sought out treatment from that type of practitioners) to all of a sudden jump on the bandwagon of a third system of circulation seems a bit premature.
Does water flow through the grasses in a pasture after a storm? Yes. Is this proof of a new or hidden system of streams and creeks? No, there are far more likely explanations.
Like all of science, independent and rigorous study of a newly reported phenomenon will bring clarity to the subject. The length of time and few researchers pursuing this evaluation tends to be a bit concerning as too the validity rather than a loose association with tattoo dye spreading.
If body fluids did NOT return via the closed vascular system and the lymphatics, we'd all we swollen up like the Pillsbury Dough Boy.
Before we get all excited, let skeptical researchers agree there is something here.
Replies 2
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PNW commented May 11In reply thread
PNW
PNW
PNW ·
May 11
@Michelle
The Chinese made use of the system without figuring out its underlying structure. This research describes a new discovery.
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CB commented May 11
C
CB
NY ·
May 11
Borrowing this on a friend's device, after a strong recommendation to read this. I hope for more follow-up.
Observation: so many of the responders so sharp in their comments. Are we in a culture where we must poke out the eye of someone or virtually of something to feel we are heard?
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Thacher commented May 11In reply thread
T
Thacher
Canton, NY ·
May 11
@Prof Reader You nailed it, Prof Reader. Some of the graphics are not just "more decorative" -- they are pointless. But others of the graphics helped me a great deal. This may be so individualized that the graphics designer on this article will hear a huge variety of reactions regarding which felt "pointless" and which felt "substantive." But I bet there's a lot of overlap! Still, the content of the article shone through. What a world we live in! I loved this so much. (in spite of the scrolling through pointless tree roots, lol).
Recommend 23
no commented May 11In reply thread
n
no
pa ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen acupuncture "works" and you're starting your argument from an incorrect assumption that isn't a fact at all.
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M D commented May 11
M
M D
new orleans ·
May 11
Well done! Great commentary coupled with illuminating illustrations! Thank you.
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PK2NYT commented May 11
P
PK2NYT
Sacramento ·
May 11
Very good article, not only for its informative content but also the graphic depiction of the discovery, that showed how the interstitium network integrates within the known circulatory systems in a human body.
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Jay commented May 11
J
Jay
Los Angeles ·
May 11
This information has been around since the 1980s. Subcutaneous interstitial fluid pressure during external loading
by N. P. Reddy,V. Palmieri, andG. V. Cochran
American Journal of Physiology-Regulatory, Integrative and Comparative PhysiologyVolume 240, Issue 5
1981 May 01
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KS Transplant commented May 11In reply thread
K
KS Transplant
Here And Now ·
May 11
@CB yes! I agree. Not everyone sees or learns the same way. I have been a bodyworker for 30 years, heave studied the fascia and interstitial system. This is one of the simplest examples and useful tool for educating clients.
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B commented May 11In reply thread
B
B
PA ·
May 11
@NG you may be right. But the fact that most major insurance companies pay for treatment leads me to believe it must have some scientific backing.
Replies 2
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Jeanne commented May 11
J
Jeanne
NorCal ·
May 11
In recent years I and a group of like-minded retired women have been gathering each week for an hour-long session of the ancient practice of QiGong. All have noticed positive changes in health from this gentle practice which focuses on the movement of Qi within and throughout our bodies.
This article and graphic illustration of the movement of fluids through the interstices will enhance my knowledge and QiGong practice.
Thank you.
Peace. Love. Compassion
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Nic Fulton commented May 11In reply thread
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Nic Fulton
Sydney ·
May 11
@NYC xrays pass through the body and are detected on the other side. A contrast agent blocks the xrays to increase the details / contrast of some target. Flourescence is a physical process where a chemical absorbs a photon in a certain energy range and the emits a photon at a lower energy. The most common we see in everyday are materials we call flourescent than absorb UV light and emit in the visible spectrum. Flouroscopy does not use flourescence for the detection. It used to use flourescence in the screen that was viewed. This is a very different type of imaging.
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Nadia Nagib Wallace commented May 11In reply thread
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Nadia Nagib Wallace
Seattle ·
May 11
@Tim Well said. In other words, hello!
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J commented May 11In reply thread
J
J
Philadelphia, PA ·
May 11
@JAS And they wonder why "half of U.S. adults under 50... take wellness guidance from online influencers instead" of "medical professionals" (see another article from today). Real dermatologists failed me; influencer nutritionists saved me. I hate the woo-woo but sometimes woo-woo actually works and we just don't quite understand why yet.
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Q commented May 11
Q
Q
Atlanta ·
May 11
The acupuncture felt like a reach. It contained no hypothesis of a mechanism. Correlation is not causation and here even the correlation was weak. If we weren't so inundated with fake science as it is this wouldn't be so disconcerting. I don't think we need more confusion between good science and bad.
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Chloe commented May 11In reply thread
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Chloe
DE ·
May 11
@Joe Bob Jones
Hi, so this actually isn't true. While the fundamentals of acupuncture, like much of modern science, are rooted in the supernatural, it has actually been scientifically proven to work. In other words, it doesn't "work because we want it to," but rather the needles stimulates the nerves to release neuro-chemicals such as endorphins and serotonin that actually do help with symptoms. This research IS actually backed up by science. There was one article put out by the Harvard Medical School that I found particularly insightful! I encourage you to check that out.
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Ruthie commented May 11
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Ruthie
California ·
May 11
I think that the visuals and construction of the article is beautiful - but sometimes I just want to read static text without needing to wait for pieces of the article to load. Is this possible? Thank you.
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Elmer commented May 11In reply thread
E
Elmer
Sea of Tranquility ·
May 11
@Data Analyst thanks for adding a voice of reason to these comments.
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AMRMSY commented May 11
A
AMRMSY
N FL ·
May 11
This is fascinating!!!
A few years ago I was really out of shape, depressed, it was the pandemic, yadda yadda. I got extremely bad plantar fasciitis. I tried everything to fix it, but western medicine was very focused on symptoms (cortisone shots, icing it nightly) and I was obsessed with a 'cure.'
I found a medical journal paper that suggested the traditional Chinese medicine treatment for plantar fasciitis, Gua Sha, was the only thing that a western podiatrist had seen that would actually 'cure' PF, but most Americans doctors are very hesitant to expect their patients to 'treat' themselves daily at home without a pill etc.
I bought books, watched videos, bought the gua sha tool, and cured my fasciitis in a matter of a week. Improvements were seen almost immediately. I have since gotten acupuncture a number of times. As an 'evidence' minded person, it always bugged me that I was getting treatments that weren't fully understood by science. I had read enough research to know that acupuncture shows effectiveness even in double-blind studies, but I am really glad the *why* is being understood. TCM can have a very new-age vibe, but if more people adopted its practice I suspect we would all be much healthier.
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Pigeon commented May 11
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Pigeon
NYC ·
May 11
Please, these visually appealing articles are a nightmare for people who are low vision! Is there a way to get the text only version, to use screen readers on? Please take this seriously.
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Susannah commented May 11
S
Susannah
Portland, OR ·
May 11
It's not just Chinese Medicine or the Eastern world, Western bodyworkers and manual therapists have been leveraging fascia to reduce pain by creating more balance and reducing compensatory patterns in people for a very long time. Osteopathy was originally centered on Craniosacral Therapy and Visceral Manipulation and both of these disciplines work with fascia very directly. Craniosacral therapy has roots in American Indigenous healing practices, and they deserve credit for that as well. More modern bodies of work that deal with the Interstitium directly are the work of Ida Rolf (from which Rolfing and Structural Integration were born), Tom Myers (devised fascia lines through a book and educational series called "Anatomy Trains" that has become a newer approach to structual integration.) The work of Gil Hedley. an anatomist or cadaver researcher - show the truths of fascia in his dissections, which don't require looking up. He's worked with bodies pre and post-mortum, documenting patterns that he can then verify in their fascia as cadavers. He and other raw cadaver researchers (and witnesses to these dissections) can trace a scar into the body by the density of fibers it creates and can track it as a line with more tensile strength than the tissue around it, all the way across the body, sometimes interfering with other structures. There are many more contributors in the US to this, but this is a good start.
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RL commented May 11
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RL
Indiana ·
May 11
Every time I’ve had a medical problem I can’t figure out, acupuncture has helped beyond measure. At the very least, I’ve always figured it is so relaxing that that alone is helping fight inflammation, but this info about qi meridians and interstitial pathways lining up really seems like a profound Western medical explanation for what might be happening and why acupuncture is so effective.
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Sherry commented May 11In reply thread
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Sherry
NYC ·
May 11
@Giovanna Disagree - Eastern medicine as the article says is based off of 4000 years of experience and data too - it's just not the type of data acceptable under Western/white standards. There is an ethnocentrism at play - hence the dichotomy, in terms of linguistics, between what we call Eastern and Western medicine, and why we think they are in opposition to one another.
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Pierre commented May 11
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Pierre
Paris ·
May 11
This issue is quite un-scientific, mixing hearsay, hard science, sparse data (or no data at all), popular "wisdom", and so on. I was longing since page 2, for the Chinese master delivering his "I told you we did it since Lao Tse", and it came.
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A D commented May 11
A
A D
The Moon ·
May 11
I find it refreshing that the end result of human self-awareness is not the discovery of Who we are -- but What we are. We awaken to consciousness inside a very organic, self-regulating set of ancient processes. And we clearly still have a long way to go in comprehending what it is we are actually comprised of, and how the body manages to "work".
Articles like this are testimonies to why we need to Fund Science
-- instead of the current trend of making flippant, performative, haphazard cuts to research.
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judy75007 commented May 11
j
judy75007
Jupiter florida ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating. More articles like this
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MP commented May 11
MP
MP
PA ·
May 11
I enjoyed reading article, but it harps annoyingly on a binary division between modern/Western and ancient/Eastern medicine. It would appear that there are lots of modern, scientific Chinese researchers who have been exploring these connections for some time. The article cites 2019 and 2021 Chinese studies that appear to have been exploring these very issues, and I have no doubt that there are plenty more. Just because scientists in the West can't or won't pay attention to modern Eastern scientists doesn't mean that Eastern science is eternally trapped in its ancient past. Maybe we would have "discovered" the interstitium sooner had we been more aware of the work of modern science in the non-Western world.
And things like Covid denialism and vaccine scepticism show us that plenty of Westeners believe deeply in non-scientific ideas. Blind faith is as modern and Western as apple pie.
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Joe commented May 11
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Joe
Missourah ·
May 11
What an absolutely amazing article!
The Western World Medical breakthrough explained and illustrated magnificently .
One of the best NYTimes articles I have ever read
Bravo !! This “ breakthrough” is significant.
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VSX commented May 11
V
VSX
NJ ·
May 11
What is this article trying to convey at the end of the day? That we have discovered yet another mechanism in the body that may be related to acupuncture? This article could and ought to have been written with clear English summary sentences. All these pictures and a novel like build up to the story frankly took away from the required lucidity in the narrative.
PS: are the pictures representative or just art work? For instance the picture the accompanied meridian flows of acupuncture are they representing actual meridians or just artist’s imagination? The article should have clearly called it out.
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Craig commented May 11
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Craig
California ·
May 11
This is both interesting and worthwhile. Regardless, (no insult intended to the authors) the animation, while clever, was both distracting and consumed additional bandwidth and electricity. At the scale of at least a few thousand readers, that's considerable waste with minimal benefit, when a few static images could have accomplished the same thing. I'd appreciate the option of eliminating the animation and just reading the article.
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Allen Craig commented May 11In reply thread
Allen Craig
Allen Craig
NYC/BKK/SF/BOG/TANZ ·
May 11
@Jorge This article doesn't represent "our world". The NYTimes is quite famous for their skilled use of graphics to enhance meaning in their stories. Is it really that hard to simply scroll and read without letting yourself get distracted by these rather calm visuals?
People can't maintain focus anymore and want the world to accommodate their desires. THAT'S what the world is really coming to.
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nono boy commented May 11
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nono boy
Lost Wages, NV ·
May 11
Journalism like THIS is why I'm a Times reader. Kudos and thank you.
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Rob commented May 11
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Rob
Atlanta ·
May 11
I wish the article had included some discussion of the efficacy of acupuncture. Instead, we just get the usual "it's been practiced for 4,000 years" stuff, which feels like a way of skirting the efficacy discussion.
Other than that -- it's a fascinating read, greatly enhanced by the graphics.
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Maryann commented May 11
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Maryann
Seattle ·
May 11
Certain bodywork traditions have been on to this for years. As well as certain scientists.
For anyone wanting to learn more, for the "macro" issues, read "Anatomy Trains" by Thomas Myers, who began his career decades ago with Ida Rolf, and has evolved her work and expounded on the science of connective tissue for practitioners but is very accessible writing for anyone interested.
For the "micro" perspective, there's "The Rainbow and the Worm" by Mae Wan Ho, a challenging scientific treatise.
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MGJ commented May 11
M
MGJ
East Village ·
May 11
I LOVE this presentation! I love that it engages more parts of my brain than the part that is decoding literacy and connecting to funds of knowledge. The colors, the shapes, the animation combined with text: Awesome! It's a kind of storytelling that doesn't diminish as we get older.
Also: I listened to the Radiolab episode about the interstitium a few years ago while doing the dishes and was gob-smacked as the drama of their discovery unfolded. And I loved discovering that despite all the competition for my attention that happens all day long, including my inner "should's" and "ought to's" that invade daily life, that my listening faculties were still intact and primed for awe.
Here's to the many ways we make sense of our world and the many ways we can describe and share our ways of knowing with each other!
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Dave commented May 11
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Dave
Hinterlands ·
May 11
discovered is a funny term, like they discovered america only it was called something else and millions were already there
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John J. commented May 11In reply thread
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John J.
Portland, OR ·
May 11
@NG disagree. A dozen years ago I suffered a back injury where my pain was most days an 8.5 on a 1-10 scale. I had many appointments with "regular / Western" medicine and doctors that could not give me relief, much less a cure except for intense pain meds (opiates) which I refused. I suffered for months before a friend suggested I try acupuncture.
After 3 visits I couldn't believe the relief I was feeling. I went 3 more times and have not needed to return and have been pain free since.
Over the years I've had multiple friends and family report similar positive results for various ailments. If you don't want to call acupuncture medicine, that's fine, but it definitely isn't "theater and pseudoscience" or RFK Jr MAHA kookiness, it's real and it heals.
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Sonya commented May 11
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Sonya
Sydney ·
May 11
Brilliantly told and illustrated! Wonderful wonderful. I really loved and appreciated this new insight. Rarely do I read articles and think: ok let me note the authors. Congratulations to artists and the whole team.
A small but conceptually massive note: “For 400 years, anatomists have understood there to be two systems in the body”. Please correct this to say “western anatomists” and also please adjust mentions of a discovery or something else….? A realisation ? Look, I never do this and call out cultural blah blah BUT we risk ignoring 4000 years of Chinese medicine. Also please can we not call it traditional Chinese medicine ? We need a better word for it. In real life it’s combined and it’s informing contemporary practices.
I am also personally ashamed that westerners like myself have swallowed the idea that most traditional Chinese medicine is anything but peer reviewed published research. It is not, it is a deeply documented system that’s been added to for thousands of years.
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Ross commented May 11In reply thread
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Ross
Sydney ·
May 11
@James it works for me and has, regularly, for more than 30 years across a range of conditions. As has conventional medicine. Using a mix of both where their strengths lie has been my personal approach.
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Kevin commented May 11
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Kevin
Connecticut ·
May 11
This bodily system doesn’t prove a thing about acupuncture, and linking the two only reinforces belief in acupuncture pseudoscience.
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Debra commented May 11
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Debra
Midwest ·
May 11
As a person who lives with several autoimmune diseases ( Lupus, RA & Sjögren’s Syndrome) this is so good to hear! I additionally have an autoimmune blood disorder called “Antiphospholipid Syndrome,” seen more times than not with rheumatological autoimmune conditions. My hopeful side says that this discovery of another system for western research will fuel more research and studies, which seems it could really help in a big way fluid related diseases, which Sjögren’s Syndrome is one such disorder.
Acupuncture has helped millions with these diseases and others, not curing them, but calming inflammation, thereby reducing pain. For many of us who’ve had acupuncture over the past decades for pain control knows it worked, but it did not cure.
Unfortunately, many had to deal with chuckle at the sharing of having an acupuncture session, only to regret sharing when we were questioned relentlessly on it being unsafe and a hoax.
I have noticed hospitals adding long practiced foreign healing practices, only I’m not sure if it was that they truly accepted complimentary medicine, or if it affected the collective ego of western medicine and their bottom line. They too, were highly suspicious or against complimentary medicine that knew about the second system. It didn’t stop millions of Americans who were adding complimentary medicine to their schedule. Many of us can thank Dr. Andrew Weil and Dr. Mark Hyman to name a few, who believed in the 2nd system & taught us all about it.
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BeDoHave commented May 11In reply thread
B
BeDoHave
phila pa ·
May 11
@Common Tater Western medicine is good for acute things like strokes and heart attacks. Chinese medicine is better for the systemic, long term chronic conditions that casue strokes and heart attacks.
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Joao Borba commented May 11
Joao Borba
Joao Borba
Curitiba Brazil ·
May 11
My Brazilian grandfather studied in Switzerland and, already fluent in five languages, lived in Washington, D.C. during the 1910s and 20s, where he married my American grandmother. My grandfather treated tuberculosis at a homeopathic clinic in South Carolina in 1926. American homeopathy was a world reference, taught at Harvard, until it was considered quackery in the 1950s and banned in the country. Today, India is a reference with a medical system many times cheaper than the American one. Western medicine needs more knowledge and more humility.
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Time commented May 11
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Time
Place ·
May 11
absolutely awesome article. Do we have an option of simply reading the text?
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B Dawson commented May 11In reply thread
B
B Dawson
Commonsense, USA ·
May 11
@FCP
You start your comment by admitting you “have not read the article yet” and then go on to criticize at least one of its points. Which is it?
Also, practitioners prefer “complementary or integrative medicine” to “alternative”. Few that I know consider themselves an alternative but rather a part of the healing arts. Some are even in practice with MDs to provide the best possible care for their patients. That’s a truly holistic approach.
As is all too often common with Western medicine, an attempt to validate a negative image uses extreme views as examples, in this case also political ones. I wonder how you feel now about Dr. Blalock, who pioneered heart surgery in the 40s. At the time of his experiments, the heart was off limits to doctors (Noli Tangere if my Latin holds), considered sacred in the most religious sense. Dr. Blalock went against all known science and created a bypass to cure Blue Baby Syndrome, aided by Vivian Thomas, a Black man with no medical training but an incredible mind.
What is today dismissed as unprovable is only so because we haven't found the language or the methods to explain it.
In the words of my freshman year physical anthropology Prof: “There are not capital “T” truths in biology, only little “t” truths. And those are only true until someone proves them false”.
Much of our knowledge has come from those who opened their mind to explore new things even in the face of the establishment dismissing them as quacks.
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Veronica Monet commented May 11
V
Veronica Monet
Grass Valley, CA ·
May 11
Fascinating! Love how this research was presented in this article too! Entertaining and pleasing to the eye and the imagination. I have found great value in acupuncture over the years. Gaining a window into how it may be working its magic is satisfying and I imagine there remain mysteries yet to be uncovered, particularly around the concept of chi. For now, science remains focused on physical matter but at some point I predict we will start to train our research on the electric/energetic aspects of existence too.
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Zebra commented May 11
Z
Zebra
San Francisco ·
May 11
The implications for hypermobile Ehlers Danlos treatment, stigma and care are profound. People with hEDS have been researching and talking about fascia for years and this research is validating.
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A Voice for Alternative Thoughts commented May 11
A
A Voice for Alternative Thoughts
So USA ·
May 11
Simply stated - SUPERB!
Bridging the gap between East and West in something so critical to human health as the basics of how our human systems work is a Major Step Forward for all mankind and even for other animals, especially other primates.
PURE KUDOS to the entire team which put this together.
This work does cause me to ponder the effects all the tattoos that some places all over their bodies and what it does to their long term health. Could all that dye have long term side effects or even have effects on the offsprings of those with many tattoos??
Please keep this type journalism ALIVE!
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Molly commented May 11
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Molly
Colorado ·
May 11
Thank you for this article bringing this to mainstream discussion and also particularly for the incredibly beautiful visuals that really enhance the information. Well done!
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Barney commented May 11
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Barney
Port Townsend ·
May 11
A fascinating and important report.
But it’s yet another example of NYT and other media getting carried away with annoying and unnecessary visual gimmicks.
It’s as if this approach is an attempt to win back the limited attention spans of people addicted to TikTok, Facebook, etc. What about people with less than perfect vision or carpal tunnel syndrome?
When reading something like this, it’s more difficult to flip back and forth among “pages” when you’re trying to absorb all the information.
A text-only option isn’t helpful; there should be an option that presents the text and graphics in a layout like that traditional but now less appreciated media: books. You know, where you’re allowed to see more than one nugget of information at a time, and can quickly and easily find what you want to understand and remember.
Every reader’s time is valuable.
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Deb commented May 11
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Deb
Atlanta ·
May 11
Finally tattoos have been found to benefit mankind somehow. I never saw the value or appeal of them.
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On the other hand commented May 11
O
On the other hand
Canada ·
May 11
Very interesting article, though I didn't like the format. When I was in medical school in the late 50s-early 60s we learned about the interstitial spaces where, in fact, capillaries ended and in some cases there was an exchange, in those spaces, between venous and arterial capillaries. So it's fascinating, after all these years, to discover that those seemingly passive spaces have a big role to play. The obvious conclusion is that Western medicine has been somewhat arrogant in ignoring other medical systems. A recent NYT article discussed extreme pressure applied to the face to "transform' it. Seems to me that this technique works by moving the hyaluronic acid in the interstitial spaces.
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penchild commented May 11
p
penchild
Port Townsend, WA ·
May 11
A powerful article! I had always dismissed Chinese Medicine as a form of quackery! Now here is an explaination.
I don't have a science background,however I am an artist. The astoundingly lovely presentation made it easier for me to understand the concepts! Thank you NYT.
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T. Myers commented May 11
T
T. Myers
Lexington, MA ·
May 11
I would love to see us bodyworkers included in the conversation about fascia and it's interconnectedness. Many of us have been involved with this for decades.
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Karen commented May 11
Karen
Karen
Nevada ·
May 11
Wonderful graphic presentation! Do more of these, please.
My reaction to this new knowledge and possible linkage with ancient Eastern medicine? I remember the biblical quote that "We are fearfully and wonderfully made"---fearfully in the sense of reverent and mysterious.
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James Masciandaro commented May 11
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James Masciandaro
San Bruno, CA ·
May 11
Chi? Acupuncture? Pseudosciences? Lost me there.
Why does fake acupuncture work as effectively as real acupuncture? Because it’s a placebo effect.
Things like magic potions and acupuncture work on some people, things that are real, like guns and bullets, work on everyone.
No knowledge is absolute. Maybe on to something, but it’s not chi.
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Dianakmax commented May 11In reply thread
D
Dianakmax
Austin ·
May 11
@DQuixote I have been a nurse for over thirty years. I understand that this is not news in the medical community per se however it is still informative to many that are not.
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Wayfarer commented May 11In reply thread
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Wayfarer
NYC ·
May 11
@Cat Lady It's not the pauses, it's the distracting and annoying moving graphics that make focusing on the text very difficult.
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***************** Me commented May 11In reply thread
*
***************** Me
************* Here ·
May 11
@Barbecue. And yet the article clearly indicates our more complex system appears to have evolved (Darwin's theory of evolution, not a mystical spiritual power) from far more simpler ones. Discovering the scientific reasons for the way things are instead of leaping to the conclusion it stems from an all- powerful, unknowable but benevolent superbeing takes time, thought, and discipline.
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Desertbluecat commented May 11
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Desertbluecat
Albuquerque ·
May 11
Someday researchers will discover a scientific basis for chakras. Meanwhile, lots of people continue to reap the health benefits of attention to the chakras without full understanding of how it works. That's ok.
Many of us with chronic conditions just want to feel better. If alternative therapies do that, well, as Reiki practitioners say, you don't have to "believe" in it for it to work. It just is.
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mellou1 commented May 11
m
mellou1
Austin, TX ·
May 11
As someone who has received acupuncture for a number of years, this is a "duh" moment, that is, my experience has totally convinced me of the truths behind this article. Acupuncture literally cured my insomnia, regularly fought inflammation, helped my GERD problems, etc.,etc. I am 80 years old, and this work, plus a clean diet and good supplements, has evoked praise from my GP and others that I am really healthy. Never too late, I guess - I hope the medical profession will teach how everything is connected and begin to heal the human body in this day and age.
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Damon Fields commented May 11
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Damon Fields
Virginia ·
May 11
Can NYT make a transcript version of this article available? The illustrations are lovely, but animated-graphics text is difficult for me to process.
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Sun and Stars commented May 11
S
Sun and Stars
Moon Up Above ·
May 11
This article reminds me of what my Chinese Tai Chi master tells his students:
That health comes not just from working your muscles in your limbs, but also from massaging your internal organs through stretching and breathing, and moving your chi around. Gently.
Tai Chi gives a little internal movement to your organs (fascia!) and unblocks your meridians (interstitial!) whilst also loosening up your muscles and helping your lymph move. Win win win win!
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Mr. Kinch commented May 11
M
Mr. Kinch
California ·
May 11
This is a foundational building block to get us closer to the truth about our biology that sets the stage for understanding the corresponding energy systems that impact us all day.
The presentation was also very helpful to visually place this newly discovered system in context.
Thanks to the researchers and NYT for publishing this amazing breakthrough.
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VH commented May 11In reply thread
V
VH
Oregon ·
May 11
@Alex
I agree. Science is lending some evidentiary support for one Eastern medical treatment and now my fear is that every unproven treatment will glom onto this as a way to bolster support for whatever folk, home remedy, alternative, etc. is put forward regardless of actual efficacy.
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nowadays commented May 11In reply thread
n
nowadays
New England ·
May 11
@Cathy I agree. I do not read in this way - fed one sentence at a time, with each sentence then disappearing from view.
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Hello, Kitty commented May 11In reply thread
H
Hello, Kitty
Portland, OR: Last in math/first in meth ·
May 11
@Janet There is no reason Eastern medical and scientific knowledge can't be demonstrated and quantified using the Western scientific method (and much has been).
How the knowledge was originally derived is less important than whether it can be measured and demonstrated in repeatable experiments.
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Alex commented May 11
A
Alex
Wellesley, MA ·
May 11
It’s worth noting that China spends billions of yuan a year to support even the most spurious lead on Chinese medicine, and forgery is common in this field. We should treat this finding with no small amount of skepticism.
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Martin commented May 11
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Martin
Seattle ·
May 11
Are there any dissenting opinions among researchers who have looked at this?
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Kristy commented May 11
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Kristy
Houston ·
May 11
These are some of the best graphics I have ever seen. I understand that others may have problems reading it, so maybe it would be wise to offer an option without them, but I think they are the star here. Well done, Jerome! Oh, and the article is great, too. :D
One question tho.. do all these popular 'fascia blasters' ruin the structure, or improve it? I would be very interested in the science here.
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Grams commented May 11In reply thread
G
Grams
Cape Cod ·
May 11
@Elizabeth If only the old Democrats would retire and we had someone to vote for. I won't vote for anyone over 70 and I'm 75.
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BlackCrow commented May 11
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BlackCrow
SF, NM ·
May 11
Fascinating! Thank you for presenting this information with graphics. It makes it so much easier to understand.
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Working Mama commented May 11
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Working Mama
New York City ·
May 11
Whoa. We barely seem to understand the lymphatic system yet.
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Sajan commented May 11In reply thread
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Sajan
Boston ·
May 11
@Gatineau Hills
Agreed!
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Anonymous commented May 11In reply thread
A
Anonymous
USA ·
May 11
@Michelle when folks in the west stumble on something of significance then it is discovery even if folks in the East have known about this for eons... lol
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NY commented May 11
N
NY
NY ·
May 11
The comments have turned into a bunch of talking points of how this discovery "explains" how everybody's pet favorite alternative medicine/treatment works. Ultimately a lot of stuff doesn't stand up to the rigors of double-blind placebo studies.
And it does not explain why alternative medicine is full of quacks and hucksters selling very expensive treatments for which there is no evidence. This is what makes misinformation so seductive, it starts out in actual scientific fact and then before you know it you're in the world of healing crystals and pseudoscience.
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NG commented May 11
N
NG
SW ·
May 11
Acupuncture is theater and pseudoscience. The overlap of these acupuncture points and interstitial tracts is more than likely put coincidence. You could Acupuncture has been clearly debunked already. This article is likely going to do a real disservice to science and medicine, especially in our current era rfk and his devotees.
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Don commented May 11
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Don
Santa Rosa, CA ·
May 11
My spiritual teacher, the late Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, used to call it the subtle body.
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Lynne commented May 11In reply thread
L
Lynne
Ct ·
May 11
@Diane Brenner Yes please. A link to the literature and findings would be amazing.
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Charlie Lindley, MD commented May 11
C
Charlie Lindley, MD
Boston ·
May 11
Something similar is emerging in the brain. The numerous (and varied) glial cells have long been considered mere scaffolding for neurons. That never seemed satisfying - and it isn't. They now appear to form their own networks - doing more than just supportive work. Brave new world!
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C commented May 11
C
C
T ·
May 11
This was utterly fascinating. I worked for a university health sciences center who had a PhD acupuncturist researcher on staff. I hope she’s still there.
The graphics were amazing and stunning!
Kudos to all who worked on this information-packed article with helpful and beautiful graphics.
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Davi commented May 11
D
Davi
Columbus, OH ·
May 11
This discovery should be the Times headline. It has greater impact than politics, Trump, etc.
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Former San Diego commented May 11In reply thread
F
Former San Diego
Spokane ·
May 11
@Cathy, I second! I regularly send articles to my email so that I can print them for my husband (who doesn’t use ‘devices’) and I to read the. These types of formats don’t allow me to do that.
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PJ Lehrer commented May 11
P
PJ Lehrer
New York City ·
May 11
I'd love to see a follow-up next week to see if anyone can remember what this article said. I suspect the results would be dismal. It was hard to find the substance in this piece due to the presentation format. Which is too bad, because this is an interesting development.
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LL commented May 11In reply thread
L
LL
Appleton ·
May 11
@Cathy it’s perfectly reasonable to ask for a text-only version — but in my view, that’s kind of like asking for the script to a movie. This is an inherently visual subject matter (i.e. mapping the anatomy of the body) and I don’t think it’s a reductive or infantilizing treatment of the subject to have rich, animate illustrations. (Kudos to the graphics team who worked on this!)
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TheCRUSH commented May 11
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TheCRUSH
Los Angeles ·
May 11
Now THIS is news. Amazing how we keep making profound medical discoveries, just when we thought we knew it all.
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Human Being commented May 11
H
Human Being
NYC ·
May 11
It’s surprising how western medicine undermines and dismisses eastern medicine. They are meant to be collaborative — eastern medicine is preventative while western medicine is reactive.
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No name commented May 11
No name
No name
earth ·
May 11
Science contains the ability to accept new knowledge and update thinking which is o e way it differs from religion
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Jan commented May 11
J
Jan
Hampshire ·
May 11
An amazing article, beautifully presented. Thank you for such imagination.
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diane commented May 11
d
diane
socal ·
May 11
I’m 74 years old and many years ago after not being able to get helped by many many different doctors with a breathing problem I was occasionally having I went to Chinatown to a fourth generation acupuncturist from Beijing. They were CEOs with halter monitors sitting there after six treatments I never had another symptom. This was after going to top pulmonologist cardiologist don’t ask. The man was a magician. The wisdom oozed out of him. I am so sad that he was old then and not around anymore to help my son with an autoimmune problem he was so wise and to think that acupuncture than even largely now in the west is treated like crystals. I never found another practitioner that helped me with anything I’m talking 2030 different acupuncturists and different parts of the country never were helped. It just shows you that it’s not only the name of the specialty. It’s the knowledge of the practitioner so sad that he isn’t training Drs
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Cheez Leweez commented May 11
C
Cheez Leweez
Oregon ·
May 11
I originally learned about the interstitium from the Radiolab episode briefly mentioned in this article. I recommend it:
https://radiolab.org/podcast/interstitium
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Sycamore commented May 11
S
Sycamore
Ossining, NY ·
May 11
death and dying are inevitable, inextricably bound to life and living. Chinese (traditional) culture and medicine understand this, in a way the West does not. and yes, it's good to find new ways of understanding the body, to create better treatments and reduce human suffering. but without a willingness to talk about, explore, and face death with greater respect, Western medicine will always be fighting against, rather than working with, Nature.
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Douglas Leen commented May 11
D
Douglas Leen
Kupreanof Alaska ·
May 11
Nothing new here. Fifty years ago, I took the human anatomy course (University of Washington) and interstitial space was taught as an integral part of the human body and its existence explained how infections spread. I graduated in dentistry where head-neck infections are a great focus of our training as we are doing surgery daily. Alternative medicine has proliferated during my lifetime with everyone claiming they have a cure when modern medicine can't explain everything. I would urge readers to visit quackwatch.org where you will find many answers.
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PNW commented May 11In reply thread
PNW
PNW
PNW ·
May 11
@JAS
No one on this research team made any such statement about "quackery."
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YO commented May 11
Y
YO
Philadelphia ·
May 11
That there is "flow" to the interstitial system implies either a pump or an electric current. Years ago, when I was doing simple DNA experiments as a Chemistry student in college, we would move the DNA through a gel panel to dissipate the strands by size, so we could read their sequence. We used an electric current to create the "flow" through the gel. I am imagining that an electric current could speak to acupuncture, where the needles serve as resistors creating a change in the flow that might have healing properties.
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David commented May 11
D
David
Pittsburgh ·
May 11
Interesting and exciting stuff. Also a lot like Europeans "discovering" a land and people who already existed.
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Tom commented May 11
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Tom
Michigan ·
May 11
The interstitial space is not a novel concept. It has been understood for decades. What is suggested here is that perhaps it represents a functional “highway” for cells and molecules to follow. It may just as well represent random diffusion of particles traveling from regions of higher to lower hydrostatic pressure conveniently following the fibrous network of our connective tissue coinciding, but not directly connected to the acupuncture meridians. This particle movement might be promoted by techniques such as medical massage and myofascial therapy as practiced by many osteopaths and physical therapists. It would be interesting to see the effect of these techniques applied to radioisotopic tracers or the tattoo ink experiment versus sham massage and myofascial therapy. Also interesting to see what effect electrical gradients have on particle movement through the interstitium.
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Sun and Stars commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sun and Stars
Moon Up Above ·
May 11
@Roger
You know how I know that acupuncture works? Two reasons.
1. It worked on my dog. He doesn't suffer from placebo effect.
2. It worked on me.
My acupuncturist on the first visit asked me to wiggle my (bad) back after having the needles in a few minutes. I was astonished to find - no pain! She said "I wish I could bottle that look on your face" and she's seen it many times on others...
Don't disparage it.
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Grace commented May 11
G
Grace
Salt Lake City ·
May 11
The information presented in this article is compelling. However, I find the animated article format difficult to read and navigate, especially on my phone. I strongly prefer a standard text article option. The interactive format interferes with readability and makes it harder to engage with the material. The. Again, I just subscribed to two print magazines so… maybe I’m just a boomer disguised as a millennial.
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preiher commented May 11In reply thread
p
preiher
US ·
May 11
@Cathy
Ah, yes, remember the ”Text-Only” button, that used to permit a focused reading (and printing) experience of the content of the article?
Those were the days my friend.
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ryandake commented May 11
r
ryandake
CA ·
May 11
what a fabulous presentation. Kudos to Jerome Berthier and Avraham Cooper for creating such a clear explanation of a complex system.
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Tom commented May 11
T
Tom
Oregon ·
May 11
This is great research, and a sore temptation to overindulge in Magical Asian stereotypes.
No, the interstitium is not chi. "Traditional" Eastern medicine may have painstakingly refined a set of highly-effective, poorly-understood, and unjustly underappreciated functional procedures over millenia of trial and error, but the traditional reasoning of *why* it works is a pastiche of dark-ages mystic bologna.
It's important to keep this distinction in mind, even as we celebrate finally reaching a deeper understanding of the human body that explains the functional mechanisms that Eastern practicioners have been just as blind to as Western ones have even as they've used them.
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Matt commented May 11
M
Matt
Maryland ·
May 11
The eye has something similar. There is a normal system called the trabecular mesh work, which works as a kind of filter. It can become clogged over time, which causes eye pressure to raise. There is also a uveoscleral outflow, which is more akin to an interstitial flow. Prostaglandins actually increase this type of flow, so we actively prescribe prostaglandin analogs to increase uveoscleral flow. It would be interesting to see if prostaglandin analogs also altered interstitial flow.
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On the other hand commented May 11
O
On the other hand
Canada ·
May 11
As a follow-up to my previous comment about being taught about the interstitial spaces way back, in medical school, we were also told that the blisters you get when you burn yourself are filled with interstitial fluid.
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Sophia commented May 11
S
Sophia
chicago ·
May 11
Amazing. A friend of mine studied traditional Asian medicine. This certainly suggests reasons why acupuncture and massage help alleviate symptoms.
Beautiful illustrations too.
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CB commented May 11In reply thread
C
CB
NY ·
May 11
@Hello, Kitty I agree that Cathy, as many others have, asked for text only. Perhaps the NYT can give links to that and more in-depth articles. Others have commented that reader only views are available in browsers. But to call those of us who like and benefit from illustrations as "children who need picture books" is downright mean. Cathy is not the only one who hated the format and took their swipes. Maybe the NYT should also give guidelines at the top of comments to keep the discussions civil.
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Bee commented May 11
B
Bee
our only home ·
May 11
I second the 'wow' and 'duh' reactions others are having to this article. As someone who has experienced the positive affect of acupuncture throughout my life (and has known people to have been able to give birth pain free - yep, in this country - with the aid of acupuncture) I'm happy to see that a way to translate this medicine into 'western' medical language is being created. Just because we can't 'see' it in Western medical terms doesn't mean a treatment system isn't real and effective.
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Wallace Grommet commented May 11
W
Wallace Grommet
Seattle ·
May 11
Considering that acupuncture has consistently shown little health benefit and failed to demonstrate successful treatment of any condition in numerous trials, why attempt to have it bask in reflected glory afforded by legitimate science?
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Paul commented May 11
P
Paul
Canada ·
May 11
This is a new discovery in the same way Westerners sailing into China discovered it. Except China had already discovered itself and apparently has long benefitted from insights into this corner of human anatomical science.
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John Mitchell commented May 11In reply thread
J
John Mitchell
New York ·
May 11
@PaperTrope: "people who can't handle"
Why be judgmental? Different people have different preferences.
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Dave W commented May 11
D
Dave W
Ojai CA ·
May 11
I totally get that the discovery of the interstitium connects Western medical thinking with the ancient knowledge of acupuncture. What puzzles me however is the physiology behind the consequences of acupuncture treatment being reconciled with the new information about how the interstitium network works.
In my ignorance, I assume that acupuncture works so well because of neurological stimulations. If I follow the thinking correctly about how the interstitium works, it is all about the relatively much slower transport of liquids and what they contain—— particles, chemicals, cells. No neurological stimulations at all. Am I missing something?
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Jean Michelle commented May 11
Jean Michelle
Jean Michelle
Wisconsin ·
May 11
Is this the same collagen I am trying to get rid of in my braised pot roast that I am now cooking?
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Mike commented May 11
M
Mike
Washington ·
May 11
The book...The Spark in the Machine published in 2014 by DR DANIEL KEOWN tells all about this! Really interesting!
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Sue TR commented May 11
S
Sue TR
Chapel Hill, NC ·
May 11
Thank you! This was richly informative. The graphics greatly enhanced the meaning to be drawn from the text. Well done to everyone associated with this!
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Sadie commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sadie
Boston ·
May 11
@GrimW mayve acupuncture fails some of those tests, but you have to admit it has great staying power. I wonder why. Can't be ONLY placebo. Or... placebo is more than you think!
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Tony commented May 11
T
Tony
Madison, WI ·
May 11
You have to wonder how much this system is operating in the brain, specifically in the blood-brain barrier.
Also, isn"t this a interstitial system a good basis for "meso-fascial" massage?
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Kat commented May 11
K
Kat
Rockland ·
May 11
As someone with an autoimmune condition that doesn’t neatly fit any current medical diagnoses, this advancement holds great promise. I also think it could help with understanding endometriosis - and perhaps find a link between it and autoimmune issues.
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Joe Bob Jones commented May 11
J
Joe Bob Jones
Oregon ·
May 11
Let’s not fawn over acupuncture. Acupuncture is a placebo, and a pseudoscience, which is why it sometimes has some benefits for pain, and little else.
It can occasionally work because we want it to, but not because there is any science to it. Put another way, acupuncture needles when applied arbitrarily by a practitioner, when applied randomly, or when not actually applied at all (but the patient believes they are) have the same effect.
Just felt the need to point this out.
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Thinking Matters commented May 11
Thinking Matters
Thinking Matters
Seminole, FL ·
May 11
"Subtle energy" healing techniques derive from the assumption that the body has a barely-detectable system that affects health. While these techniques have been used for centuries, American medical practice has insisted on physical evidence of its existence, despite the evidence of its effects.
Acupuncture, homeopathy and "hands on" healing have been engaging these "subtle" systems for centuries.
It's nice to see physical, RCT-based "medicine" catching up!
Thanks to the person with the tattoo and the scientists who had the insight to follow a subtle lead.
And thanks to the artist who produced the great graphics for this story!
Next step: entertaining the idea that the subtle system can be influenced from outside the body, without swallowing something or being injected or cut open.
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George Hayduke commented May 11
G
George Hayduke
Hite, Utah ·
May 11
Excellent work. Thank you! Great explanations for non-medical people.
The NYT needs far more of this and a lot less of US politics.
Replies 2
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Elmer commented May 11In reply thread
E
Elmer
Sea of Tranquility ·
May 11
@Steve insurance agents are not scientists, doctors, or statisticians, as you must surely know. Insurance companies do not represent "Science". Their job is to pay for as little as possible under the arbitrary rules they themselves put into place.
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Matt commented May 11
M
Matt
Columbus, OH ·
May 11
This discovery is very exciting but this article is vastly overblowing the effectiveness and usefulness of eastern "medicine." Meridians, chakra points and acupuncture points have all had hundreds of well-sourced scientific studies, and on net have shown to either not exist or have no effect over placebo. Just because people have believed in prescientific ideas for thousands of years doesn't mean that a newly-discovered system maps to those pre-scientific ideas.
Things that work are called medicine. Things that haven't been shown to work, despite searching quite rigorously, should be rightfully discarded. We don't believe in the four bodily humors anymore or miasma, and for good reason. Let these bad ideas die, so that we can move to newer and better ideas.
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Roger commented May 11
R
Roger
Paris ·
May 11
The fact remains that acupuncture has not been conclusively or consistently shown to perform significantly better than placebo in any randomized controlled double-blind trial. While many studies indicate that acupuncture is more effective than no treatment (waitlist), it often shows similar efficacy to "sham" (placebo) acupuncture. If acupuncture were truly centred on a real circulatory system such as this 'interstitium', then surely it would perform significantly better in most randomised controlled trials.
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Jeff and Mary commented May 11
J
Jeff and Mary
Needham, MA ·
May 11
This feature of anatomy has been known to surgeons for a very long time. If one puts a skin graft on any facial bed, it stays alive because of the interstitium, until neovascularization can occur. Special wound problems relating to radiation therapy likely occur because all three circulations are disrupted. I also have concerns that many of the adverse effects on the extremities associated with dialysis are related to alterations in the interstitium circulation, especially from the deposition of calcium. A key issue not addressed in this article, but of huge importance, is why tissues thicken and stiffen with age. The loss of flexibility is a major issue, and it is not understood.
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Notsolongago commented May 11
N
Notsolongago
Miami, FL ·
May 11
Thank you for bringing this information to a wider audience. Eastern and wholistic medical practices hold great value for improving human health for our unbelievably sick and diseased population. We are in a full blown health catastrophe yet Regardless of what some commenters suggest, allopathic practitioners and the historically male dominated western medical traditions have mostly ignored the benefits of traditional plant and herb based remedies. Capitalism and greed have made us sick. All logical alternatives to our failed medical system should be given serious consideration.
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Small mind commented May 11
Small mind
Small mind
Beauport Massachusetts ·
May 11
Great article, and maybe a warning about getting tattoos. The inks are supposed to be non toxic, but no safety or any FDA testing has been done on them. The article explains why the tattoos fade and how the fine details blur together, while the inks penetrate deeper into the body tissues, ie fascia and institium.
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Donna Riley-Lein commented May 11
D
Donna Riley-Lein
Fairhope, AL ·
May 11
Decades ago, I had back surgery for an injury. The surgery was successful, but I had lingering pain. My surgeon referred me to an acupuncture clinic. It was all very medical, and as I talked to my acupuncturist, I learned she had been a medical doctor in what was then the Soviet Union. It took several weeks, but my pain eased. I have visited acupuncturists to ease a strained shoulder and after knee surgery, all with a medical doctor's blessing.
My eyes were opened to "Eastern medicine," and I still firmly want tests, research and explanations for the treatments.
I think both systems can learn something from each other.
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O'Paco. commented May 11In reply thread
O
O'Paco.
Elsewhere ·
May 11
@JAS Greek ancient medicine also believed in similar concepts like the 'humors" that went pretty much unchallenged for 2000 years. Probably every cultural tradition in the world has similar concepts. The difference is that by having scientific evidence we know that there is a new system and that 99.999% of those tradional ones were wrong anyway.
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Mimi commented May 11
Mimi
Mimi
OnTheBorder ·
May 11
There are a couple of assumptions here that are utterly false. There is no such thing as "Western" and "Eastern" medicine. There is only medicine which is used all over the world. Secondly, acupuncture is NOT a valid treatment. It's popularity or the fact that non-science people have validated it by forcing insurance to cover it have nothing to do with whether or not it "works". In proper studies, it does not work. Nor is the current way it is practiced "ancient"--rather it is relatively modern--there were no very fine steel needles in ancient times and acupuncture in ancient times was little more than bloodletting.
This discovery may be important but it does not in any way validate false premises such as proposed here.
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Phil commented May 11In reply thread
P
Phil
NJ ·
May 11
@Concerned Citizen
Dismissing something out of hand as pseudoscience is not going to help. What the article says is perhaps there is a connection to why acupuncture works to the interstitial system. The claim acupuncture does not work does not help. I am sure there are cases where western medicine does not work. And placebo effects are real showing a mind-body connection that some eastern systems suggest.
The fact we are even discovering the interstitial system now should make us humble and admit that we don’t know everything. And anything that treats a whole person may not be so easy to study when there are so many more variables to consider that could impact efficacy. Just because we have been following something for 400 years doesn’t mean we should continue doing that because if we did we wouldn’t have changed anything.
Dismissing something out of hand is certainly not science in my dictionary. If we can’t measure something effectively it may also point to our measurement system.
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susan siegel commented May 11
s
susan siegel
carrboro nc ·
May 11
Please create a readable and shareable version of this article!
Thanks.
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Kevin commented May 11
K
Kevin
Sonora Mx ·
May 11
Retired MD here. This just doesn't seem to be big news. All living tissue requires nutrients ( think oxygen and glucose) to be delivered to it and waste products ( think CO2) removed. So we have always known that these nutrients and wastes had to be delivered by some sort of diffusion process. That is what this article describes. Not sure why the authors think this is such important finding. Perhaps I am wrong.
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gordon commented May 11
g
gordon
California ·
May 11
I’m left with just one question. How were ancient Chinese able to figure this out hundreds or thousands of years ago? Ok, and a second question: what took western medicine so long? Better late than never I suppose.
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Susan Anderson commented May 11
Susan Anderson
Susan Anderson
Boston ·
May 11
Wow. Thank you for this terrific presentation. You make something which seems complex into a straightforward presentation.
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Vee Kay commented May 11
V
Vee Kay
Tucson ·
May 11
Powerful article. Loved the graphics and animation.
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Karen commented May 11In reply thread
K
Karen
Switzerland ·
May 11
@Jack Z It's not a binary. Non-Western therapies are often referred to as complementary medicine.
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MM commented May 11In reply thread
M
MM
UT ·
May 11
@George They just used different language and are mostly interested in function, rather than structure. Our Western minds think structure first, function last so we have not been able to grasp it, but it’s been there all along.
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HonestNauman commented May 11In reply thread
H
HonestNauman
Eugene, OR ·
May 11
@Dale “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof” is rhetorical NOT scientific. “Extraordinary” is not a formally defined, quantitative term but rather a SUBJECTIVE one.
The appropriate scientific standard considers whether the evidence is sufficient to support the claim. If not, the claim is NOT supported. And there is certainly more to research here, but let’s stop with the rhetoric if we are claiming to “do science”.
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Robin commented May 11
R
Robin
Montreal ·
May 11
Interesting article. Amazing graphics!
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Debby commented May 11In reply thread
D
Debby
Honolulu ·
May 11
@GrimW neither of these modalities’s effects are placebo based. Acupuncture has been around for thousands of years, and would not have persisted in various societies if ineffective; usually that has an extinguishing effect. Additionally spinal pain can be relieved by manipulation. If it didnt work, it wouldn’t persist as an option….
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Sadie commented May 11In reply thread
S
Sadie
Boston ·
May 11
@globe or rather, it is more holistic than than the tat getter thought. But I have come to the conclusion that to be human is to live with and endure all kinds of toxins. It is a toxic life for most of us, in various ways. A marvelous, evolutionary crucible, if you ask me. And the poisonous pinnacle of anthropogenic suffering.
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Mallard commented May 11
M
Mallard
Central Ohio ·
May 11
Absolutely fascinating! Thank you for this important piece of new knowledge. I have gone to acupuncturists for years over the objections of others and have found help. The Chinese trained acupuncturist I have gone to most recently is a fount of knowledge and has helped me and others with things he could perceive about our bodies (past injuries/surgeries) about which we did not tell him.
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Jack commented May 11
Jack
Jack
Asheville ·
May 11
Chinese medicine: "We've been talking about it for 4000 years." But western medicine has refused to listen until now? Just like with the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems in disease presentations like long COVID, western medicine has simply disregarded and belittled people with diseases and symptom presentations they couldn't understand with their narrowed understanding of the scientific method. Western civilization suffers from an overweening arrogance that will ultimately be its downfall.
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Michael commented May 11
M
Michael
Salem, Ma ·
May 11
Fascinating. I would have preferred to simply read the piece as plain text. The animation was lovely, but a crolling through it annoying and slow.
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Kathy commented May 11
K
Kathy
New Jersey ·
May 11
Fascinating! Keep studying. Keeping connecting. Keep learning. KEEP FUNDING THE WORK.
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==================
Read More
Some discoveries change the way we view the human body.
In 2021, researchers described what they saw when they had examined skin-biopsy samples that included tattoos: The ink particles had traveled deeper than anticipated, through interstitial spaces into the tissue underneath the skin, or the fascia.
“That wasn’t supposed to happen,” Neil Theise, a professor of pathology at New York University and a senior author of the paper reporting the results, told me.
The existence of an apparent conduit between skin and the fascia beneath it — two tissue layers not known to connect with each other in this way — broke accepted anatomic boundaries.
The researchers also found that the same was true for other previously unknown microscopic connections between organs in the abdomen.
That interstitial spaces exist in and under the skin and between and around the body’s organs had been observed going back more than a century, but they were assumed to exist in isolation from one another, like a patchwork quilt.
Theise and his colleagues published their first observations of these spaces in 2018. Their findings in the 2021 tattoo-ink study implied that the body’s interstitial spaces were parts of a vast interconnected whole — what scientists now call the interstitium.
“This is clearly a third bodily system for the circulation of fluids,” in addition to the cardiovascular and lymphatic systems, says Rebecca Wells, a professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania and a senior author of the study. The human body suddenly looked less like a patchwork quilt and more like a knitted blanket.
The implications of a new circulatory system — for our health, and for our understanding of our own bodies — are potentially enormous.
The Human Body’s Hidden Pathways
By Avraham Z. Cooper
Illustrations by Jérôme Berthier
May 11, 2026
Share full article1.1k
For 400 years, anatomists have understood there to be two systems in the body that function as transportation networks for cells, electrolytes, nutrients and hormones: the lymphatic system and the cardiovascular system.
The lymphatic system, which removes excess fluid from tissues, was observed as early as 1622 by the Italian physician Gaspare Aselli when he vivisected a dog.
The workings of the cardiovascular system, in which the heart pumps blood through arteries, capillaries and veins, were first described in 1628 by the English physician and anatomist William Harvey.
We have also known, starting with its description more than a century ago by an American anatomist and pathologist named Franklin Mall, that a fibrous connective tissue enwraps and undergirds the internal structures in the human body: organs, nerves, blood vessels, bone, muscle.
This ubiquitous fibrous tissue, the fascia, functions in the body the way studs frame the rooms in a house. But these studs and the interstitial spaces inside them weren’t thought to be interconnected within and between organs — to form an interstitium network — until Theise and Wells’s study was published.
To get a sense of the inside of the interstitium, Wells suggests picturing a sheet of chicken wire embedded in a gel.
The chicken wire represents collagen, a type of protein. Inside the interstitium, bundles of collagen interlock with one another, providing strength and structure.
The spongelike gel, able to absorb and store water, is made from hyaluronic acid and fills the spaces between the collagen bundles.
Fluid, cells and other molecules slowly flow through this gel.
In this new view of the body’s interstitial spaces, these microscopic areas connect to one another within a larger web, through which fluid moves before re-entering the lymphatic and cardiovascular systems,
like groundwater flowing through the Earth’s crust before returning to the surface in springs and rivers.
Theise, Wells and colleagues were praised by their scientific peers for their findings. “This work was really comprehensive,” says David Merrick, an assistant professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania. But the idea of there being a circulatory system involving the body’s connective tissues was not unfamiliar to some medical systems.
“This knowledge is actually quite ancient,” says Leah Welsh, an osteopathic physician and an assistant professor of family and community medicine at Ohio State. “It’s something that other systems of medicine have been offering for a long time, but they didn’t have microscopes.”
As Theise told an interviewer from “Radiolab” in 2023, an expert in traditional Chinese medicine approached him at a conference in China where he was speaking on the interstitium and said, “We’ve been talking about it for 4,000 years.”
One of the most intriguing areas of current research is whether there is a connection between the interstitium and the ancient Chinese practice of acupuncture.
Acupuncture is used to treat conditions as varied as chronic pain, migraines, seasonal allergies and nausea caused by chemotherapy, but some of its actions have never been completely explained. The discovery of the interstitium may help us understand in modern biomedical terms how acupuncture works.
The principles of the practice invoke two circulating elements: chi and blood.
Traditional Chinese medicine describes chi as flowing along one of 12 main tracks, called meridians.
Acupuncturists insert small needles into specific points on the body to enhance the flow of chi.
In a 2002 study, Helene Langevin and Jason Yandow mapped the locations of acupuncture points in the arms to the fascia between and around muscles.
These acupuncture points have since been found to lie within the same areas of connective tissue where fluid flows through the interstitium.
A 2019 paper by researchers in China, led by Dr. Hongyi Li, explains how they injected chemical tracers into acupuncture points in the hands and feet of cadavers and used chest compressions to push fluid through the bodies.
Fluorescent photography enabled them to see the tracers traveling toward the heart within interstitial spaces of the arms and legs. Li and colleagues clearly recognized, just as Wells and Theise did, that they had glimpsed evidence of an interstitial circulation system.
If acupuncture points seem to reside within the interstitium, could the meridians run through the interstitium as well?
In 2021, a group of researchers conducted a similar experiment in China on living subjects, injecting dye into acupuncture points in the forearms of 15 volunteers.
In almost all of them, the dye slowly migrated upward along a route corresponding to the pericardium meridian, which passes through the wrist and along the inner arm.
(Pericardium is the same meridian stimulated by anti-nausea wrist acupressure devices popular on cruise ships.)
“This pathway doesn’t go in the veins, it doesn’t go superficially,” says Andrew Ahn, the study’s senior author and an assistant professor at Harvard Medical School. It goes instead, he told me, into the interstitium between the muscles: “When I saw that, I said: ‘We’re onto something. This truly has to do with acupuncture.’”
“I actually do think that the interstitium could be the link between Eastern and Western medicine,” Wells told me. “But you have to show scientifically that that’s the case.”
Much more research is needed to begin to understand the full implications of the discovery of an interconnected interstitium, but there are some promising leads.
Research in animals led by Merrick suggests that when a person gains weight, specialized cells in the interstitium around body fat can be called upon to make healthy fat cells, which are a key factor in fending off Type 2 diabetes.
Tipping these specialized cells toward the production of more healthy fat could offer a target for potential diabetes therapies.
Wells, who is a gastroenterologist, says that interstitial links may help explain why some patients with inflammatory bowel diseases, particularly ulcerative colitis, develop an autoimmune disease that affects the bile ducts.
It has been theorized that in inflammatory bowel disease immune cells, gut bacteria or bacterial fragments that migrate from the intestines to the liver end up reaching the bile ducts through the interstitium.
An interconnected interstitium also seems to play a critical role in cancer metastasis. It is well established that cancer cells can spread to the rest of the body by hijacking the lymphatic system.
But evidence suggests that tumor cells may reach the lymphatic system by first navigating through the fluid flowing through the interstitium, like fish swimming downstream.
Numerous cancer types have been seen spreading through the interstitium, breaking down hyaluronic acid as they spread. These include breast, lung, colon, pancreatic and skin cancers, among others, according to Theise.
A drug called narmafotinib, which disrupts how tumor cells invade and move through the interstitium, has shown promise in early clinical trials for treating pancreatic cancer, when combined with chemotherapy.
The discovery of a third circulatory system could transform our understanding of how the human body works. And it may also change how we view our own bodies in relation to other biological systems.
Wells points out that hydra — tiny freshwater invertebrates — have fluid-filled connective tissue called mesoglea that, like the interstitium, contain collagen and a gel-like substance similar to hyaluronic acid.
Plants seem to possess their own version of an interstitium, too. It’s called the apoplast, a type of interstitial space that transports water and nutrients outside cell membranes.
These and other examples suggest that fluid moving through interstitial spaces might have represented the first circulatory systems to develop in the earliest forms of complex multicellular plant and animal life, hundreds of millions of years ago.
This relatively recent discovery may have opened up new research frontiers that connect to some of the most ancient life-forms on our planet.
Avraham Z. Cooper, a pulmonary and critical care physician, is an associate professor of medicine at Ohio State University.
Jérôme Berthier is a visual artist and illustrator living in Vancouver, Canada, and the author of the comic “Myth.”
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