KEN WILBER -ISRAEL/PALESTINE NOV- 2023
Raquel Torrent Guerrero
2,766 views Premiered Nov 24, 2023
In this interviewed proposed by Raquel Torrent, as a "Call for Peace", trying to put some Consciousness to the terrible situation, Ken Wilber, one of the best philosophers and thinkers of our time, talks about Evolution and how human beings are in the midst of the down wave of an evolving process.
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Transcript
hello my name is Rael torrent psychologist integral psychotherapist
and transpersonal guide we are here today because I felt an overwhelming
call to action when the Ukrainian Devastation started and yet the only thing I did was
to pray now with the Terrors of the humanitarian
catastrophe which is taking place in the Palestinian Gaza strep that many are
calling a broadcasted genocide I feel the human responsibility
of doing what I can to unite my voice to the choir who is actually making a call
for peace I want to do it from the level and
discipline that I best know and I cannot Envision a better
person to make this call than my mentor and friend Mr Ken Wilbur one of the best
philosophers and thinkers of our time a real activist of the spirit founder of
the integral Theory and writer of almost 30 books translated to more than 20
languages hello Ken my dear thank you very much you
doing thank you very much for responding to this call for peace and by accepting
this interview hello of course
sure so um Can which would you say that are the real causes of the conflict
between Israel and Palestine which has provoked this unacceptable atrocity that
the people from gasa are experiencing and that represents a real humanitarian
crisis do you think it's something historic or political economical or
religious yeah um well all of those because we need to take an integral
approach and so historically we see this disjuncture
going back well almost 10,000 years um
because it was about 10,000 Years BC that the Israelis started getting
this idea that quote This Land Is My Land God gave this land to me and so the
Israeli people have always had a feeling of ownership of that
land now when Muslim Arab approach camey
in both the Israeli spiritual orientation and the
Muslim Arab orientation both of them tended to be
fundamentalists and that's very very theread most religions have at least two
forms one is fundamentalist and one is Mystical the fundamentalist believes in
mythological forms and ideas so it believes in Zeus and Apollo and
Aphrodite and Jupiter Mars and so on um
and all of those of course are mythological beings and the ideas
connected to those mythological beings are mythological beliefs mythological
ideas yeah and that's what most of the world's religions come from so Christian it
believes that there is literally a biological Son Of An Almighty God are
you kidding me I mean I you got to be kidding me so
um there's all of that mythology on the Christian side um and then there are
occasional Christian
Mystics
oh we got caught I your voice went away caught in
what he called a cave of reality and the real sun light of
reality is in back of us casting the light through Us in to make shadows on
the back of the cave and we're all addicted to the shadows in the back of the cave we don't have any idea that
they're just Shadows that the real realities exist beyond the Shadows and
more with the real Sun so
um that problem is when you have two
mythological forms of religion
opposed to each other that's can lend to a great deal of violence and
antagonism and aggression um because among other things
the Arabs believe that their land is actually theirs and and they can carve
out of a part of that land for themselves and the Israelis are like no
God gave us that land um this great mythological being who looked all over
the world and decided that he would plunk his one and only son down to a
very small tribe in a very dry part of
the mid East a part that doesn't have any oil by the way um talk about bad
luck um and that through various historical forces
became major religion of the West um
and another religion grew up in the west which was the Islamic and it had a great deal of
initial influence there was Islamic empire and the
um belief in in Allah became almost as widespread as the
belief in Jehovah although they're both of the same believability as Zeus or
Apollo or Aphrodite I mean they're just Mythic imagination and
reforms and those again are different from the mystics that have a direct
experience of what they generally call a ground of all
being and there is that's a very real metaphysical concept of ground an
infinite ground of all being the reality of all manifestation the reality of the
entire universe um and that's a very real
metaphysical concept and it answers very real metaphysical questions like if
everything has a cause and most things do are caused by something then what
causes the first cause well there has to be something that's not itself the cause
and that's the ground of all being um so that's a very real concept and what's
more there are Mystics have direct
experiences of this ground of all being and so they feel one with the entire
universe and that's a very real mystical experience
and it's most of the founders of the great religions
including Jesus Christ and Mohammad and
Abraham um they have had some type of
this direct Unity experience yeah so I am the father or one um or Jesus Christ
clearly believes that he is one with this ultimate ground of all being the
father and several other founding religious Founders um but mostly their
followers fell into the fundamentalist Mythic forms of that belief because not
everybody has a direct experience of this Ultimate Reality and so they just
think about it and when they think about it they use the earliest forms of
thought which develop in childhood around four or five or six years old and
they're all mythological forms of thinking so you get this fundamentalist
belief structure that grows up um and
when you put those fundamentalist belief structures together and they
disagree on the form of the mythological God that they feel is most real so Allah
versus Jehovah then you've got the grounds for a historically
prolonged violent conflict um and that's the historical
difference the political difference has come down to the politics of
ownership this land is my land God gave this land to me and the Muslims are no
wait a minute all are gave this land to us oh yeah well take that take that and
they go out it um and those are the political reasons on the economic side
the Muslims for whatever reason have done very little to develop a vibrant
economy um and whereas isra Israelis Jewish people have very aggressive
engaged in economic forms that are very profitable and so Jews are worldwide
fairly wealthy people and when you get wealth versus
poverty that's another form of conflict particularly the poor people feel like
the wealthy people are oppressing them and that's the basic form
of political belief in the west is called an oppression
Paradigm because what happens when you have somebody who's very
poor they feel that they are being oppressed or held down or that somehow
somebody else is taking all the money and that would be the Jews in this case
so you have victims and the oppressed and then you have the
oppressors and you can be one or the other you can't be both and this was actually made into a
very elaborate Doctrine by Carl Marx um where he saw all of history as a
conflict between oppressors and oppressed and the oppressors generally
are oppressing the poor people and the disadvantaged and so on and so that has
become a deep source of conflict for various groups people and
particularly the Muslims and the Jews um and and can can uh what about
this H reality that during many many uh
occasions the Israelites have been like um uh getting onto the
Palestines like in conflicts with the Palestines all the time uh historically
you know like uh really getting on to them uh because they want something from
them it's clear I am not a politician at all or or even a h historian uh at all
and yet um I think that the Palestine had a land and the British
divided their land to give it to the Israelites so
that's this is something which the Palestines feel like they have been
taken off something which theirs no right well that simp ly adds to their
sense of being oppressed taken advantage of um
victimized um and there is truth to that truth to that right yeah and that's a
problem but the problem is compounded by the fact that members of
like let's say Hamas really have psychological
problems
um anger hatred aggression jealousy Envy
attack mode um many Arab
Muslims have this personality disorder where they go out they very
willing to kill men women children and babies I mean on October 7th of this
month Hamas attacked Israel and took 36
hostages including babies women men and
children um and so one of the main problems we have
is a psychotherapeutic problem that affects
Hamas more than it affects the Jews Jews of course had their own Psychotherapy
problems and got do you find do you really find acceptable what the Jews are
doing now with the because it's a real humanitarian crisis what they are
creating that because um I am understand that they want to kind of respond to
what Hamas did and yet the atrocity that
the Civil U people you know the CI the Civil um um um how do you say that the
the citizens you know of Palestine now which are just civils children and and
uh women are suffering so much without water without hospitals
the more than 60% of hospitals are now smashed
completely I mean right well again it's a difficult problem because to take the
hospitals for example one of the reasons they're not functioning is that very
soon for at least 10 years now in 1014 the ne New York Times And The
Washington Post both reported that Hamas is using
hospitals for their main headquarters so that when Israel attacks
them they're GNA kill civilians and then they can Hamas can
throw its hands back and say Well they're killing all our women and children well get the [ __ ] out of the
hospital is there cure for that and Israel it's true that there are women
and children suffering but it's because they're being used as shields for
Hamas now that's just that's the opinion of the New York Times And The Washington
Post I'm not making this up it's not my particular Prejudice or
Viewpoint um but I think there is some truth to that um because Hamas it can be
demonstrated that they locate their headquarters in hospitals in schools
among civilian populations I I I understand that Ken
and yet do you find equal do you find equal because you were talking about
psychotherapeutic problems from the Muslims side what about the Jew side now
taking the water and the food and not permit the people to go down to the
South to escape all these things don't you think that is a psychotherapeutic
problem as well well yes but what do you do with the standard Jewish
procedure of not attacking deliberately stopping all attacks during particular
times of each and every day so that those people Muslims who want to leave
the area can do so without being attacked there they have not done that
they are not doing that very easily and they have until they have accepted to do
that which is with with what they are negotiating right now they have first
than that they have avoided the possibility of entering humanitarian
help for the people which was inside of those blockages so I find that
psychotherapeutically crazy as well because you know it's like really trying
to make that people dies directly and they are not from Hamas they are just
Palestinians you know so that's what I don't find like s
I don't find that like um uh they say they want to get rid of Hamas but you
know yes terrorism is not acceptable in any form that's for sure and yet don't
you think that it's also an ideology that it's it's they try to get
rid of an ideology more than anything well sure um
but let me get try to understand you are you saying that Hamas is not a terrorist
organization oh no I am saying that they are very terrorist and what the ones
which are not terrorist are the civilians women and children which have
been taking off the water the food and the possibility to escape for many many
days and they have been suffering and dying in the streets because they didn't
have anything to eat or anything to drink that is really insane you know
because it it's not normal I mean one thing is I don't want Hamas to be a
terrorist anymore I am not going to permit that this is going to be repeated in my
land correct I am understand that and yet to kill all those people thinking
that they are Hamas is not recognizing that they are not Hamas they are just
Palestinians right well but do you not believe that Hamas frequently
headquarters among the civilian population in hospitals and schools and
places like that because we have evidence that Hamas doeses that on a regular basis and so if you go ahead and
attack Hamas and civilians are killed what do you do about that yeah it's not
an easy task that's for sure it's not is it is a real difficult situation that's
for sure and yet the the suffering I mean when we see those streets are
absolutely devastated and all the women and children more than 12,000 children have
been killed it's a lot I mean it it is really when you see it from the outside
it's really terrible imagine from the inside families whole families cut off
without a house without anything with this um um
reasoning of I want to feel hamama Hamas will not be killed because it's an
ideology and well right as far as I can tell the blame lies more or less equally
with the Palestinians and the Jews yeah yeah because Hamas does
intentionally infect civilian areas and then Israel tries to fight back of
course civilians are attacked um but I have seen at least some moves
on Israel's part to withhold attacking the Hamas headquarters for
certain designated periods and civilians that's what they are
negotiating that's what they are negotiating now let's see if they accept
that the only thing is that it is a real difficult situation because it seems
that Israel has like a an agenda a heating agenda that they want you know
to really get into the sea and finally get you know some kind of an exit to the
Sea and uh anyway I don't know what the situation is not easy and the only thing
I know is that I see this catastrophe humanitarian catastrophe as a real
unacceptable situation that we will go to the following
questions and we you will tell me what do you think about you know what the
westerns are doing okay now um from an integral perspective how would you
define what's happening and which would be an integral solution that politicians
could imp well I think one of the key factors is
that politicians have to start thinking integrally and they have to start
speaking integrally and that means
speaking ingly politically historically
psychologically economically sociologically
religiously and taking all these different perspectives and making sure
that they're representing all of them and that sounds a little
complicated um but it's it's something that if things are going
well among communities they are thinking
integral that's why there are no major problems s arising between
them because if they're thinking interally and political terms and on
economic terms and on religious terms and on sociological terms then they're
looking from all perspectives and they're making sure that all perspectives are included in any
decision they make and when both sides are doing that you're not going to get
in trouble you can't for sure and yet do you think that politicians are willing
to learn those integral perspectives well that's the thing how much suffering
can they stand because most politicians frankly can stand a lot of suffering because
they bring on a lot of suffering because they don't think or talk ingly they're
not taking all perspectives into account they're taking just their perspective
into account God gave me this land this land is mine I'll kill you if you don't
get off it and then the other side says well oh yeah this land is my land and
God gave this land to me and I'm gonna kill you if you don't get off and then
there they go and they're just at each other's throats around the clock and
once you think you've got the right to attack somebody else then
that means you've got the right to do anything you can torture them you can
murder them you can hang them you can strangle them it doesn't matter and
that's why that's the and TV cameras are always there to catch that action oh
look at what they're doing to those poor civilian people or oh look at the
horrible things that are being done to children and babies
and all of that goes out on the news and the small percentage of each
side that's trying to include all of these perspectives and to do the right
thing by all of them those don't get any attention and so what we get is this
brutal conflict over the Gaza Strip and it's just horrifying what's going on
politicians you remember when when um um
Clinton and Obama were kind of integrally aware and it seemed that
something was going to be ending and and something was going to be starting and
it even read some of my work he knew about yeah now all that it seems that it
has deluded unfortunately and it's like we have gone
back again into blue meem right don't
you think that we are backing to Amber and or or or even before because it's
like oh my God we are again looking into the right extreme wings and and not
thinking socially just me me me me me and I mean it's really disgusting well
that's yeah that's exactly right and that's what happens when you get two
sides of what turns out to be an argument because they both have certain
fundamental beliefs that disagree with each other because they're fundamentally
Mythic beliefs and when you have Mythic beliefs
at each other's throat there's no reality that you can appeal to that will
resolve that because myth is not reality myth obscures reality myth is hiding
reality so I mean if you're actually going to believe that there's a guy walking
around who's the one and only biological son of the one and only creator of the
entire universe and there's only one of them the Son of God well I'm sorry
that's not reality that's not anything near a reality and so when both sides are full
of those types of thoughts there's nothing you can appeal to that will end
that conflict because if you are going to believe your myth and you're going to
believe your myth you're going to believe in your Jehovah and you're going to believe in your Allah well there's
nothing that's going to make you give up that belief and so wait no my Jehovah's right
and your Allah is bad no my Allah is good and your Jehovah is the source of
all evil well oh yeah and then you pick up your guns and your knives and your
swords and your torture mechanism and you go at each other and there's nothing
that can be done that will stop that yet and yet don't you think that Jehovah or
Allah have something in common which could be kind of like the Common Thread
let's say the common Unity for a solution could it be which will be
Allah has love and wants love and Jehovah as well so I will understand
that if they Center in love love for people love for life you
know respect for life because love is also respect so don't you think that love is
the only answer well if you're Mystic it
is but if you're not a Mystic it isn't and the reason it isn't is if I believe
that Jehovah is The One and Only God of all things and you believe no not
Jehovah it's Allah and Jehovah gave me this hunk of
land and I want you off of it and oh no Allah gave me this chunk of land I want
you off of it well everybody that believes in Jehovah
or Allah is not believing in love because if if you have your firm
belief that Jehovah is The One and Only God and you're facing somebody who
believes in Allah and you're both fighting over a pieace of land and you
believe Jehova gave this land to you and I believe Allah gave this land to me
then we're not going to love each other we're going to hate each other you won't
get off my land I hate you oh no you won't get off my land I hate you and
religion is the source of as much hatred as it is
Love Now obviously some people that believe in religion do have a sense of
love but not everybody um many people that believe
that Jehovah is my one and only God hate people that don't accept their
belief and that's the problem more Wars have been caused by
religion than by any other factor in human history yeah and it it's just it's
terrible but that's the way human beings are um and that's why I put for this the
Deep causes of this conflict I put fundamentalist religion right at the
core of the problem and I I think that's
historically undeniable and it's a shame it it is a
shame it is above all because then query's love you know right and if you
have a mystical experience it's it is of love and love means a
Oneness with something if I whether I love ice cream I want to become one with
ice cream or whether I love my dog and I want to hug my dog whether I love you
and I want to become on with you um and that's wonderful um so a mystical love if all
religions were mystically loving yes there wouldn't be any War
because nobody would want to hurt anybody else you want to love them you want to embrace them you want to become
one with them and then that's great but the percentage of religious Believers
that are actual Mystics is relatively small it yeah it's about
5% and so that's not enough to even even in the Catholics you know that well
Christians um mysticism has only been accepted like 2 years ago yeah that's
true mysticism has been kind of denied yeah you couldn't have a direct
experience of God no that was forbidden who are you to have a direct experience
of God no no no no you have to come through me which I am the
priest yeah and that's the way religions went most World Famous religions started
with a mystical experience yes very powerfully felt by a single
person and then they taught it to their followers and not all the followers had
that experience and so they started repeating it in Mythic forms yeah and
they let their own self agrement self-aggression take over and that's
what got spread as religion and that's just love and dead
that's right and that's one of the truly sad sad realities of History yeah of
human history very very sad so can due to the excess of information
and devastating images that we see about this war we have death in the soup while
we are having lunch like televised horror as we said
before so how do you think this affects human consciousness will our ethics and
moral loosens in the long run because of such exposure to violence or will in
increase judgment repulse and or fear and what about disinformation and fake
news also yeah what all of these have in
common including our shadow material is that they're all distortions of
reality so where we should feel love we don't see love we see hatred or self
arring M or selfishness or something that's not a real reality it's not the
fundamental reality which is love but again that's not the primary
experience that most humans have or they love occasionally they love a little bit
their girlfriend their boyfriend or whatever but it's not a powerful over
overwhelming mystical unity and so they all end up being to
the extent that they turn into hatred and self-aggrandisement jealousy and all of
those they end up being distortions of reality they're just not
fundamental realities they're distortions and they spread like
crazy the distortions of when we see this in Television over and
over again and we are eating while we are seeing a baby cut in two and things
like these type of Horrors okay what do you think that that how in which way do
you think that this affects our Consciousness and our morals and where
our ethics are going to go where are our morals are going going to go well who
they're going to go is down the toilet because when you see repeated
like babies cutting two and it just eats away that's your own moral and ethical
sense because who's doing that and how are they allowed to do that why is it
happening and why am I always seeing it and it just slowly eats away that's your
ethical stance and that's one of the horrors of
a history that is fundamentally lacking love and is promoting self promotion and
self aggrandisement self-aggression and so on um and unfortunately that is the
story of history and it's war after war after War
one historian calculated that for every one year of Peace in humankind's history
there have been 13 years of war now just think about that and think
about the constant influence of this war like Sensations that we're getting and
it's interrupted every now and then by one year of Peace oh thank you very much
that's wonderful I can't thank my God enough for that one year it's just
terrible it is it is it is there what that means is not everybody's
perspective is being honored very few perspectives are being
honored just my perspective and my land and get off of my land or I'll kill you
and that's what 13 years of human history have been about for every one
year of peace and it's just horrifying but it's the truth and it's just something that
human beings have to deal with and that's why it is so difficult for
evolution to keep on going because you know it's a regression all the time we
evolve and then we regress and then we evolve and then we regress and it's like
evolution is trying to really push it on and it's not easy that's why we are only
five or s% of the population the human population which are really you know
trying to take everyone there and it's so difficult because when it seems that
we are really going a little bit then again it's it's impressive it's really
impressive um how do you see the role of the United
States and Europe that are playing in this horrendous conflict or crisis or
War whatever we want to call it Israel Palestine and what else do you think
that the United States or Europe could be doing in this
situation well um I hate to sort of be repetitive but
the one thing that all world leaders need to do is actually
lead and that means they have to be an example to all of their
followers and that means they have to take into account the perspectives of
virtually everybody and that means they take an integral
viewpoint it and it's it's easy enough to say but
you can also teach an integral Viewpoint you can teach well there's
this perspective and there's this perspective and there's this perspective you can start with the four quadrants
you cannot teach to the ones that do not want to hear right that's right and
that's the problem that's a problem but and so but the question has to do with
they say in general what I've heard is that the European community and the
westerns in general are not doing enough to like we are like holding back
like the United States which always has been very uh helping you know the the
the peace and helping you know the oppress and helping now it's kind of like this
and Europe is kind of like this and nobody is really doing
anything to to to stop this catastrophe this that's catastrophe that's true you
go you see that you go people are like this that means I'm not g to look at it
the way you see it I'm not going to take Europe's perspective I'm not going to
take another State's perspective I'm just
not and so we refuse to take an integral
Viewpoint and that's something we actually do we actually refuse it
because we all have the capacity to take these many perspectives we can all look
at the world through four major quadrants or four major perspectives and
each of those quadrants has a different perspective so we actually have eight zones of different perspectives and we
can adopt any one of those zones fairly easily and if we know that there are
people out there that are looking at the world through these different perspectives that are represented in
four quadrants and eight zones then we know what perspectives we should take if
we want to see the world the way others are seeing and when we see the world through
a different perspectives then that'll be part of our leadership because we say oh I have to
talk to that perspective oh and I have to talk to that person and their perspective and I have to talk to that
person and each of them are seeing the world differently and I know that and I
can take their perspective and when I do that I'll I'll talk to them and I'll
provide leadership for them and they'll trust me because I can see the world the
way they're seeing the world and so if we have real leadership and that's
something that I think people intuitively respect like when we see an
American running for president and we listen to them talk or debate we can
tell the ones that have a very wide perspective we can just feel it
that they're looking at the world the way I'm looking at the world or they're
trying to and they're talking to that and I can spot that and I like
that I think that's one of the thing that was so impressive about John
Kennedy for example is he really talked to people and people
adored him he was just loved um and occasionally somebody will
come on the political scene that has that capacity and we really respond to
them so it is it can be done and what of course in my wildest
pipe dreams what I would like to see is a school for politicians where they can
actually learn how to take on these different perspectives and learn
I proposed I proposed that in
1985 oh EXC a school for politicians and yet because I don't have any money to
promote such a thing I never arrived anywhere because you need to have money
to make marketing and to really let the politicians know that you exist
right that's right and unfortunately that's not something that
happens and another problem that we're dealing with we' talked about the
psychotherapeutic contributions to this problem on the side of both Hamas and
Israel they both have psychotherapeutic issues yes and that
means issues with anger hatred aggression jealous Jey Envy attack modes
and so on and you actually have to address those Shadow issues yes so that
people can learn oh I see that I have that I don't want to have that I will
stop having that they and we have to put pretty much all of Hamas and all of
Israel through a Psychotherapy session or several and
without that they're not the individual Soldier who's killing the baby or
stabbing the woman or shooting people they're not going to stop doing that if
they've still got the impulse arising to do that and that puts an enormous strain
on this problem and it's one of the reason that the Israeli Arab problem is so recal and so
unyielding and has been around for so long and shows
no chance of resolving that there neither side is
willing to do what's necessary to give it up and that is just an impossible
psychotherapeutic mess um and I understand 100% what you
say and I agree and um there is an issue that let's see what do
you think about which is the energetic issue like for example when people look
at the TV and they see all this horror right and they go into the reflection of
their own shadow when they see that right they judge how horrible they are I hate these
ones I hate the others I and all the reflection of the Shadow
comes in in oh I am fearful or am I going to die or they're going to kill me
or whatever okay so it's like a reflection of their of the own shadow
that they see so I always say let's see what do you think I always say don't do
that because if you do that you are adding
energetically the same thing thing that you are receiving therefore don't do
what don't do what don't judge don't do be fearful
don't do hate do you know all these negative things that people send to
Netanyahu or to Hamas or to whatever I say don't do that because you are adding
negativity to negativity that's negativity to the square
so if you don't do that if you are able to see that and send
love you are changing the energy you are
transmuting at least the energy giving a chance
energetically to that netan jahu to that Hamas to
receive waves of love and if they do receive waves of love maybe
sometime they will get a little bit of that and a neuron will open to light and
then they will say oh I'm not going to kill this woman or they will say uh I'm
going to take psychotherapy uh or they will do something different yet if we don't do that of
every time we see this in the TV if we don't send love and we keep on sending hatred and
judgment and fear and all these negative things we are contributing to the
negativity of the conflict and of the war and of the problem and we are
killing the woman of the baby and and we are responsible then of maintaining the
craziness would you say that and what that really implies is virtually every
person who's involved in what you're saying needs some form of
psychotherapy because it's usually only in a psychotherapeutic situation where a
person will look at their negative netive feelings and in a sense judge them as
negative correctly judge them as negative and then seek to replace that
negative with a positive so if they feel hate they'll learn to replace it with
love they feel jealousy they'll learn to embrace it with
appreciation and so on and it's in the psychotherapeutic setting that they
actually learn to see see and make those changes and that's what Psychotherapy is
changing all of your negatives for positives and that means you have to
recognize all your negatives your jealousy your envy your hatred you're
you know on and on and you have to recognize them when they come up in
regard to therapists and you have to talk about them and then you have to say okay I don't want to Express that hatred
I want to feel love and you actually practice replacing hatred with love and
when you complete that process fairly well that's the end of psychotherapy
you're finished you you've completed the course you can get out of here now um
but that's what's so important about Psychotherapy is it it really is almost
the only setting where human beings practice replacing negativity with
positivity yeah and that's no matter what form you're working with Freudian Yan G stal it doesn't matter they all
aim at doing that that and that's what makes it such an especially important
Endeavor in which way do you think that Western Civilization has contributed to
the the hatred that radical Islam has against westerners in which way and why
would you say that many people are also against the Jews and why also the West
criticizes Muslims in general right well
what the Western contribution has been to this ownership
mentality of somebody saying God gave this land to
me this is my land you have no right to be here ownership no yeah and and that's
just bad that ownership mentality is just it divides the earth
up in the little segments and puts Hors on each one and the owners don't like
any of the other owners and it's just s and for whatever reason that got a
real start in the west and of course culminated in like a Marxist notion of
ownership is capitalism and all of the things that are wrong with that
supposedly um and as for why would you say that many people are also against
the Jews that's just standard anti-Semitism and that goes back back at
least five or 6,000 years in the west and it got its start with beliefs such
as Jews killed Jesus and they're worth hating that we
don't want anything to do with them and also Jews were allowed
to bank money and to loan money and many
people saw that is evil and Jews were just the source of all of that evil um
so there are a lot of causes to anti-Semitism but it's a very well
recognized human fault and it just seems to spring up
almost wherever Jews are because some of these ideas about loaning money or
killing Christ or something always pop up with them and and each of those ideas
lends a hate hatred or negativity to the atmosphere and Jews are the cause of
that so we hate them and that's just the way that goes um and then and why the
West criticizes Muslims in general that can be
traced almost almost all forms of hatred can be traced to some minor minor
truth so you can make a case that Jews
killed Christ it was the Jewish leaders that predominantly brought
charges against Jesus and turned them into the Romans so you can make a small
truth out of that case and the small truth from the
Muslims comes from the Quran because large portions of the
Quran instill War lordship they instill a worship of
war and fighting and killing and that's
I mean Mohammad notoriously went to those sections when
he felt problem seized and he would get on his warlord ship horse and go out and
kill people um and people reacted to
that they didn't like that warriorship part of Muslim
code um and again it was based on a small amount of
truth but it was a truth they could dependably turn to and find good reason
to hate those War loving Muslims um and I mean and I I say we're
what we're looking at when we talk about these negatives are just a list of the
number of negatives that humans are open to and then when we look at those what
we find is that history is just dominated by those negatives they give
us 13 years of war every one year of peace and that's just that that's a very
sad commentary on the Human Condition absolutely absolutely absolutely you
know regarding the the Westerner seen by the Muslims uh don't you think that they see
the west and and also I think Russians as well not only the Muslims but also
Russians for example they see the west and they hate the West for reasons maybe
like not a consistent uh and
maintained uh argument and and Manner and and politics and because it seems
that the West all of a sudden wants this and now wants this and it they are we
are not maintaining as westerners like a sound consistency and a sound uh reality
that can be our Western truth no we are
divided we are fragmented everyone thinks differently so there
is I think they see in US little
truth um little something that they can say okay that's what they think we like
it or not but that's what they think no it's like they get crazy because one day
we say one thing and another day we say another thing and we pardon the the the
the the Deb of this but not of this and and so they don't go where to go they
don't know where with what where to stand with us no don't you think that
that has also something to do with the hatred of the Muslims toward the west
and and Russians yeah um in large part it's because the West
does have so many different ideas and it's it's sometimes amazing
that they can call all of them being West because the only thing should we
call like that by democracy what in the world then is democracy if democracy
doesn't have a real truth to it and if he doesn't have a real principles of
behavior and thoughts and and manners you know that's what it doesn't hold on
it's true that we are very large population let's say and yet if we are
democratic why aren't we more
united yeah um and about the only thing that the West has in common is that it's
been fairly economically successful so it's come down to it's a
fairly wealthy economic system and that's more or less true there are plenty of poor
people in the west and plenty of hungry people but it's been the hunger in the
west has been reduced much of it in the last 30 years to where it's less than
10% of the population and that's amazing and that's
largely because we are fairly wealthy and we can afford to pay off
poverty and but that's about it um not
everybody believes in the same philosophy not everybody believes in the
same approach to politics certainly not everybody believes in the same approach
to religion um so that's a real problem for the West um
and um there was a century the 17th and
18th century where virtually every Western country was at war with every
other Western country and it was just you know not
only the Hundred Years War The War of the Roses but it was just the French versus the German the English
versus the P um Hungary versus Poland I mean
everybody was at everybody's throats yeah that was not exactly a
unified condition um so it's funny that the West
has nonetheless emerged as a fairly unified
place um and um although it still doesn't have a
unified philosophy or anything like that uh so
um that's just the history of the West um and we still call it the US and
that's makes no sense but it's very unreal the truth right without any doubt
can we are in a moment of terrible Despair and horror regarding peace and
commitment to Human Rights and people's well-being so what's your integrated
personal intuition and gut feeling about the future of this escalation of
violence and absurdity that doesn't really show any evolution of human
consciousness at all yeah um I think it's definitely a close
call um and it very well might be that we go through um a period of increasing
violence and aggression and um more even more
yeah um but in the long run we do have Evolution on our side
because everything that goes from moment to moment transcends and includes the previous
moment and that transcend and include is involving principles of love
and inclusion and care and concern
and that's why if we look at the Long Haul of Western history we see a
dramatic increase in degrees of belongingness and
care and loving um the West 2,000 years
ago was a very barbaric and belligerent and at War
place um Roman Empire everywhere um picking on everybody and
and killing people left and right um
and that's been our history but each year it seems to get a little bit
better and a little bit better and a little bit better um so when we get to
the 20th century we have three major Wars World War I World War II and the Korean
War and then if you have Vietnam and so on um but those all were ended fairly
peacefully and the countries came back together and we move forward so I sort
of see a continuation of that kind of pattern of there being possibilities of
more Wars and more aggression but in the long haul we get
over them and love Peaks out and Care
Peaks out and evolution evolves and that's one of the amazing
things about evolution is it's an inherent drive to
betterness and that's an actual force in the universe the evolutionary Drive is a
real existing physical Force it's like gravity and
electromagnetism and heat and love that's correct and those are actual
physical existing reality forces and because those forces are an
inherent part of the universe we're going to continue
evolving things are going to in some broads set get better and better and
better um and and Lord only knows the
impact that our increasingly sophisticated
technology is going to play in this um
but technology certainly has a capacity to increase the betterment of
humankind and so we've got that working for us as well um but there can always
be ups and downs in this uh and I don't expect those to go
away uh so could could we say that all which is happening its part of
evolution yeah I do um both the good and the
bad yeah yeah so could you uh dare to
give a date on the better men of
humanity well I mean if we look at the overall history of of
life I mean we did start out as single cell one cell
organisms and and look at and it went to multicellular organisms go so
far and and that went to um fish and
amphibians and then reptiles and then mammals and then humans and then a whole
string of human life that got progressively more sophisticated and smarter and better and more loving and
more caring and for certain periods of that more belligerent and more war
loving and then they we go through Wars and drop them and then come back together and more loving and
caring um I would say um until we get to a fairly paradisical
state that I would give it about 100
years okay so we will not see it no I don't I don't think so I think
we'll see glimmers of it because as we're continuing to move towards it and
then we have little regressions and then we bump down and then we go move back up
and so as we'll see several move back up
phases as we move towards the paradisical state so I think we'll see a
couple more those oh thank God at least we have some hope right
that before we die hey you know I always say that the ones that do have mystical
experiences we are very lucky yes we are very lucky because I
cannot imagine how life would be without
this deep experience of something else
right you know so I really thank you know my inner experience I really thank
it and to you to you that you have put you have been so wonderful with all your
books and your love to give us words for all that you know I really I'm really
grateful because now I can even you know like name it and put names to it and and
recognize it and and say yes I have that yes I seen that yes I hold that in
myself and yes I experience these four quadrants and yes I feel them emerging
in me that's why I say you know to the people in my consultation or to anyone
that wants to listen to me it's like hey do this effort of loving loving
everything whether is positive or negative energy just do the effort
because it's G to bring you back a lot it's G to give you back much better
results than if you hate or if you judge or if you feel all the time fearful or
hatred right so anyway would would you like to
add something else cand deer like a call for peace or
whatever whatever oh I just like to leave people with the general notion
that things are headed in a positive good direction we are
evolving and as we look at overall Evolution we see ups and downs we do and
so if we go through a slight down period that's okay it's not going to be forever
it's going to turn around and head back up and that it's going in that direction
and it's going up and up and up um and I can only imagine what increasing
technology is going to do for that particularly when we get general
intelligence artificial intelligence that I mean we have robots that can talk
to us and understand us and vice versa I mean that would be great oh
yeah I think like we have telephones now you know mobile phones we will have a
robot in our home so that we can talk with someone that we think we feel that
understands us because I think that is one of the most desire deep desires of
human beings is to have someone that may understand what we are
saying I think that's right um and so
that's just gonna continue and get greater and greater and greater um we've
seen artificial intelligence just explode in the last decade or two um
it's really doing an En enormous number of things including many things that we
thought were not possible like translating well between languages oh
yeah that's impressive and it's it's very impressive what's happening on
the it's takes off my job because I was
a translator so it took my job and yet
it's part of evolution right it's part of well okay now I dedicate myself to
something else right I have to look for another you know like task for me right
I will have more time to meditate more
right okay my dear super thank you I really appreciate this time with you as
always it's been a real pleasure to be with you yeah it's been bless you thanks a lot
and above all to leave us with this sensation of Nothing is for nothing in
the sense of everything has a reason and evolution has its own reason
so thank you thank you for being with us today okay thank you byebye bye bye love
bye
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