2020/10/30

Religious Society of Friends troubled by recent posts that denigrate religious faith

(1) Religious Society of Friends

 
I'm deeply troubled by recent posts to this forum that denigrate religious faith. Perhaps I need to share my own background to spell out in detail where my religious journey has taken me and how I've ended up where I am today.
I was raised a lukewarm United Methodist, by a mother who was a lukewarm United Methodist. As I have become an adult, I've realized that my mother's faith was shattered by the tragic death of an older sister when she was barely in her teens. You may ask why myself and my two sisters were taken back to church at a young age. It is just what one does in the Bible Belt, and sadly many parents go through the motions or use church as a glorified babysitting service. I think the intentions of both my parents were good. I think they wanted to raise myself and my two sisters as moral beings.
As a teenager, I rejected religion as many adolescents do. I then spent nearly a decade as a Unitarian Universalist, until I came to view them as hopeless post-modernists, often with the same bitterness, spite, and bile I held.
I am 40 now. I became a Friend at 28, and reevaluated my initial resentment at organized religion, finding great value and wisdom in religion, particularly the Bible. Since then, I have tried to be tolerant of how Spirit manifests itself in others, particularly in my own Meeting. But again, I must stress that the sort of intolerance I've found in others is deeply discouraging. I know a former Catholic who has gone as far as to have her baptism and communion revoked.
Religion is not the root of all evil. While it is true that I was dragged along to a Southern Baptist church when I was at the most potent point of finding my own identity, these people visited me in the hospital in my many stays. They will almost certainly not vote the way I will in a matter of days, but they honor the value of community and tending one's flock, virtues which more liberal faiths tend to shirk.
We can learn a ton from their example.
Comments
  • Lori Paton thank you Kevin
  • Muriel Edgerton Kevin Camp My faith history is very different than yours, but I resonate deeply with where you are now. I too grieve when I read posts for a group that calls itself the Religious Society of Friends which speak of other faiths and other belief systems iSee more
  • Thomas Leverett When I became a Quaker my father said, "Well, at least it's not an organized religion..."
  • Kenn Orphan I was raised in a conservative pentecostal faith and went to a Nazarene college. I never felt a "part of the flock" because I had to hide who I truly was or I be quite literally kicked out.

    In my experience it has been the more liberal churches and meetings that have been more embracing of me for who I am. So I feel quite the opposite. I think it is the ultra conservative faiths who need to do the most learning.
  • Marsha Kitamura Interesting. I felt what you wrote. Yes, the value of community is one of the compelling attributes to more conservative Christians. However, the exclusion of anybody is an ignorant tunnel vision that Is directly opposite of the teachings of Jesus. Jesus was a rebel. He believed in social change. Love was his message...not just for some but for all.
  • Mark Deramo Thank you for sharing. I have had mixed experiences with organized religion; there was a very brief time that I attended an evangelical (Biblical literalism) church. I was struck by how much the church community cared about each other, but I was alsoSee more

Self-righteous hypocrisy — NewBuddhist

Self-righteous hypocrisy — NewBuddhist

Self-righteous hypocrisy
techie India Veteran
April 2017 edited April 2017 in General Banter


We can't sit quietly in a room for twenty minutes. We become restless, we panic. We check the phone messages, watch tv, read a book, chat with friends. We can't even find peace with ourselves.

Yet we want world peace.

We become the judge and jury, and declare that certain individuals (or nations, religions) are destroying the world. Were it not for them, life would be beautiful. Or so we think. Hypocrisy? Certainly.

Worse yet, it is born of a self-righteous attitude - that one is better than the rest.

Less judging, more understanding.

What we need is humility, not the arrogance of a self-righteous mind.

This too is Buddhism.




Comments

federica Seeker of the clear blue sky... Its better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak out and remove all doubt Moderator
April 2017


You're preaching to the choir, bud.



Kerome Love, love is mystery The Continent Veteran
April 2017


The mind is a curious thing, you need to do certain basics before focussing on stilling it. That resolving of inner conflicts, releasing of needs and desires, allows you to get to a point of beneficial coherence and peace.

I believe it is only after you reach that real point, of pruning the mind, that the stilling and the process of marshalling concentration and meditation becomes truely fruitful.



karasti Breathing Minnesota Moderator
April 2017


Everyone is in a different place. Someone who isn't capable of understanding what you even mean isn't yet capable of putting it into action. Don't you ever wonder why it seems like we seem to be almost different species for the ways we view the world? What makes us all so different? Our experiences in life, for sure, but I think "causes and conditions" also includes our previous rebirths. This is the only thing that makes sense to me to explain why some people simply do not understand things different ways while others are able to see many different perspectives. I don't think it is solely a choice. I think some people just are not capable of doing so.

Why do some people always believe what they are told and others don't believe anything they are told? Why when you read through all the threads here, do you see so many common comments, themes, attitudes etc but they exist relatively few in many areas of the Western world? We might think everyone would benefit from Buddhism yet there are those who simply cannot comprehend the teachings no matter how much you try to explain it. Does every single person, right now in this life time, have the same ability to break through that? I am not so sure they do. They have the potential, yes. I don't think it is always a matter of refusing to do so. I think there are a lot of people who simply can't do it yet. A broad perspective of the world requires a lot of complex issues. When someone's perspective is "God is good and everything else is evil" they aren't interested in the bigger picture. There is a reason they can't answer the confusing questions we often demand of them. And then we simply label them as stupid for being unable to do so (like so many Trump voters). It's not a matter of intelligence but I think the causes and conditions to our station and beliefs about life goes a lot farther than just where we live, how we were raised, etc.

Anyhow, my point is that I think we waste a lot of time trying to figure out why people are the way they are.


genkaku Northampton, Mass. U.S.A. Veteran
April 2017


When it comes to improvements, I think one that stands near, if not at, the front of the line is, "Stop using the word "we." It is both smarmy and presumptuous and diverts attention from MY very real problems. Group-think may be sweet and cuddly and camouflaging, but its effectiveness is questionable.



Buddhadragon Ehipassiko & Carpe Diem Samsara Veteran
April 2017 edited April 2017



@techie said:
We can't sit quietly in a room for twenty minutes. We become restless, we panic. We check the phone messages, watch tv, read a book, chat with friends. We can't even find peace with ourselves.

Yet we want world peace.

We become the judge and jury, and declare that certain individuals (or nations, religions) are destroying the world. Were it not for them, life would be beautiful. Or so we think. Hypocrisy? Certainly.

Worse yet, it is born of a self-righteous attitude - that one is better than the rest.

Less judging, more understanding.

What we need is humility, not the arrogance of a self-righteous mind.

This too is Buddhism.

First of all, I don't identify with some parts of the speech.
Second, I know many people who don't fit that description either.
Third, this is as much Buddhism as it could be anything else.
Fourth.... oh yes, we are human: ongoing works in progress and deserving of compassion.
Thank you for the reminder



lobster Veteran
April 2017



@techie said:
Less judging, more understanding.

What we need is humility, not the arrogance of a self-righteous mind.

This too is Buddhism.

I'll join

Who is the judge in Dharma?
Me.
Which can be a little humbling.
However with sufficient understanding, the verdict is always, 'Innocent even if guilty'.
This is too Buddhist?



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Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind: Kurzban, Robert: 9780691154398: Amazon.com: Books

Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind: Kurzban, Robert: 9780691154398: Amazon.com: Books



Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind Paperback – May 27, 2012
by Robert Kurzban  (Author)
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 ----
We're all hypocrites. Why? Hypocrisy is the natural state of the human mind.


Robert Kurzban shows us that the key to understanding our behavioral inconsistencies lies in understanding the mind's design. The human mind consists of many specialized units designed by the process of evolution by natural selection. While these modules sometimes work together seamlessly, they don't always, resulting in impossibly contradictory beliefs, vacillations between patience and impulsiveness, violations of our supposed moral principles, and overinflated views of ourselves.


This modular, evolutionary psychological view of the mind undermines deeply held intuitions about ourselves, as well as a range of scientific theories that require a "self" with consistent beliefs and preferences. Modularity suggests that there is no "I." Instead, each of us is a contentious "we"--a collection of discrete but interacting systems whose constant conflicts shape our interactions with one another and our experience of the world.


In clear language, full of wit and rich in examples, Kurzban explains the roots and implications of our inconsistent minds, and why it is perfectly natural to believe that everyone else is a hypocrite.


---
Editorial Reviews
Review
"Highly recommended."---Jessica Palmer, Bioephemera blog

"Kurzban brilliantly (and often hilariously) breaks down the system of functional modules, explaining their existence through evolution, and their hypocrisy through a lack of communication. Why Everyone (Else) is a Hypocrite delves into a part of psychology that has famously been ignored by many prominent members in the field."---Haley M. Dillon and Rachael A. Carmen, Journal of Social, Evolutionary, and Cultural Psychology

"We're all inconsistent and self-deceiving, says evolutionary psychologist Robert Kurzban. Our modular minds didn't evolve for consistency, but for patchwork multitasking. . . . As Kurzban says, understanding how and why we can be so 'ignorant, wrong, irrational, and hypocritical' may help us work towards a fairer society."---Susan Blackmore, BBC Focus

"With wit, wisdom, and occasional hilarity, Robert Kurzban offers explanations for why we do the things we do, such as morally condemning the sale of human organs and locking the refrigerator at night to keep from snacking. . . . Kurzban touches on some complex topics in a manner that's both smart and accessible. He incorporates a plethora of psychological studies to support his theories but the narrative is never dry. . . . By challenging common assumptions about habits, morality, and preferences, Kurzban keeps readers both entertained and enlightened.", Foreword Reviews

"[Kurzban] argues that . . . internal conflicts are not limited to extreme cases; they occur in everyone's brains, leading to illogical beliefs and contradictory behaviors. That's not necessarily a bad thing, according to Kurzban. In fact, being selectively irrational may give us an evolutionary advantage."---Kacie Glenn, Chronicle of Higher Education

"Using humour and anecdotes, [Kurzban] reveals how conflict between the modules of the mind leads to contradictory beliefs, vacillating behaviours, broken moral boundaries and inflated egos. He argues that we should think of ourselves not as 'I' but as 'we'--a collection of interacting systems that are in constant conflict.", Nature

"[T]here is much that is valuable in Kurzban's book."---Peter Carruthers, Trends in Cognitive Sciences

"Kurzban is a luminary in the growing discipline of evolutionary psychology. . . . [P]rovocative. . . . Kurzban devotes much space to explicating and demonstrating ways in which his theory plays out in our everyday lives.", Library Journal

"Robert Kurzban has used his view of evolutionary psychology to pursue the concept of 'self' at the heart of both the discipline of psychology and the everyday understanding of human behavior--which surely is of interest to everyone. . . . The book itself is fresh. Kurzban's style is to take traditional questions and apparently reasonable positions and then demonstrate that reasonableness is actually only so under a set of assumptions--and that if they do not conform to the modularity hypothesis then we ought to rethink."---Tom Dickins, Times Higher Education

"Robert Kurzban believes that we are all hypocrites. But not to worry, he explains, hypocrisy is the natural state of the human mind. In his book Why Everyone (Else) Is a Hypocrite: Evolution and the Modular Mind, Kurzban asserts that the human mind consists of many specialized units, which do not always work together seamlessly. When this harmony breaks down, people often develop contradictory beliefs."---Victoria Stern, Scientific American Mind
Review
"In this amazing book, Robert Kurzban carries out a brilliantly thought-provoking conversation with himself that made me think hard―and laugh out loud. Using clever examples and a revolutionary scientific approach, he shows that contradiction is truly a fundamental human experience. No wonder, then, that I wanted to share this book with my friends―but I also wanted to keep it for myself! If you don't read this book, you'll be left wondering what everyone (else) is talking about."―James H. Fowler, coauthor of Connected: The Surprising Power of Our Social Networks and How They Shape Our Lives
From the Back Cover
"Robert Kurzban is one of the best evolutionary psychologists of his generation: he is distinctive not only for his own successful research and sophisticated understanding of psychology, but also because of his wit--Kurzban is genuinely clever, sly, succinct, and sometimes hilarious."--Steven Pinker, Harvard University

"In this amazing book, Robert Kurzban carries out a brilliantly thought-provoking conversation with himself that made me think hard--and laugh out loud. Using clever examples and a revolutionary scientific approach, he shows that contradiction is truly a fundamental human experience. No wonder, then, that I wanted to share this book with my friends--but I also wanted to keep it for myself! If you don't read this book, you'll be left wondering what everyone (else) is talking about."--James H. Fowler, coauthor of Connected: The Surprising Power of Our Social Networks and How They Shape Our Lives

"Here is a fun counterpoint to the explosion of examples showing that humans do not act in accordance with the predictions of standard rational models. But Kurzban is no defender of the standard models. Rather he seeks an understanding of why our actions may appear contradictory in particular contexts, but serve us well in others, and why that helps to improve our fitness for decision, if not always for a life of liberty."--Vernon L. Smith, Nobel Laureate in Economics

About the Author
Robert Kurzban is associate professor of psychology and founder of the Pennsylvania Laboratory for Experimental Evolutionary Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. In 2008, he won the inaugural Distinguished Scientific Award for Early Career Contribution from the Human Behavior and Evolution Society.
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Item Weight : 14 ounces
Paperback : 288 pages
ISBN-10 : 0691154392
ISBN-13 : 978-0691154398
Product Dimensions : 6 x 0.7 x 9.1 inches
Publisher : Princeton University Press; Reprint edition (May 27, 2012)
Language: : English
Best Sellers Rank: #159,085 in Books (See Top 100 in Books)
#81 in Evolutionary Psychology
#481 in Medical Cognitive Psychology
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Robert Kurzban received his PhD from the Center for Evolutionary Psychology at the University of California, Santa Barbara, and did postdoctoral work in economics and anthropology. In 2008, he won the inaugural Distinguished Scientific Award for Early Career Contribution from the Human Behavior and Evolution Society.
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evolutionary psychology everyone else else is a hypocrite human mind human behavior optical illusions robert kurzban press secretary natural selection reading this book modular view anyone interested even though part of the brain introduction to evolutionary modular mind quite a bit moral principles contradictory beliefs ways of looking

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Daniel Chapin
4.0 out of 5 stars I like your book and think it’s an important addition to ...
Reviewed in the United States on May 29, 2018
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Hey Robert, what’s the deal with the Libertarian morality claim at the end of the book? While reading I was (and still am) onboard with your main argument, but then all of the sudden..bam...a totally unexpected high moral claim about the righteousness of individual liberty. Although I wouldn’t say this undermines the credibility of your thesis, neither did I see how your turn was supported by your argument. If anything, you caved into the modularity induced delusions your book elucidates.

Anyway, I like your book and think it’s an important addition to the knowledge-base of anyone who wishes to gain a clearer understanding of less-than-subjective reality.
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Steve Brooks
4.0 out of 5 stars Unifies many behavior theories, much work to be done
Reviewed in the United States on August 11, 2012
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The title - Why Everyone (else) is a Hypocrite - is a little misleading. What Kurzban is trying to do is unify a lot of behavioral theories with the modular concept of the mind.

Why Everyone (else) is a Hypocrite challenges assumptions about "self" and "consciousness." The modular view of the brain is introduced, with interesting analogies to computer science, and then using the modular view reviews commonly held assumptions about how the brain functions. Rather than one person simultaneously holding two contradictory believes, dualism is explain by the module view as two different modules reaching contradictory conclusions.

The modular view of the brain is simple to get, just extend the concept of brain hemispheres. It is unknown how many modules there are or which modules are connected. Modules are like apps on a phone; they contain local information and only pass certain information to other modules (some don't communicate).

Only certain modules communicate with the "consciousness" module. Rather than think of your consciousness as the part that controls you, consider your consciousness the spokesman.

So much of human life is determined by social beliefs rather than absolute fact that the human mind evolved to be "strategically wrong." The spokesperson is feed information that spins the story in the best possible light for winning mates and friends.

Sometimes it is better not to know, cases where modules not sharing information is a strategic advantage. Often it is advantageous for the consciousness (the spokesman) to be positively biased while internal modules rely on more accurate information.

There is a social price to pay for knowingly and outwardly being self-interested. But if you don't know how your behavior impacts others, you can't be accused of being self-interested.

Sometimes operating on biases information is an advantage. We tend to attribute success to our abilities and failure to chance. This self bias is detrimental in objective situations, but in subjective situations (we evolved in a subjective world) being convinced of your own abilities is beneficial. Your overconfidence can influence how others calculate the odds of your future success and longevity (the key to being a good friend or mate).

We don't have set preferences, decisions are calculated on the fly. Patient modules and impatient models. Based on context (historical - think pavolog's dog, environmental, and internal). Willpower is really just an effortmeter, it tries to determine if it is worth the effort to continue. Reset effortmeter by reward - food, praise.

Kurzban addresses morality last - here are the most unanswered questions and controversy. First Kurzban illustrates who contradictory our morals around sex and drugs are. We can't really explain why our morals, our explanations are just rationalization. What we really want to do is control other people. Different modules explain why we condemn behaviors in others, but do them ourselves (there is nothing in our brains that forces us to adopt one universal moral code). The universal disdain for hypocrisy is a evolutionary code of law - its purpose is to make others follow the rules they set for others.
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Aretae
5.0 out of 5 stars Best book on Psychology yet written
Reviewed in the United States on January 18, 2012
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If you want a single psychological/cog-sci model to understand the world...there is NOTHING written that does better than this book. I say this having read most of the other choices.

Pinker, Haidt, Seligman, Miller, Kahneman, Brooks, Gladwell, Minsky, Lyubomirsky, Damasio, Freud, Vygotsky, Hofstadter ... whatever. I liked many of their books...but this is SO much better.

This is a better book. Partly it's better because the core hypothesis and scientific underpinning is better...and partly because it's more fun to read.

Core line: It's fairly obvious to modern psychology that the notion of the unitary self is absurd, and completely unsupportable. Rather, the "self" is a collection of modules that are connected to one another in various ways, think a committee. The part of your self that is verbal and that you think of as "self" is probably best understood as the brain-committee's press secretary...but the idea that you have access to your decision-making process in 98% of all decisions you make is ROFL funny. Your brain-committee makes a decision, and your verbal press-secretary "you"-module makes up (words used advisedly, because that's really what happens) reasons after the fact.

I read the Kindle edition, where it is hard to follow the chapter endnotes..
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Daniel Capote
5.0 out of 5 stars I think this is one of the first great works of the 21st century
Reviewed in the United States on October 27, 2015
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I think this is one of the first great works of the 21st century. While it does not contain any new theories it neatly and succinctly explains evolutionary psychology basics with beginner friendly examples (at least as friendly as can be for such a dense book). Having said that it is very dense and might not be the best first book on evolutionary psychology for those beginning their studies in evolutionary psychology. Chapter six is very dense and is replete with experiments that have been carried out and may not be easy to understand for beginners in psychological research. One might benefit from reading this book several times as the information becomes easier to understand with multiple readings.
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Michael Stanford
5.0 out of 5 stars Explains how minds work, and how they got that way
Reviewed in the United States on April 25, 2019
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Critics of evolutionary psychology often dismiss it as a bunch of baseless suppositions. But obviously the mind did evolve, and the evidence is very strong that it is abundantly more modular than Freud's ego, superego and id. This book really does explain why everybody (else) is a hypocrite, and a lot more besides. And it's funny!
If you are interested in the workings of human consciousness, this book is a must-read.
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Amazon Customer
4.0 out of 5 stars The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, but the parts still have a role to play. Good read.
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on January 29, 2017
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I found this book enjoyable to read, full of wit and useful information. It builds an interesting picture of the modularity of mind. Demonstrating how the mind is often divided with conflicting interest (not dual), which is backed up by various interesting examples, from an evolutionary perspective.
The title of this book is likeable to analogy we can all relate to.. I can hold my hands up and say I have (and will be again) been hypocritical and contridictory, on many occasions, but I've not always been able to put my finger on why - until I read this book.
However, I may not be the most enlightened reader (work in progress, I'm reading on it), but something tells me there's a lot of people trying to convince the readers of books like this one, that the mind (even in the modular view) is a lot simpler than it really is. In fairness to the author of this book, he's done a great job at providing frame work to help simplify the complexity of the mind, so as to make it more understandable. Sorry, I may have contradicted myself slightly here...
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Natalia G.
5.0 out of 5 stars Five Stars
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on March 14, 2018
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Good Book.
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given masamba
4.0 out of 5 stars Excellent book
Reviewed in the United Kingdom on September 26, 2014
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It is very informative and eye opener . Excellent
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zitronenfalter
3.0 out of 5 stars Man braucht viel Geduld, um dieses Buch zu lesen
Reviewed in Germany on April 10, 2018
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Denn der Autor überschüttet einen mit zu einem grossen Teil aus dem Fernsehen stammenden Geschichten und Zitaten sowie komplett überflüssigen Informationen. Um zu letzteren ein Beispiel zu geben: es geht um einen Thom Gilovich, hinter dessen Namen Kurzban in Klammern einfügt "the latter of whom, I ought to disclose in the spirit of openness, was my statistics instructor at Cornell, and I now consider a friend". Wer will das wissen? Nicht dass das Ganze nicht irgendwie lesens- und bedenkenswert wäre, aber der flapsig daherlabernde Stil legt sich wie eine dicke Pampe über den Inhalt, dass man immer wieder denkt: Bring's auf den Punkt! Weglassen ist die Kunst des guten Schreibers. 1/4 weniger Inhalt, dafür die wichtigen Punkte besser herausgearbeitet, dann wär's ein gutes Buch. Ganz subjektiv fand ich es mühsam zu lesen.
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A. Volk
4.0 out of 5 stars Interesting, but not quite rock-solid
Reviewed in Canada on August 28, 2011
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Kurzban takes on the question of why people are hypocrites. Specifically, how "self-deception" can possibly occur. How can you deceive yourself since you know what you know and thus can't be deceived? Why do people need to hide the cookies from plain sight when they are on a diet? After all, they want to lose weight. Why is there a struggle within one brain? Why do people tend to hold other people to a higher standard than themselves?

To answer these questions, Kurzban turns to evolutionary psychology and the modular hypothesis. Briefly, it states that the brain is made up of many different software packages, each separate from each other. There's software for living long, and there's software for preventing survival. They conflict with each other over diets. Some software modules might not talk to other modules. Some modules might even not want to know about other modules' information, since that information can be costly. Kurzban argues (fairly well in my opinion) that this is especially true for modules that deal with social information. Because it makes no sense to believe you can fly when you can't, and then jump off a building to discover you're wrong. But it might make sense to pretend you can fly an airplane to impress that special girl you just met. Particularly in areas that are hard to objectively measure (e.g., honor, kindness, intelligence), people consistently overrate themselves. Kurzban argues that this is due to our trying to build a strong image of ourselves that will appeal to other people. I found the argument convincing.

So why only four stars? Well, the evidence isn't quite rock-solid. In particular, the last two chapters on morality where weak and speculative. Kurzban also tries a little too hard to be funny in places, when I think this book could have used a slightly more serious tone (or better humor). He also makes some leaps regarding what's going on in the brain areas tied to various cognitive modules when the evidence is still rather scanty in that regard.

Those faults aside, I found this book overall to be an enjoyable read. In particular, Kurzban's ideas about modularity and social popularity are profound, powerful, and worth reading. The flaws in the book don't take away from the overall message, so I don't have a problem recommending this book. Because it is interesting to read about the possibility that "I" am not as unified or in control of "me" as I thought I was. There's hypocrisy in all of us, and this book can shed light on why, making it a worthy read.
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