Mrs. Schiffer’s article very early reveals her opinion on nonviolence. It’s sad to read these kinds of articles because they do little to advance understanding. The article also contains factual errors that lead to misunderstanding.
St. Augustine only supported violence at the behest of the state in certain limited instances. Personal self-defense was to be governed by the Sermon on the Mount. Personal self-defense would not become licit in the Church for another century and a half. The just war arguments offered by Augustine and his mentor Ambrose were from Cicero a first century BC pagan Roman political philosopher.
She states that the conference “rejects Catholic social teaching dating back 1,700 years…”, but fails to admit to the record of that doctrine during those 1,700 years. Can anyone find an example of when the men of our Church refused to support their political leader’s war because it wasn’t just? Did the German Catholics refuse to fight for Hitler? Or Mussolini? Or Horthy? These were leaders of Axis powers who demanded and prosecuted an unjust war, yet we Catholics said yes. Without the Catholics the Axis powers cannot fight that war. We were 40% of Germany, 90% of Italy and high percentages of many of the other Axis powers. If we had been a “just war” Church, how many others would have said “no” too?
If you want to understand your Church’s Just War doctrine and what was discussed at the conference you will have to go elsewhere because Mrs. Schiffer diligently avoids both.
Posted by Manny on Tuesday, Apr 19, 2016 11:29 AM (EDT):
Let me add another comment. In line with Professor who commented below and alluded to St. Francis of Assisi supporting the crusades, also St. Catherine of Siena supported the crusades.
The quote that comes to mind when I think on this is that attributed to Edmund Burke:
“The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing.”
Ultimately you have to trust in yourself with careful exploration of one’s conscience - a developed conscience, isn’t that what Pope Francis has alluded to in other endeavors? - that you are operating on the side of good. Otherwise evil will certainly triumph and send civilization back to the dark ages, as they did once before.
Posted by John Fisher on Tuesday, Apr 19, 2016 12:16 AM (EDT):
“Traditional teaching that he has a right of self-defense, which might eventuate in the death of the invader?” Violence can only be proportionate to the threat. You can’t shoot a Japanese student who happens to walk up the driveway of the wrong house. It happens in the USA. The problem with the USA is you are violence and gun drenched… this is used to be violent and gun drenched polluting the world through TV drama and computer games. The USA has to fix up its own society and not hide behind a silly misinterpreted part of the Constitution. The Constitution did not fall from heaven.
We all have a duty to defend ourselves and others from unjust aggressors. This is Western… but as you know in Islam women and children sit and play with men holding guns and hand grenades. Or in Gaza they fire rockets from tents next to international hotels. People fight dirty and they should be called to justice.
Christian societies are not pacifist and God commands us to fight with justice and in an ethical way. There is a war coming.
All that was once true is now considered wrong to be superseded by that which was wrong. Not because it’s true but because that is how the thinking goes. All that is new is better… but in reality that which is new are old vices writ larger.
Posted by Eli McCarthy on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 11:20 PM (EDT):
Pope Francis actually said regarding ISIS, “I did not say bomb or make war,” and further “the door is always open” even to ISIS. The conference was primarily about deepening the understanding and commitment to Gospel nonviolence. Maintaining the “just war theory” has obstructed our imagination and will to commit to nonviolent practices. We wonder if the Church were to no longer use/teach it, whether that might help draw society closer to less violence sooner. Ultimately, the God that Jesus revealed to us and calls us to model is not consistent with “just war.”
Posted by John Fisher on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 9:53 PM (EDT):
The Crusades were a response to an invitation from the Byzantine Emperor to the Papacy and West asking for help in recovering and defending lands invaded by the Arabs. Do you recall Egypt was invaded by 10,000 Arabs soldiers and since them Christians have been persecuted and killed. The same in Syria, Persia, etc Christians were being attacked and killed on their way to Jerusalem and the Arab Moslem ruler had started to pull down the Church of the Holy Sepulchre from the dome inwards. The rules of war are not followed by Islam. I suggest you read abut this in a magazine called History Today that shows Moslems found more justice and stability under the Franks than their own rulers. Modern weapons are far more accurate than weapons 50 years ago. Unintentional killing of civilians is not a crime.
The Inquisition has been turned into the stuff of legend. The Secular rulers executes religious dissenters as matter of policy. The Church allowed Catholics who fell into heresy to repent. To compare this with what governments do lets look at the guillotine of atheist France after the Revolution. Lets compare Auschwitz or the Soviet Gulag. Lets think of Saudia Arabia where cranes are used to hang people. beheading occur and woman are stoned. Lets look at ISIS. Western society has always needed Christianising and perhaps more so now. How many millions have been butchered and are right now in the abortion factories of the “compassionate caring West”. Wake up!!!!!
Posted by Wally N on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 8:26 PM (EDT):
If the Catholic Church actually starts a war then I think it should be OK. If a nation goes to war against a non Christian entity, likewise, it should be supported. If both sides in a War are Catholics in good standing then the War is not about Christian moral issues and none of the Church’s concern. If the pope supports one side over the other, then the War is obviously warranted.
Posted by Dominic Dinovo on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 2:43 PM (EDT):
I appreciate the need to promote peace. War is destructive and should be the last resort. I understand the value of non-violence in open societies such as the US during the Civil Rights Era. However, I don’t think that non-violence would work in closed albeit controlled societies such as North Korea, where a non-violent protester would simply disappear. What I don’t understand, and perhaps someone can enlighten me on this, - If the Church adopts this proposal, how would the world ever be able to resist another threat such as Nazi Germany? How about the more recent situation with ISIS? I could be mistaken, but didn’t The Holy Father call on the West to use military force in this situation to protect Christians. The Church has long recognized the States solemn responsibility to defend its citizens and those of the innocent who cannot protect themselves. This goes against that fundamental principle and could lead to more death and destruction by nations and organizations that do not abide by this pacifist proposal. Please tell me where my thought process is wrong. I am a seeker of truth. Thank you.
Posted by Professor on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 12:09 PM (EDT):
Loving, sweet and kindly St. Francis of Assisi justified the Crusades in his discourses. I have to abide by the words of multiple saints over the conference delegates. I truly think the conference delegates are saying this through the perspective of the modern aggressive state and not actually contemplating the ‘just war’. Viewed through the military buildups of the USA, USSR and China (among others) the meddling in soveriegn affairs, etc. So I see they are reacting to our contemporary war-like nature and not trying to understand that there are times when , to quote Christ, ‘I do not come to bring peace, but the sword.’ The issue isnt whether or not war is ever right. But rather under what conditions can a ‘just war’ exist. I assume if we abided by the words of the saints, war would be truly rare. But never forget that secular nation states have gotten us into a world of perpetual war at all level and across all intensity levels.
Posted by Andy on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 9:13 AM (EDT):
Pax Christi is just another left wing, socialist organization emboldened by Pope Francis.
Posted by Fr. Basil Cole, OP on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 8:21 AM (EDT):
The teaching on the “just war” is also applicable to an “unjust war” when the conditions are not in place. The Catechism has gone beyond St. Augustine and St. Thomas. yet not denying their thought but finding other conditions necessary for this “last of all options to defend a nation.” It might have been easier to justify a war in the middle ages not today but the skeleton of the “theory” remains as part of a justification or a non-justification.
Posted by Manny on Monday, Apr 18, 2016 7:13 AM (EDT):
No just war? Sounds like we’re going back to an age where Vikings had free rein to sack, murder, and destroy monasteries and the accompanying countryside. If a people and a nation cannot defend itself and stop aggression, then you will have the demise of Christianity. Or more likely, governments who instinctively ignore the Vatican. This is idiocy.
Posted by Maggie McT on Sunday, Apr 17, 2016 6:24 PM (EDT):
I heard about this, and as soon as I read that it was Pax Christi, I understood the message. The problem is that war will happen; we are fallen people. I get that war is a much more difficult to justify because of the weapons. That means we need to think and pray HARDER about how we are to conduct ourselves when facing unjust aggression.
Posted by Dominick on Sunday, Apr 17, 2016 1:15 PM (EDT):
@RS:
I submit that sword-and-spear armies easily became weapons of mass destruction against civilian populations when they got hungry. The same industrialism that makes possible large scale munitions also makes possible freeze-dried and canned foodstuffs—- eliminating the in modern armies the ages-old need to go a-foraging. Perhaps the evils of modern warfare you describe simply represent a transfer, from logistics to weaponry, of the vehicle for civilian terror. Such terror would have been well known in the days of Sts Augustine and Thomas.
Posted by Michael on Sunday, Apr 17, 2016 12:19 PM (EDT):
In Pax Christi’s heretical moral universe, a soldier and an armed police officer is in the same category as an abortionist, and the Church has no more business to assign chaplains to the armed forces than to Planned Parenthood. What would they do to stop the horrendous atrocities committed by ISIS? Absolutely nothing. Non-Muslims have to accept death as the lesser evil than the establishment of the blasphemy of Islam, because the use of lethal force to resist the jihadists is murder.
Posted by Matthew G. Hysell on Sunday, Apr 17, 2016 11:24 AM (EDT):
How disingenuous of Pax Christi, whose theological acumen is on par with Dom Delouise’s on exercise and weight loss.
Of course, this is to be expected from the likes of Gumbleton, et al.
Posted by BHG on Sunday, Apr 17, 2016 8:22 AM (EDT):
The Church permits self defense. It does not demand it.
Posted by Mary from Maryland on Sunday, Apr 17, 2016 7:40 AM (EDT):
One cannot sit by idly while innocent people are being slaughtered. If not for the original Crusades, Europe would be under Sharia law and Christianity would be obliterated in most of the world. One cannot reason or compromise with evil—evil must be destroyed. Should we have also stayed on the side lines and watched as Hitler marched through Europe and Africa and as huge numbers of Jews and others were marched to the gas chambers? I agree that war should be a last resort, but we will never be able to eliminate the need for wars as long as evil exists in the world and in men’s hearts.
Posted by John Fisher on Sunday, Apr 17, 2016 7:06 AM (EDT):
This is false idea. We all have a duty to defend the innocent, to protect ourselves our family and our neighbor. St Augustine was correct and there is a war coming in Europe and anywhere Islam is. The war is not of our making but Islam’s for it is in its very constitution as a sect to attack and subdue non Moslems.
Posted by James on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 5:54 PM (EDT):
This crew gets the credence of the Vatican?
Employing the counter-intuitive model I can only hope this initiative is successful in order that it might definitively expose the insanity at the highest levels of the episcopate.
We are drowning in madness.
Posted by Toni Vercillo on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 5:17 PM (EDT):
The last two paragraphs are the only ones worth taking the time to read.
Posted by Craig on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 4:23 PM (EDT):
Surrendering others to genocide and tyranny so one can maintain their “non-violence” purity is not compassionate, loving or Christian. Indeed, it is absurd and shameful.
Posted by Dominick on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 4:02 PM (EDT):
I have trouble seeing pacifism in the Man who taught that some people ought to be drowned in the sea, knocked over tables and whipped people, and approved of two of his disciples packing heat while admonishing the others to do the same. And while it may not be theologically precise to say that Christ struck down Ananias and Sapphira, He presumably had something to do with it.
Posted by RS on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 2:33 PM (EDT):
To be entirely fair, it was Cardinal Ratzinger (shortly before he was Pope Benedict) who said in 2003, “[G]iven the new weapons that make possible destructions that go beyond the combatant groups, today we should be asking ourselves if it is still licit to admit the very existence of a ‘just war.’ ”
One thinks of the drone strikes, off-shore bombardment and bombing runs used in modern war. Or the landmines, tank rounds and helicopter miniguns. Napalm strikes. Nuclear weapons. The list goes on. Just war’s theoretical legitimacy isn’t the real question here. The real question is, as Ratzinger put it: is it possible for a just war to be conducted TODAY, with weapons built to inflict collateral damage?
Augustine and Aquinas were judging the legitimacy of hand-to-hand sword combat, bows and arrows, cavalry charges and the rest. In this kind of combat, just war principles can be observed much more easily. Whether they can be observed now is an open question.
Posted by Donald Link on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 1:54 PM (EDT):
Just another group of self absorbed heretics, not dissimilar to those that have cropped up over the last two millennia and deserving of no more consideration.
Posted by SouthCoast on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 1:23 PM (EDT):
Lucia, if you can read this response, thank a Crusader.
Posted by Adam on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 1:03 PM (EDT):
You MAY want to change the title, because it makes it seem like the Vatican is no longer teaching the Just war theory (which is false). In fact, Pope Francis used this very doctrine as a reason we can morally take up arms against Islamic extremists.
Posted by Jordan Miller on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 12:03 PM (EDT):
No just war? So God was unjust, then, in not only allowing the Israelites to wage war in Canaan, but also actively helping them to win? God is equally unjust, then, in helping David to be victorious in his various wars?
And it is also unjust to take up arms in defense of one’s own family if viciously attacked? If a village or city is raided by men who intend to rape and kill the inhabitants (which is reality in many places on Earth right now, not just a theoretical example; just ask those in the path of Boko Haram), it is unjust for the people of the village/city to try to defend themselves, even by violence if there is no diplomatic option?
If there is no just war, God himself is guilty of waging unjust war. That alone is enough to reject this. Certainly the application of just war doctrine should be extremely strict; war is always a tragedy, there is no beauty in it, only death. But sometimes, in defense only, it has to be waged. Freely giving one’s own life as a martyr is not the same thing as standing by while those who cannot defend themselves are killed.
There is a general climate right now, encouraged from the top down, of calling into question everything, of re-evaluating everything. Doctrine does develop over time; Newman lays out the classic argument for what constitutes true development, and what constitutes false development.
Posted by Matthew on Saturday, Apr 16, 2016 10:18 AM (EDT):
Does a father have a “right to kill” a home invader? Isn’t the traditional teaching that he has a right of self-defense, which might eventuate in the death of the invader? This might seem like quibbling, but moral theologians have spent a great deal of time talking about the “principle of double effect.”
Posted by Froilan on Friday, Apr 15, 2016 4:17 PM (EDT):
Here’s an idea… let’s keep the timeless teaching of the Catholic Church intact and stop trying to tear the walls down. Just a thought.
Posted by SouthCoast on Friday, Apr 15, 2016 3:42 PM (EDT):
“But in calling for an end to all wars, Pax Christi rejects Catholic social teaching dating back 1,700 years, to the time of St. Augustine.” End of argument. (Further, it should be noted that, in Luke 3:14, when the two soldiers ask the Lord “what shall we do?” He did not tell them to cease being soldiers, merely not to oppress the people and be content with their pay.)
Posted by Seeker of God's Truth on Friday, Apr 15, 2016 3:32 PM (EDT):
The partial statement from the Pontifical Council did not provide their solution to deal with an unjust aggressor or attacker. Do they even have one? What would they do to stop the horrendous atrocities committed by ISIS? Do they want to stand in the front lines of those innocents being hunted down, persecuted and ruthlessly slaughtered to convince ISIS to do otherwise? If so, let us all know how that works out for you.
Posted by Lucia on Friday, Apr 15, 2016 3:12 PM (EDT):
How do you account for the Crusades and the Inquisition?
Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/kschiffer/vatican-conference-on-non-violence-rejects-just-war-theory/#ixzz47z0KZiQG
