Are there Atheist Quakers ?
99 comments
Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin
Bunches, and it can be a contentious issue. I'm a non-theist Quaker. I know of Quakers who are also atheists and agnostics, pagans, Jews, Sikhs, Buddhists, and I have one friend who calls herself a Bu-wish Quaker, (that is, Jewish + Buddhist + Quaker). Others will have run across Quakers of other persuasions.
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Mark Duke
Author
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Mark Duke
Author
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RevCharley Duane Earp
http://www.nontheistfriends.org/
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Jeanmarie Bishop
I'm a Pagan Quaker, married to a Buddhist (Atheist) Quaker. We come in all stripes.
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Beth Bełch
I'm a Pantheist (am I atheist? Am I pagan?) Quaker, married to a Deist Quaker!
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Sarah Kelly
Good question. Thank you for asking 🙂 Yes, many stripes indeed and it's wonderful to hear from others!
I don't know whether I am an atheist or not! I find myself baffled by the concept of an omnipotent god, but I am in awe of and fascinated by the universe, life and people. I find inspiration and insight in many walks of life, religious and others. Living in the far Northern hemisphere, I am attracted to the seasonal rhythm of paganism, but practice Mindful (Buddhist) meditation. Most of all I have the privilege of working closely with people, who let me step into their lives for a little while and walk with them. I have learnt that the human spirit can be amazing!
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Michael Albero
we often are associated with the phrase 'finding that which is of God in others' and Jesus is mentioned in many of the advices and quieries (BYM) but the desire to define WHAT IS GOD has never been at our core and i particularly welcome the capacity of friends to open meetings houses to all enquirers and am more than happy to appreciate all the comments above as manifestations ESPECIALLY those of pagan leaning as I too see what I CALL GOD in the rythyms of life.
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Sarah Kelly
Thank you Michael, you have insight into my atheist dilemma precisely ... it is in the perception of 'WHAT IS GOD'. And I think this is indeed why I feel comfortable and accepted in the community of the Friends.
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Michael Albero
i have just used the following quote for our newsletter, i think it relevant "None of us is as smart as all of us”. Eric Schmidt,
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Bill Powell
There are a lot of "Quakers" of all kinds.....in fact, I'm not sure what the name means sometimes. What have we become?
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Dotty Kurtz Pezzuto
On my FB page, my religious beliefs are listed as between the Religious Society of Friends and Universal Life Church.
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Dotty Kurtz Pezzuto
My husband attends the Haddonfield Friends Meeting House with me, but he says that he is Agnostic.
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Bill Powell
I miss Rufus Jones and Thomas Kelly and George Fox and all the other souls who gave this thing we call the 'Religious society of Friends' or 'Quakers' a foundation. I find it somehow beside the point to ponder whether I am an atheist or an agnostic or a 'Christian' or a 'believer in the still small barks' of purple poodles.....I am "Quaker" and I hope for that inward light, 'that of god', that pacifism that makes my existence a chance for the miracle that is life to be improved for others. I worry little about lables and how many ponderers can dance on the head of a pin. I worry a lot for the small voices of the world that sing faintly in the dark recesses of my soul. Clearly, I must be a wingnut!
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Jeanmarie Bishop
Bill - YOU SPEAK MY MIND!
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Sarah Kelly
🙂 Less of WHAT you be - more HOW you be?
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Caroline Gulian
I'm a Christian Quaker, although according to many Christians I am not Christian. I embrace the openness Quakers have to all paths. Yes, there are some who are atheist, there are many who follow multiple paths. We understand your path is unique, this to me is what is most important about Quakerism.
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Liz Cordiner
historically, Quakerism is based on Christianity, as George Fox said 'there is one even Christ Jesus who can speak to thy condition,'. Nowadays we would probably call that voice the Spirit.
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Caroline Gulian
Not necessarily. I call that voice the Lord, others call it the Spirit, the Light, etc. I find there is very little "we" in Quakerism and it was even presumptuous of me to say "we understand your path is unique".
It is true that it was founded by Christians, some who were like myself in wanting to practice Christianity in a way that might conflict with today's Christian churches. Fox was a brave man for being a protesting Protestant. I had been atheist for a while, after leaving the church in which I was raised. I realized it was not God that I did not believe in, I had confused the church with God (and many churches encourage that whether they will admit it or not).
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Bohol Quakers
i heard that there are athiest quakers; but, on second thought, it also depends on what you mean by "athiest" and what you mean by "quaker". there are quakers here on facebook who call themselves "Nontheist Friends", you can search their page here.
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Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin
Pinoy Quaker: how dismissive.
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Bohol Quakers
sorry, but i respect nontheist friends. not meant to be dismissive. in fact, i just bookmarked their webpage.
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Bill Powell
Embedded in the Jewish existentialist Martin Buber's writing is a mention of his experience of silent meeting and his astonishment at what happened to him-inwardly. I still hope for a brightening of that little light of mine inwardly, that bit of God, that still small voice. I still feel the presence of awe and wonder just a finger length out of reach...but I sense that it is there and I believe it. I sense that there is a greater truth "out there" and "in here" in all of us.....it is in the finding of it that is my hope and the use of it to do something worth doing that is my dream. Be not afraid.
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Caroline Gulian
Fox had said God is closer than your fingertips, deeper than your breath (pph). This is what personally brought me back to God. The church makes you think God is in some distant place and you might some day see him. (ie, the nicene creed). I now regard God as the All in all. I also no longer regard God as a gender, something which is probably unacceptable in most Christian churches.
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Caroline Francies Charlton
Where can I find those words of George Fox? I would like to pass them on to others. If (pph) is a reference I don't know it.
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Travis Mitchell
I have come to the place in my life where I no longer believe that God is a part of or interested in our lives, i.e., there almost certainly was a God that created this world and the universe surrounding it, but he/she/it is no longer involved on a daily basis in our lives. Our "prayers" go unanswered because no one is listening.
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Jeanmarie Bishop
Travis - my version of god is in every atom of everything that exists. God is immanent. If you look outward for answers to your prayers, you won't find them. "Wait in the stillness...."
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Caroline Gulian
pph means paraphrase. I had heard this quote years ago with some other quotes which I remember, but do not remember which reading it was from.
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Caroline Gulian
Travis it is you who must listen.
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Bill Powell
In my mind I suspect that God has the most difficult "job" of any in the universe...how might we "see" a God if God is in all things and of all things? Perhaps all that enters us and responds to us and asks of us is of God... and we look through the enormity of God trying to see the least of God.
At this moment I am watching a gathering of crows on the field to the south as the sunlight shines on them quite golden and bright....God is also the God of crows and they are in a moment of peace while gathering their 'crow family' in preparation for the winter. I hear crows and see God and feel God in the golden light of the sun on his creatures. 24 hours a day there is some version of this....perhaps I am a crackpot but perhaps I'm am blessed in quiet moments of golden sunlight on the blackness of crows. Perhaps....
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Caroline Gulian
Bill, I completely agree. I am closest to God at the shore. The ocean is vast and formless. The sound of the waves crashing is constant but no two waves are the same. I feel so small standing in the water as the water rides over my feet. When I leave the shore, my footprints are gone but the ocean continues. God is in crows, in oceans, in time and space. God is not some fatherly male figure or anything remotely human. All that is, is God.
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Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin
Caroline Gulian: That Friend speaks my mind. I've always felt closest to God at the ocean too.
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Jeanmarie Bishop
We're camping at the ocean for one night over Thanksgiving. I absolutely can not WAIT. The ocean is the womb of the planet - absolutely astonishingly vast, incredible - nothing man-made, no smoke and mirrors, no mechanical parts - just utter miraculous nature. The Great Mother of us all.
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Chris Wells
Here's something to think about: if we believe in our conception of God as "God", do we become idolaters? I think so. And I think one purpose of Quaker worship is to shatter our conceptions of God to open us to something greater. So, although I use God-language, say prayers, and experience a reality I call "God," I also know that "God" can't be limited to whatever or whomever I am addressing as "God". For this reason, nontheists may be on to something, especially when they are opening their hearts and minds to something greater than "God" and not less than "God", i.e., idols like "money," "common sense," and "politics as usual."
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Travis Mitchell
Caroline - I listened when we were told my son had a heart murmur. I listened when he was diagnosed as being in congestive heart failure at three and a half. I listened when he had open-heart surgery to repair the hole in his heart the size of his aorta. I listened when they said he still had pulmonary hypertension. I listened when we worried about his pulse ox levels. I listened when spending an afternoon recess game of football wrecked my son for the rest of the day and he cried because he couldn't keep up with the other kids his age. I listened when he cried from the agonizing pain in his joints. I listened when my son screamed in terror undergoing an MRI because the doctors thought the cause of his pain may be cerebral palsy. I listened while we wait to find out if he has rheumatoid arthritis or lupus. I listened when my daughter underwent open-heart surgery at four DAYS old. I listened when she developed necrosis of the bowels and I couldn't ho,d my new born child for a month. I listened when her incision was infected and had to be reopened. I listened when she was diagnosed with kidney/bladder disease that scarred her kidneys. I listened when I spent New Years Eve before her first birthday in the hospital again while she underwent surgery to repair her kidneys and bladder. I listened when as the sole provider for a family of five I was laid off from my job. I listened when children around the world starved to death. I am done listening. There is no one speaking to me because he is NOT THERE.
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Jeanmarie Bishop
You're right, Travis. "He" isn't there. But you're there. And I hear you - you speak to me of a hurt that is as deep as deep goes. You pain is unfathomable. I want to help and all I can do is tell you that you have touched my heart and I hold you in the light and your family and all those starving children. Love.
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Travis Mitchell
Jeanmarie - thank you for validating my belief that God is not out there listening to or answering our prayers. If one more person tells me I need to give my troubles over to God I swear I'm going to ask for an address for God that I can send my bills to and let him worry about them. There are so many great injustices in this world that any God that truly had compassion for His people wouldn't allow to happen. The innocent children that go to bed hungry or missing their families or that die from neglect are only one such example. "Our Father?" Our Absentee Father maybe.
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Sarah Kelly
Travis - I hear you. This is why the concept of an omnipotent god baffles me. Over the years I have moved away from the dualistic cultural thinking I was raised with and moved towards a monistic view of reality. In monism there is no body and mind, body and soul – they are one and the same thing. In the same way we are not separate from each other or the universe – that is just an illusion. In a very fundamental way it follows that there truly is ‘that of god’ in everyone. But monism denies omnipotence to ‘that of god’. Perhaps that means I’m atheist. I don’t know. I know that I don’t look to ‘that of god’ for miracles or to answer my prayers – I left that behind many years ago. I look to ‘that of god’ for guidance and inspiration, and I find that not only within me, but in many dimensions of my life and experience.
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Bill Powell
Travis.........I think I've been in a place similar to you....my last loss was my grown son. One way or another, I have lost 3 additional children (I'm down to one). What I felt most was the absence of God and the absence of those I loved. Grief is emptiness too. It has been difficult to come back to 'faith' of any kind.....in some ways, I suspect I have to do the work of Gof (if such an entity exists).....any goodness, directly applied to the world, needs to come to people from people....we are all we have. Our individualism leads us to believe that God is like a rider of a horse....one per horse. and an individual relationship. I simply don't know about many things.....but I know that life is a wondrous thing....to come into consciousness and see creation and then go back into the stream is so very much to feel in awe of....and to feel pain because I managed to feel love before it. It is not easy, but perhaps there is a light...or maybe not. What else can we do but hope and give? My wife and son are sleeping in other rooms now....am I still not blessed? I have a dear friend who just said kind words to me here on FB......what do I expect of God?
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Caroline Gulian
Travis Mitchell, I'm so sorry for what you are going through. I have gone through battles myself. When my son was diagnosed, I was (pardon the language) pissed at God. How could God do this to my son? What did my son do to God to deserve this?? I would go to worship for 15-20 minutes and leave in discust.
But, then I came to an enlightenment. God didn't give my son autism. God didn't make your son have heart problems. These are things that happen to physical beings for a number of reasons. But God is, as I call it, a "bouy in an ocean of madness". The one peaceful, solid thing I can turn to when everything else is total madness.
Someone once said to me (in a Precious Moments voice) "God makes special parents for special children" translation to me: if I wasn't a special parent, God wouldn't have made my kid autistic?? No good deed goes unpunished, I suppose, in that scenario. I told her no, any parent has the ability to step up to the plate when their child needs help. Turning to God can give one strength to go on when you want to just toss it all over a cliff. To me, God is Love. God is Peace. God is Light. When I need those, I turn to God.
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Caroline Gulian
Sarah, for a long time I wondered "am I Christian?" because while I love Jesus and follow His teachings, I do not believe Him to be "Lord and Savior". He is a Friend and a Teacher. To me, God is "Lord", meaning the one thing that is constant in everything. There is no Father/Son/Holy Spirit. God lived in Jesus but God lives in everything. So, am I Christian? Only Jesus knows for sure, but the label doesn't concern me.
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Bill Powell
It is good to hear many voices. It is good to feel many hearts.
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Sarah Kelly
Bill, you have voiced my feelings too. Those voices have come at a good time for me - I find my path has a way of unfolding that way sometimes 🙂
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Bill Powell
To the extent we have that "inward light", we might wonder what it shines upon. The light may be ours, but that which it illuminates is where our focus might well be.
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Pablo Stanfield
Most of the "atheist" Quakers i know, i have to ask Which god is it you don't believe in? Because tho' i'm a theist i don't believe in most of the godlets that most churches project, including the simpery blond Jesus-god. But if we get rid of the word god (which it took me almost 20 years to accept as the only general generic that somewhat points in the right direction; i still prefer the Dao), it seems all of them do believe in a spiritual reality, a higher power. That's what matters to me. I object to those who think we're the Quaker Political Debate Club, or the Silent Unitarian Universalists. But i accept anyone who finds that the transcendental, the non-material reality, their spiritual core is the center of their life. But i don't think that's atheist either, because it's not materialist. I find so many little gods and idols that get people's attention, affection and even obedience, when the Truth is so much more challenging to embrace, but it's absolutely central to Friends.
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Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin
Pablo Stanfield: perhaps why so many of us say we're non-theist rather than atheist, because of all the baggage that comes along with that label.
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RevCharley Duane Earp
I am an unapologetic physicalist. Physicalism says that everything is energy. Even your experience that there is some "non-material reality" is an experience of energy within the physical systems of your body. What I object to in the view that there is a "non-material reality" is the view that this "NMR" is more important than us material, physical, embodied creatures. That people who scratch a bare living out of harsh soil to fend off starvation are inferior to those privileged spiritual minded folks who contemplate the world beyond.
Pray for the kingdom of heaven on earth, which I take Jesus to mean, pray that your highest ideals of love, justice, and peace will become reality. That means liberating the starving and oppressed peoples of earth in this life, not some possible afterlife.
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Dru Klaus
Absolutely - I am one... I do believe in an energy that flows thru all things... but as for a GOD proper… I do not believe in a "GOD" - there is an energy within all things... the "inner light," as the ORTHODOX quakers believe, is in all things.
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Dotty Kurtz Pezzuto
If I was an atheist, I would belong to the "church that sleeps late on Sundays."
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Dru Klaus
Even think it is very similar to indian beliefs as well... from what I understand of both.
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La Poeta Andante
Thomas Kelly, Reality of the Spiritual World (pp 16-17):
"But turning to the whole subject, the Reality of the
Spiritual World, we may ask by whom is the spiritual world
peopled? Up to this time I have been speaking only of God.
And, after all, only God matters. When men, the world over,
reach up to that which is Highest above them, it is for God
that they yearn, no matter how He may be conceived,
whether He be Allah, or Brahma, or the Tao, or Ahura Mazda,
or the Father in Heaven of the Christian. But men have
variously peopled the spiritual world with more than God;
some have added angels, whole fluttering multitudes of
angels; some have added devils or The Devil, Satan; some
have added the souls of the departed. Some have made two
spiritual worlds, a Heaven and a Hell, with presiding
divinities over each. Some have split the Christian deity into
a Trinity of persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Some, like Meister Eckhart and Jacob Boehme, the greatest
mystics of the West, have asserted an Urgrund, a Godhead,
a more basic view of Reality underlying all the variety of divine forms that are conceivable."
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Gary Bagwell
Just read the first few pages - I hope our meetinghouse library has it.
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La Poeta Andante
you can download the pdf from Pendle Hill's pamphlet seriess ...
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La Poeta Andante
Friend Gary -- here's the link: http://www.quaker.org/pamphlets/phd/php021_jr.html
& other Pendle Hill Pamphlets listed here: http://www.quaker.org/pamphlets/PendleHill.html
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Gary Bagwell
Thanks, that was where I saw the first few pages, but I still hope to find a retro format in the morning. If not I'll revisit the link.
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Gary Bagwell
Have a copy on my dashboard, for reading at odd moments now.
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Bill Powell
The original question was "are there Atheist Quakers". What is the point of being a Quaker anymore? Does being a Quaker oblige us in any way?
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RevCharley Duane Earp
I am a nontheist and a Quaker because the way that Quakers love God by seeking peace, equality, and love is the best way to love God, even if God does not exist.
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Bill Powell
seeking a being who does not exist and loving a being that does not exist......did George Fox use that as a starting point?
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RevCharley Duane Earp
I am entirely happy with most Quakers being theists. They say, "God", I say "Love." That is enough of a divinity for me.
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Bill Powell
Charley....I'm still trying to wrap my head around all this. How much divinity is enough divinity? I don't have an answer and that's not a criticism.....metaphorically, if Quakerism was a cake batter that we hoped would rise into a great treat, how much can the batter be amended until it no longer rises and ceases to be a cake?
I go to Meeting and I think everyone there has a completely different conception of being "a Quaker" and I wonder if there is any such thing any more. Where did the notion of "that of God" go....did it become "that of entity"? Help me get up to speed here........my ancestors came over with Wm Penn and I was a conscientious objector and it's been a long and winding road since then.
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Gary Bagwell
I respect past Quakers, and nurture future Quakers, but I do all of my Quaking in the present moment.
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RevCharley Duane Earp
For me, it is that of "Love." If by God you don't mean perfect love, then I don't affirm that god of imperfect love as doing much good for anyone. Everyone is imperfect, including me. I used to be a tongue-speaking Pentecostal. However, as I healed various childhood wounds, it became clear to me that inside my mind, "god" was a punishing condemning imaginary being. It is better for me to let others use that word however they wish, but for me, "love" - perfect love - is the only divinity I allow myself to follow.
If it were a matter of my individual idiosyncrasies as a refugee of fundamentalism, then I'd say the matter was just a private foible. However, I continue to meet dozens of people who have been seriously wounded by believers in God.
Perhaps this story will help, one woman I know could not pray the name "Jesus" since it was so bound up with harmful and wounding religion. However, one day she heard someone speaking Spanish and saying "Jesus" as "hay-zoos." She prayed at that moment, "May I call you Hay-Zoos?" She says the heavens were filled with laughter.
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Bill Powell
Charley, I understand wounds. Gary, I live in a present that is only a concept of stopage in the flow of time. Still, are there atheist Quakers, Muslim Quakers, ...? As I write this I am responding back and forth with an Egyptian Muslim. I wonder if he would accept having an atheist as a Muslim. I do not know the answer to that......but, truth is, I find "Quakerism" to be vague.
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Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin
Bill Powell: secular Jews have a long history.
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RevCharley Duane Earp
There is no fixed "Quakerism" only people who call themselves Quakers. The ideas in their heads can be called "Quakerisms" and if they discuss those ideas at length and come to unity on what they mean by "Quakerism" then for that time and place a certain solidity is achieved.
Islam appears more stable, since the Quran is a fixed text, however, the meaning of that text has been fought over since it's composition.
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Jeanmarie Bishop
I think we are strongest when we don't get hung up on what we "believe," but when we are together in our undefinable, yet absolutely undeniable experience.
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Dru Klaus
And if I understand what Quakerism is, it is accepting others as they believe… we as a group, believe that we all have our own unique relationship with the inner light within ALL things/beings. Defining your own level, and learning to be completely compassionate toward all, despite their differing beliefs is fundamental to Quakers.
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Pablo Stanfield
I´m not sure you can believe just anything and be a Quaker -- in fact i´m convinced that it will be the end of Quakerism and its special role in religious life of the human species if we continue to say that we must accept whatever people believe. I´m sure i don´t want any practicing Aztecs to come in and sacrifice a few beating hearts to make the sun rise because they ¨sincerely" believe that. Belief has little or no relationship to Truth, and we are the Friends of Truth.
But i agree with Dru that we must accept everyone where s/he is, with love and respect. As was said long ago: God has no hands but ours to do [its] work; no ears but ours to hear the cry of [its] people and no feet but ours to take us to help them. The sooner we get rid of the Michelangelo hairy thunderer floating in the clouds off the Sistine Chapel ceiling and out of our imaginations, the sooner we can open to the Real, the Eternal, the One[ness] that mystics of all stripes from physicists to sufis have always found.
The important things is to find that One who speaks to thy condition... for It is there. As a Daoist Jewish Quaker i find it difficult at times when people get all gushy about a god named Jeezus, who probably didn't say half the things attributed to him (most of which were standard Judaism at his time) or believe 1/8 the things most Christians say about him. But when they meet the Holy One, the Indwelling Spirit, and decide to follow where that Truth leads, they become Quakers. I tell my muslim friends that we become muslims too because we also submit. It doesn't make the injustices of the world any easier to swallow, the egos and selfishness of other people and the diseases and inequities of life still challenge us, but i could no more Stop believing God/Dao/The Eternal One/Shekhinah than i can stop believing Gandhi's teachings or the existence of my mother (even tho' she's dead). [IT] continues to touch me and guide me. As far as i can tell from esteemed, mainstream Quakers from 1650 to 2010, that puts me in the main line of Quakerism, and in the main line of the Faithful. As it says iin Deuteronomy: this Teaching is not far away so you must ask, whom can we send to find it? Not across the sea to ask: where is the guru who can teach it? It is not in the Skies so you must worry how to get up to it. It is as close as a whisper in your ear and as regular as the beating of your heart and ready for you to understand [IT].
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Jeanmarie Bishop
Pablo - that's beautiful. Thank you.
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Anthøny Smıth
I'm told there is, but I'm honestly uncomfortable w/ the idea.
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Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin
Anthøny Smıth: Did you read any of the comments in this thread by atheists/non-theists/others? What is it specifically about us that makes you uncomfortable? Do you feel we are not sincere in our beliefs?
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Anthøny Smıth
I don't doubt your beliefs are sincere. And while there are a variety of concepts of the Divine (I'm something of a panentheist myself), I also associate Quakerism w/ Christianity, and I become very uneasy when we drift too far from that.
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RevCharley Duane Earp
I understand the discomfort, however, the world is changing and it is now very hard to believe that one religion is true for all of humanity. I have a powerful attraction to the story of Jesus as a rebel prophet, but not as a savior. A post-Christian Universalism has been an established part of FGC Quakerism for decades.
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Anthøny Smıth
There are many paths to Truth - all of them imperfect to varying degrees - but they are not all Quakerism: that is, a part of the historical practice of the Religious Society of Friends.
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Anthøny Smıth
You're right -it has been. And while I am an FGC Quaker, I've never been...settled with that strain. I believe in Universal Reconciliation, but I come from a Christian orientation.
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Dru Klaus
But the inner light is different for everyone IMO - the Christians who are friends are a group within - been a Quaker most of my life, and went to Quaker schools... The truth is - Quakers are an off-shoot from the church... At the end of this - we accept all as friends... And all forms of belief are accepted - to say the meeting is primarily Christian is COMPLETELY misleading.
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Caroline Gulian
Charley Earp, I agree. I call myself "Christian" but I believe many would not consider me such. Jesus, to me, is a Friend and a Teacher. These are both supported by the scriptures. And when he overturned the tables in the temple he was definitely a rebel. Furthermore, much of what the church says about Jesus being God, well, as a Quaker I believe we all are God. Jesus was making us aware of this. I have great respect for what that man did. He did not "save" me, I learned from his teachings how to save myself, make myself a better person.
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Beth Bełch
It was once wondered if non-Jews could be Christians. Then, it was debated whether or not Jesus was divine or wholly human, or something in between. The trinity has been a bone of contention for centuries. I don't think anyone can honestly claim absolute knowledge of the Divine, and even within the Christian tradition the understanding of Divinity has never been static. While I see the danger in opening up so far that "Quaker" looses it's meaning, there is equal danger in being closed and saying "No, that's not possible".
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Bill Powell
From our predecessor, Caroline Stephen:
"Here we are confronted with the real 'peculiarity' of Quakerism---it's relationship to mysticism. There is no doubt that George Fox himself and other fathers of the Society were of a strong mystical turn of mind.....there were assuredly mystics in what I take to be the more accurate sense of that word--people, that is, with a vivid consciousness of the inwardness of the light of truth."
"What friends undoubtedly believe and maintain is that to the listening heart God does speak intelligibly; and further, that some among his worshipers are gifted with a special openness to receive, and power to transmit in words, actual messages from himself. Is this more than is necessarily implied in the belief that real communion with him is not only possible, but is freely open to all?"
Many questions were asked a century ago and are still being asked...but do we still reach out to acquire a mystical bent--to be in closer communion with the divine (should there be such a thing)? What of the "listening heart of GOD" that she talks about? We all have the capacity to explain ourselves....why we put our own polish on things, but do we have any collective direction? Can we Meet together (in the fullness of the gathered Meeting) if we lose track of that 'something' that binds us together more powerfully than those qualities that make each of us distinct? It is good to talk openly but also good to talk silently.
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9 y
Pablo Stanfield
Anthony Smith, i think panentheism (as counter to a more amorphous pantheism that has shown up in this discussion) is a very Christian (if you mean the followers of Jesus/Yeshu' bar Maryam, called the Christ, the Anointed One) and logical position to find oneself in. And though traditional mainline Christian saints often preached it, very few of those who most loudly proclaim their Christianity today would accept it. I think many of the others who have put up their ideas and experiences of the Divine One would agree, but eventually Quakerism is not mainstream Christianity --altho the primitive Quakers were "recovering primitive Christianity as it was before the apostasy"-- because the apostasy, the Roman Empire that took it over and defined it, still defines mainline Chrisitanity, even (or at times especially) the Evangelical branches.
But they are about the world to come, about salvation by blood, about hell and condemnation (Barclay calls it and the Calvinists, "preaching up sin"), about blind believing, not faith. Real faith --as Maimonides said 750 years ago-- depends on what we know, what we have experienced; not on theories or nice sounding ideas or even ideals, but on the foundations of Quakerism: experience of the Holy, the Eternal Spirit of Truth and Life and Love, and consequent commitment and action to make the world a place for that, to incarnate the One, as Jesus did.
Quakers are about an ecology of the Spirit of Love, making real the soul's vision of the deeper reality. I also think Quakerism cannot depart far from true Christianity, the discipleship of Reb Jesu and his Jewish foundational teachings, nor from its flexibility in accepting any steps from other traditions that lead us closer to the Truth and to manifesting it in our lives.
Tho' i am not a Christian, Caroline Stephen (quoted immediately above) speaks to and for me. As she once wrote:
"To Love knows no tense; it is either now or never."
That's true Quakerism, true Jesus's teachings, true Judaism and true Sufi Islam. As Rabbi Hillel said, all the rest is commentary, go and study. We have no creed because you can't lock the Truth up: God is too big for puny human words, even the words God and Love. Maybe Quakerism, as Howard Brinton proposed, really is just a method, like the scientific method which is for understanding physical realities, ours is for understanind spiritual realities. I know --much as many hate the word-- it's a discipline, a path requiring walking within the boundaries of self-control (what early Quakers called picking up your cross), openness and gentle peacefulness and following the Spirit of Love. After that, you can use any words that express your experience of it.
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Pablo Stanfield
Charley Earp, as a Latino i know Jesús is always pronounced Hay-soose. How do we know Jesús is latino? He works for wages that "real 'Mericans" won't accept; he has to walk on water to get here; he takes the jobs others can't handle...
How do we know Jesús is a woman? She had to clean the temple before she could worship there; she was expected to work miracles with a little bread and wine; and even when just dead, she still has to get up and take care of everybody... hi ho!
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RevCharley Duane Earp
As an ex-pentecostal, its a core assumption of mine that the "real name" of the sacred is unpronounceable. Just as our own names aren't really ours but imposed on us, hopefully by loving parents, nevertheless our real selves transcend words. Jesus transcends Christian attempts to control the meaning of his story.
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Anthøny Smıth
Certainly true, Charley Earp, but while there are no limits to God, there are limits to religion. There's an inherent tension btn that, as we try hard to get as close to God as possible.
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Bill Powell
I must say that I am glad that we "talk" here. But I am appreciative of the silence in the gathered meeting. NOw this: In Newsweek is an article (based on a coming book) called "My proof of heaven" by Eben Alexander.
Starting with the problem when the N=1 and proof and reproducability, etc.... and getting anyone to believe in the author's position, what do we draw from such comments? I went back to readings by mystics today that I first read 30 years ago (including George Fox) and I find bits and pieces of the same information about mystical perceptions. Rufus Jones and Caroline Stephen certainly thought mysticism was part of Quakerism. There is a place where words cannot take us and I have experienced such a place in Quakerism. To me, that is one of the beauties of our religion/faith---we make room for that which often cannot be said but can sometimes be done.
After the death of my son (a hugely good young Quaker kid) I did not believe in God. I still, even after all these years and the loss of other children, have bruises where I think God should have been, but whether she is there or not I still sense the light and still sense that still small voice and the obligation to do good. Sometimes I see through the veil but mostly I grow older. Bless you all.
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Caroline Gulian
Quakerism will never lose its meaning, although Friends have split into subgroups over the centuries to define their own meanings. There are negatives and positives to all of this.
I recommend reading Friends Divided, which talks about the splits over the years and how peaceful Friends can sometimes be at war with one another. However it also points out how, when differences can not be met and separation takes place, it will bring some sense of unity. While I differ in my practice from Orthodox and Evangelical Friends in some ways, there are other things that bond us together.
http://www.abebooks.com/.../Friends-Divided-Conflict.../plp
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9 y
Caroline Gulian
Jesus' real name was pronounced Yeshua (sometimes spelled Y'shua).
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Sarah Kelly
Thank you Bill. Bless you too.
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9 y
Sarah Kelly
I have appreciated this discussion, and others on this board, so much - hearing these different voices has been wonderful. Thank you to all who have given.
I haven't been to meeting for worship for quite some years. That has reflected the spiritual journey I have been on, and my fear that I may not have ‘a home’ among the Quakers as my journey progressed.
What I hear in your voices though, whether theist or non theist, is
faith in the Quaker way and, what ever you perceive god to be or not be, that the nature of ‘that of god’ is love and peace, and is immediate. I also hear of beauty and truth.
(For me truth is a tricky word, it again can mean different things to different people. I take it to mean listening attentively without prejudice (with an open heart) for clarity of understanding of meaning.)
These are values I relate to, and I realise I am less estranged from the Quaker community than I imagined. Which is a pleasant awakening.
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Sarah Kelly
Pinoy Quaker Thank you for mentioning the nontheist friends webpage. I have ordered a copy of thier book 'Godless for Gods Sake' and, so far, it has been a very enlightening and interesting read.
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Melissa Tibbals-Gribbin
Sarah Kelly: beautifully put, Sarah.
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Dru Klaus
Pinoy Quaker &
Sarah Kelly - You mean: http://www.nontheistfriends.org/ <-= Looked interesting.
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9 y
Sarah Kelly
Hi Dru, I'm sorry, I am sometimes a bit slow on the uptake! I'm not quite sure if you're looking for clarification? I have certainly found the group’s book, 'Godless for God's Sake' interesting and I have also blown off the dust from a book that’s been lying in my bookcase unread for over a decade, ‘Listening to the Light’ by Jim Pim. I am reading the books alternately – the juxtaposition helps to give, I’m not sure, a broader context may be? Interesting anyway.
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Jeanmarie Bishop
Thanks, Sarah! I'm going to look for both of those books.
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9 y
Sarah Kelly
The name of the author of ‘Listening to the Light’ is Jim Pym (not Pim as i wrote).
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9 y
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