A Penetrating Spiritual Experience with Julie Anderson
New Thinking Allowed with Jeffrey Mishlove
6,844 views Jan 5, 2024
Julie Anderson, a former Playboy centerfold model, was an intimate companion of Adi Da Samraj from 1976 until 1992. During that time she was known as Kanya Samarpana Remembrance (also Swami Dama Kalottara Devi, and a number of other names). Her article, "The Real Practice of Guru-Devotion," was published in the Free Daist Magazine in 1992. You can learn more about Julie at the following sites: https://www.evelynexposedandfreed.com/, https://beezone.com/julieanderson/int.... and
• Video
Following up on her previous interview in which she shared details of life in the household of Adi Da Samraj, she goes into some depth describing his philosophy and the spiritual disciplines she practiced.
00:00:00 Introduction
00:03:01 Physical separation from the guru
00:07:01 The cultish mindset
00:22:02 Different samadhis
00:56:31 Return of the ego
01:17:45 Postmortem spiritual connection
01:32:26 Conclusion
New Thinking Allowed host, Jeffrey Mishlove, PhD, is author of The Roots of Consciousness, Psi Development Systems, and The PK Man. Between 1986 and 2002 he hosted and co-produced the original Thinking Allowed public television series. He is the recipient of the only doctoral diploma in "parapsychology" ever awarded by an accredited university (University of California, Berkeley, 1980). He is also the Grand Prize winner of the 2021 Bigelow Institute essay competition regarding the best evidence for survival of human consciousness after permanent bodily death.
(Recorded on November 14, 2023)
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Introduction
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Thinking Allowed Conversations on the leading edge of knowledge and discovery
with psychologist Jeffrey Mishlove.
Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we'll be exploring life in the Ashram of Adi Da Samraj.
My guest is Julie Anderson, a former playboy centerfold model who was an intimate companion of the spiritual master
Adi Da for 16 years from 1976 to 1992.
During those years she was considered an individual of high spiritual attainments and was known as Kanya Samarpana Remembrance
and also Swami Dama Kalottara Devi and a number of other names.
Adi Da has also been known by many other names, including Da, Levinanda, Bubba Free-John,
The Ruchira Avatar and Franklin Jones. His writings have been highly praised by many thoughtful students
of spirituality including the philosophers Alan Watts,
Jeffrey Kripal and Ken Wilbur. Adi Da died in November of 2008.
Julie left the spiritual community founded by Adi Da in 1992
after a deep process known as reality consideration.
Julie lives in Australia and now I'll switch over to the internet video.
Welcome Julie, it's a pleasure once again to be with you. Yeah, thank you so much Jeff, I really have enjoyed our last conversation
and I'm so happy to be here again. I'm delighted to be with you.
I think you really opened up a window for our viewers to understand what it was like at least to get a glimpse of what it was like
living in the household of a spiritual master. Now, in this conversation I hope we can go a little deeper
and talk about more of the nuances and one thing that you mentioned
to me before we began, which I think is worthy of mention now so that is very clear with our viewers.
Physical separation from the guru
When you left the Ashram in 1992, that did not end your relationship with Adi Da.
Yes, yes. That's true. The relationship has continued and will continue.
I simply was not in the Fiji and Ashram, but then went into different aspects of relating to devotees
and his work throughout the world gathering and on different Ashrams in Northern California or Hawaii
in Seattle or there's a couple of Ashrams in Northern California and then with devotees in different parts of the world.
I serve in different ways, but still in direct relationship to him and his instruction and guidance and our communications back and forth
and then often I would return back into his household or in the Ashram in different manners.
And that was important as important as the time that I actually spent in his household for those 17 years.
He died in 2008, which would have been another 16 years after.
So he spent, in effect, 16 years in his intimate company in 16 years and more or less on an off association.
Yes, correct. And then as important is now the 14 years close to 14 years
after he passed away. And each of those periods of time are very significant
in direct relationship to the spiritual process itself. The transcendental spiritual process itself.
Yes. So I'm assuming, by that, that since he left the body in 2008
you've still felt regular communication with him. Yes, in many different ways.
Actually, in all of life, no matter who I relate to or what I'm doing, the presence of his transmission, the spirit presence
and also the manner in which I know him intimately at heart
and then also the instruction that was given directly and then also through the written teaching and other forms of what
he has given as gifts that communicate about the process that he initiated for everyone.
So I find that everyone and everything that I relate to is a teacher to me because I recognize the single
oneness of our manifestation as being itself. And so I'm constantly learning in relationship to life.
And as I mentioned before, the constant is always what was the transmission
of the divine self-condition or consciousness itself. That is also unqualified love bliss, unqualified light.
So in that context of the relationship and the revelation of being that is not separate from anyone or anything but inclusive of it,
I'm always learning through what's called heart intelligence.
And this is the nuances of how that, as see, the words he uses
is radical understanding or perfect knowledge. There's a lot of language around it that really the fundamental certainty of it
is wordless and speechless because it's a transmission, a profound awakening
into a context that is not just focused in the body mind
or psychophysical nature. Well, in our last conversation, you talked about how part of
The cultish mindset
body does teachings had to do with the notion of a cult.
And then he did not want his devotees and other followers
to treat him as a cult leader. He didn't want to create a cult.
And yet it seems to me it would be pretty hard not to see the
oddity down the organization that he left behind is something of a
cult following a Hindu style religion around a spiritual master
and having a variety of rituals and practices associated with that.
It seems sort of paradoxical that it had all the trappings of a cult and at the same time the spiritual master is saying he didn't want it to be a cult.
Yes. That is a trick.
And the way that you're speaking of it is a more broad and intelligent
and informed way of relating to the terminology of a cult.
As I touched on last time that we spoke, and this isn't just an event
that has occurred with Adi Da and Audit Doz work, but many spiritual teachers, even in the streams of the most conventionally accepted
religions in the world have been targeted in terms of being called cults.
And that has the most negative connotation in the media as being something that is just absolutely horrifying and amoral.
You know, coercive and manipulative and all of that. And there are organizations and people who have function that way.
And that is absolutely anathema. I mean, absolutely not okay.
And that word does not in any way shake or form in that context or in that
description apply to what we did with Adi Da, how Audit Doz work.
However, that being said, there are roots that are common with everyone that has
a liability to function in a cultic fashion. And this has to do with the unique manner in which Audit Doz work to undo the cult.
And at root, a cult comes about by virtue of relating to life as an eye
other manifestation. And I'm not talking about that in terms of the convention of speech.
You know, just to refer to the fact that I am speaking to you. I'm speaking about it at a more depth feeling of the being.
A sense of identity that is here somehow or other consider to be completely independent
of everyone and everything. And this points to living life in relationship
to everyone and everything as being somehow other and you're not connected with it.
You're separate from it and you're not inherently dependent and combined or interconnected.
So when we relate to life and other through the act of separation as an ego act that is not
in relationship fully heart open and available to feel and combine with that
and willing to consider things with and feel different views and different qualities and such
then the liability is that if we're not doing that then we want to fight for and define our own position.
And control it and own it and any one that doesn't agree with you, you are in opposition to.
Basically living life and relationship to the world as an opponent or as a victim. All of these kinds of dynamic is what creates the cult and
that a cult can be lived even in relationship to your own body. Your own body mind, you know, the feeling
awareness of being being aware of the body mind if you relate to that as an other you create a cultic dynamic where
you're constantly dealing with problems that seem insurmountable. And you're trapped in that duality dynamic, same with an intimate relationship.
You can live that as a cult of pairs or there can be a cult of three, there can be a cult of 100, there can be cult of thousands,
a nation becomes a cult, a club becomes a cult, a religion becomes a cult, you know, a movie, you can create a movie.
That's cultic, I mean it's just relating to life as an objective other. So that's a fundamental understanding that Adi Da really, really were constantly hard to undo because it's that radical
understanding of non duality is core and fundamental to his teaching and the transmission of what he describes as the
one and only single condition that is the self-condition true of every one and every thing.
So that we're all in that awake as the self-position and source condition as one.
And if that is actually felt then it has the possibility or potential of undermining conflict
undermining the potential of being unavailable to be able to be feelingly sympathetic
or compassionate or cooperative or tolerant in the context of a world that has so many vast possibilities and differing
experiences and different forms of learning, different forms of karma, different DNA, different knowledge, different experience.
So all of these differences are there to be observed and felt and understood and not reacted to.
Well, when you left the organization in Fiji, where you had been a resident and at that point, if I recall correctly, you
described Adi Da as being very unsatisfied with the success of his mission as the Ruchira Avatar that he had expected more.
If I recall correctly, it was as if he felt that the community around him, including the
most advanced practitioners were still caught up in their ego identities to some extent.
They were not realizing the goal of Advaita Vedanta of
oneness and that was creating a cult-like situation.
Yes, so I can speak about myself then in this regard because that criticism was true and remains
to be true to a certain degree and in relationship to my growth and understanding at this point.
And that has to do with the fact that Adi Da's teaching and his communication via his gifts and his transmission
as a Siddha Guru, a transmission master, is that he awakened us all as he has realized and in relationship to all.
Realizers and the divine condition itself that is manifested through time and space.
His intention and purpose was to help us be able to awaken to a condition that is prior to and beyond just
the point of view that we tend to identify in this cosmic domain as the universal domain of experience.
And when he first began to teach or communicate about this, even in relationship to
the masters of realizes that had helped him along the way of his process in Siddha.
He was a difficulty in being able to really grasp or understand what it was that he was communicating because it
seemed to be in a front to what had been established as the accepted perspective from which we would engage life.
And on to a separate self identity, I other identity and all the forms in which this had manifested throughout time and space and history and cultures that to
begin to say, there's something beyond this that we need to establish all of us into to be able to be at rest and to bring about a peace and a happier world.
And continue to grow spiritually. He noticed that people were not prepared because as is understood traditionally in a real spiritual process
that has to do with if you're a truly religious practitioner that and this is always determined by the values and virtues of the heart itself.
No matter what kind of religious spiritual practice or tradition you've been engaged in,
the heart domain, the domain of love itself is the measure of the integrity of any process.
So if you're a religious practitioner or a yogic-pressed practitioner or even a truly spiritual practitioner or a mystic or a great philosopher
or a guillani or a guru or a practitioner or a devotee, all of those roles or functions or experiences have to be measured in the heart domain.
And the psychophysical structure of our beings are all the same in
terms of how we view the world and how we conceive it or perceive it.
How is in terms, I'm talking in structural terms, like the mechanism itself, not the content or what you, your opinion or you view or how you may value it.
I'm talking about the actual structural mechanism. Now this may sound a bit esoteric to try
to answer your question, but it's really the best way to do it because it speaks at root.
But was the limit that he had to keep pointing out to us is that our structural mechanisms were not prepared to receive
the force of that transmission that would actually establish the feeling being in the domain of consciousness itself.
As for that to occur, it requires the willing participation of the student, the practitioner or the devotee or even the accomplished advanced practitioner to
constantly engage in the reciprocal process of surrender or letting go of what you are attached to as if it is necessary to hold on to from realization itself.
Or to live a life that is truly about love and love bliss. There's the constant liability in the being, no matter
how much you have experienced in the broad spectrum of human religious or spiritual or transcendental life.
Or what you've experienced, if the heart itself is not open and then allows the structure, the whole bodily being to be open, in relationship to everyone in
everything, no matter what the experience is, without qualification, then you constrict or do not allow the current of life or love bliss itself to do its work.
Well, I take from what you're saying that there should be no difference
between life and the world and life and the Ashram that it's all one.
Exactly, exactly. Or life as you may experience it as an accomplished, you'll be mystic
philosopher, intellectual, teacher, or whatever circumstance you may find yourself in.
And that's why my time when I was not in the Ashram and you could use
the word cloister, you know, you could use it was it was a set apart.
In many traditions, you have renunciates, monks and nuns, you know, people who are so dedicated to that specific form of process that
they don't, they are no, they're relieved of the responsibility to have to function in the world in the fashion that most people do.
However, how is that kind of a process going to actually relate to
a transmission or a revelation within which it is all inclusive?
So there has to be the communication that this is available and can be
practiced without the methods of rigorous seeking that have been available.
This process is applicable and available to everyone and everything. Why? Because it's the very context of our existence.
Different samadhis
Well, while you were in the Ashram, you did have the opportunity to live something of a cloistered life you
described in our previous interview that there were times when you could spend practically all day in meditation.
As a result of that, you pointed out that you experienced many different kinds of samadhi and that
phrase stuck with me all the different kinds of samadhi, I would be very happy to hear more about that.
Yeah, that's wonderful to speak about. When I speak about this, I'll be speaking about things that are not unfamiliar to thousands and thousands of people who
have had similar experiences, but in different contexts and in different traditions and throughout time and space has been communicated in different forms.
And the fact that I was able to do that was an extraordinary blessing. I feel that the incredible gift of that and am indebted to the individuals who made
that possible, you know, that I was supported to be able to live that kind of focused life and concentrate my life and in what's traditionally called samyama.
Consideration of a focus of experimentation and investigation into the actual esoteric anatomy
of the whole bodily being and its relationship to life and to spirit and to traditions.
Like study of that and to actually live that with a spirit, an accomplished and awakened spiritual teacher and
master that it's an extraordinary gift and I know again there are many people who can speak about this opportunity.
And I can speak about it specifically in relationship to Adi Da. I'm really sad that Adi Da passed on when he did because I know that he wanted to continue to be embodied
to be able to see the fruition of all of what he had worked with in those of us and those who knew of him or may have felt him and not even be able to call it by name.
As is often the case, you know, with a lot of things people may experience
in life and they don't know what to call it but they know that it's grace.
How did that happen? It was that experience about the mystery of it all. So when I was there I was in a
situation in which that mystery was constant because it was a place that was secretly set apart for that purpose.
So you know how when you go into any kind of a space, just even the room that you're in right now, you're attuned to being very
careful to set it up in a manner in which will help you to do what you are skill that and artfully have a heart impulse to do.
And so you take into account all the little nuances around it
and likewise in an ashram or in a temple or a sacred space.
I mean you can even feel this when you go into like a library or a museum or an art gallery, you know,
or theater at many different situations in which the space itself is set up to serve a specific purpose.
And if you've gone into empowered places that have been sacredly empowered, either by
actual articles that somehow are imbued with the force of an energy that is really strong.
Oftentimes people might use crystals this way or yeah
all sorts of different relics of different kinds.
Well also there is what's called invocation and these
are practices that occur in all traditions prayer.
Making use of music or art or architecture, you know, to establish
spaces that are conducive to religious and spiritual practice.
So I lived in that kind of a setting in a number of different ashrams and I also had the opportunity
to help Adi Da with a very large number of other devotees also participated doing this with him.
extraordinarily amazing process because being an artist with certain sensitivities that was an extraordinary
education because the way that the ashrams came into being again was through study of the different traditions.
And how this occurred and then measuring how do we establish our ashram and our relationships with Adi Da and with one another
in a manner that actually honors and respects and conducts this unique process of bright the transmission of conscious light.
So when I was there, everything that happens I described before in all those years of being around him 24 seven, whether
I was like physically in the room or not, I was living with him and under his direct guidance with a number of people.
The force of his transmission was always present that was what we always felt and relationship that what we did and his
presence is establishes us in the context that's not separated from or focused and trying to achieve a specific experience.
And so when when his transmission comes down into the being and then circles
around and establishes what he describes as the summary of the thumbs.
It's an all-inclusive context that then ends
up evoking or bringing to your feeling being.
And triggers brings light into various aspects
of the psychophysical biography of the ego.
And the structural anatomy that esoteric anatomy. So in my own being, I learned over all the years and am still learning about various things that
I have experienced in time and space that instruct me about the possibilities of being embodied.
And not just embodied grossly but also embodied in different levels or manifestations or vibrations of experience.
So what I described to you that I experienced before even coming into his physical company,
that was the beginning of the initiation of what's described as the summary of the thumbs.
And the thumbs is something he coined when he was a young boy because it was something he experienced at a very young age.
And which is the incredible force of the spiritual presence pressing down into the being.
And the heart responding to the feeling of love bliss opening up and then also going up the back of the
body and bringing you full circle and as it comes around it establishes you in a spherical form of being.
And you realize and this is the samadhi of it that you're not actually just identified with this
fleshy structure that your conscious awareness is actually much beyond just a physical body.
And as you know and many of your people you've spoken to have communicated and millions of people have experienced that the world is more than what you've spoken to.
The world is more than what we'd love to like for what
we can see, which is a really important realization. So a samadhi is a satory, you know a profound, yogic realization, but
specifically according to certain traditions there are samadhi that also occur.
The relationship to the chakras in the body mind. And of course bond in relationship to Adi Da work again in relationship
to the right and the middle and the center stations of the heart.
Am I making am I speaking clearly enough? Well you're speaking in vague terms, although you mentioned the chakras
for example, many of our viewers will be familiar with the chakras.
I certainly wouldn't expect you to explain that, but.
Let me let me say this. I had a dear friend who was a member of
that community and one day he came to visit me and he said to me.
When we meditate, he said, we don't meditate, he meditates us.
Right. Yes. Yes. So that what that means is as I'm describing that the heart, like
the heart, the the transmission of the heart actually moves through this structure.
And so when we're sitting in meditation or in life or wherever we are, and this is what happened when I was living with him,
I was always noticing that something was being revealed, both about
the nature of my liability to do this in relationship to life,
which is an expression of being unloved or recording
from life, or I was open, open to turn out into life.
And in doing that, then the transmission would illuminate
all the different possibilities that I could experience. And so, for example, when I was in Audi does company in
the late 70s and we went to Hawaii shortly after I arrived.
I had an unexpected experience and it's called Kachari Mudra.
And it is a form of a yogic samadhi where the related to the throat chakra and then
to the pineal gland in the brain, the force of the transmission or the spirit current,
then drips, ends up coming down so forcibly that
the tongue goes back into the behind the palate. It's not like I wasn't intending to do it.
It was a spontaneous manifestation of reaching back behind and up.
And then the tongue was actually touching what is called a nectarous
flower or chakra in the body within which the nectar of love bliss. So the spirit current was dripping down into my throat all the
way through my body, all the way down to the base of my body. And I was completely in a, as I described, but I can still feel it because the that
nectar is always flowing because that's actually the current that is keeping us alive.
And in traditional terms, oftentimes yogis will spend decades attempting to achieve these
various forms of mudra's yogic mudra's to be able to experience and taste the nectar,
whereas in Adi Da's company I was given these experiences without effort.
In other words, I didn't have to practice a lot of yoga for that to be spontaneously given.
That's one example. Another one is the a similar kind of experience
where his transmission would come down, and this occurred very early on also as I described relative to feeling a
perpetual sustenance that was not dependent upon what I ate, what I didn't eat.
My sense of how I appeared in the world that was all associated with the anorexic,
bulimic syndromes, eating disorders, which are all about a relationship to life or not.
And a right open relationship to life or a neurotic one or an addictive one.
And I remember the day in which suddenly there was again just being in
his around him and being with devotees who being in these sacred spaces.
I began to notice is that my navel, like the not in my navel was loosening.
You know the kind of not you get over your solar plexus when you're anxious and you're afraid of something and you can feel it and you can feel it.
Oh, it's just hard. You were describing of course you were talking about the throat just then and you use the phrase the nectar and I know you described
it in such a manner as to imply that it was actually some form of liquid that was flowing down your throat is that is that correct.
Well, it felt like it was a liquid whether it was or wasn't I wasn't
making that kind of visceral observation at the time that it was occurring.
It was it was more that it was a nectar that wasn't just it was happening physically because of the of the mudra that occurred.
But it also the bliss that that was permeating the being what was is what was more prominent.
But the one with the navel that I was speaking about that actually ends up opening
and relaxing again through the transmission that is prior to the experience itself.
It allows these all of the shockers to open so you were experienced the different blisters or the different abilities or the different ways that it informs you in terms of how to
relate to life differently than if the shockers are either constricted or contracted or if you are focusing energy and attention on the chakra in order to achieve an experience.
So my the forms of some bodies that I experienced in in audio does company
were given because of the illumination that is inherent in bright yoga.
That's called ot machari ot manati Shakti yoga of the bright.
So it's the Shakti or the energy of the ot manati Shakti or the bright itself
that illuminates these centers that are associated with every level of the being.
So I would have experiences of another somebody that's called cosmic
consciousness that has to do with the opening of the third eye and beyond where.
In again in a in a moment where I remember where I remember exactly where I was and and
this hasn't just occurred once is what are these kinds of things would occur repeatedly.
Such that in the space of being outside and the occasion
where there was just a lot of devotees and he was there and.
We were chanting at that time if I remember correctly and we engaged in a lot of different forms of singing
and dancing and such and ecstatic dancing like Sufi's dancing different ways of being moved in the spirit.
And then suddenly without like an intention to cause this there was an expansive opening in and
above and beyond the head that then allowed me to feel again the interconnectedness with everything.
You know that it was just light there was just an illumination of light and everything
that was moving around me was just these beautiful forms of lights and beings and enjoy.
And that and not separate no one was separate in that at all and and realizing and feeling even if
as attention and energy and different moments when I would have this experience again also that.
It was permeating and moving into being aware that there were passageways within which you could move into to feel this that
weren't the same as just going from where I'm sitting now into the down the hallway in another room, but in fact there are.
In the above the brows and and I'm not speaking about just merely like as if you're going up into the sky but
described as the sky of mind that there's infinite numbers of possible doorways or passageways that I entered into.
You know at different moments in time to be able to experience what people will describe about having a relationship
to somebody who's not physically embodied or hearing communications from somebody who's not physically embodied.
So these kinds of experiences were not uncommon.
They were actually fairly common and another one also that occurred when I
was in Hawaii and another somebody which is called ascended near of a kelp.
It's a body is that just one day after coming home from going to the beach a beautiful
day at the beach and coming home and lying down on the bed afterwards and suddenly.
The whole being is just brought out of the body and the body,
the whole sense of being in a physical body is entirely let go.
And yet I'm awake and I'm still conscious I'm still
awake and all there is is just infinite light. Infinite light.
Absolute freedom infinite light. Completely forgetting everyone and everything in this joy of ascension.
And then back into the body and yet that brilliance or that
energy of light the profundity of it then had stayed with me.
You know in terms of like I have to tell you about how amazing you know we are light there is only light.
We just send from the light you know and it was like absolute freedom.
So that's another form of an experience. It's a samadhi. Another one is what's called sabakopa samadhis and these sabakopa samadhis are even more ascended than what you might
experience through the passageways that I was describing to you that are associated with the brain mind and above.
There's also sabakopa samadhis which go into realms where you
experience or feel combined with colors like in distinct forms.
There's one that's called the blue bindu or there's also the going through
or penetrating the star form and also the rings of the rainbow colors around.
It's just like shapes and forms and sounds and lights and again. It doesn't have a defined kind of a way of
familiarity with what we see in finite forms. But you actually realize that this physical body is
at a more primal sense and related to light itself. It's actually just made a vibratory light, vibratory sound and that revelation comes
through forms of realization of penetrating the bindu and going above and beyond.
I'm speaking here in specific terms that are again, as you say, more broad
or general, but the specific experiences that I had are not unique to me.
And one of the things that occurred around Adi Da is that everybody had different
experiences and some people would have certain experiences of a kind a lot.
And other devotees would have other experiences that were different and they'd have them a lot.
And some people didn't have hardly any experiences at all.
And would be really frustrated about the fact that they didn't have experiences and where some people would be having so many experiences.
It would be annoying, you know, get to the point where it was ridiculous. And that was part of what Adi Da was working with in terms of
combining with the fact that everybody has experiences all the time.
So the seeking of these experiences and the samadhis was not
actually the point of our process in relationship to him.
And even the experiences that Yogi's saints and sages and have sought
to experience throughout time because these experiences do inform you.
And if you're a true spiritual practitioner and continue to do this sadna within any tradition that's associated with these
samadhis, then there can be a sustaining of the nectar or the bliss that actually informs you in terms of how to live.
So we learned all of this in the context of being in the Ashram and
we examined all of these experiences, Yogi, mystical, spiritual.
And then the another samadhi, of course, that I had was Guyana near Vakalpa samadhi.
And this is associated with what the Guyana's experience is the non-dual self or the Atman.
And this is actually an aspect of practice that I practice the most, which would tell me something about my being in terms of its deeper personality
or the soul or various experiences that I may have had in previous lifetimes that I gravitated towards experiences that were established in the causal.
The causal knot is associated with the right side of the heart.
And the subtle knot is associated with the center of the heart. And the left side of the heart is characterizes
the gross being or the gross knot. And all of these knots were being undone through the transmission of the
bright and then synchronously associated with the cycle biography of the ego.
So with me, when I practice the sixth stage Yogi, which is against another matter to talk about when I refer to sixth stage,
because if you study Adi Da teaching, he describes the seventh stage process in relationship to the six stages of life.
These six stages of life are just ways of describing again a way of a tool to be able to understand the structural mechanisms and the heart and the
dimensions of existence, the developmental responsibilities of the being and how to function in relationship to these responsibilities and experiences.
So the seventh stage of life for associated also then with the chakras is just his, the tool that he
offered, you know, in the form of his teaching for people to relate to these possible experiences.
So when I was after 1986, I was initiated into Son Yos as a swami.
And this is amusing, just because what we did is we
didn't just have these experiences and study about them.
We took on the whole costume of it.
So we would take on the costume of actually embracing the yoga as a Giani Son Yosin.
As if say I was in the Jane tradition, or I was a devotee of you know, Ramana Maharshi or some non-dual, you know,
practice where there was a complete letting go of engaging in certain functional aspects of the being like we didn't,
we fasted for a long time and we didn't eat very much. We ate very simply, we're celibate, you know, we spent a lot of time in meditation.
And synchronous with that, though, we did fulfill the responsibilities of, you know, taking
care of one another in the environment and the oshram and services that we did there.
But at this time, I spent a lot of time in meditation and in contemplation and in study around this.
And I actually, it was in this, the samadhi that established
me prior to the, not in the right side of the heart.
Now, this yoga is not one that's really commonly understood because people are
more interested in the fascinated experiences that you can have in Kundalini yoga.
Where Kundalini yoga actually has more to do with a subtle part and how the subtle heart
and the experiences there in can actually grant you experiences that are pleasurable.
Whereas with the yoga of the gianni and the awakening and
the, um, of the ottoman, it's actually a null and void.
There's no experience except for the bliss of the heart itself.
And so all sense of phenomenal awareness and the
sense of the psychophysical structure falls away.
I'm under the impression from your descriptions that on the one hand, these states of samadhi are not permanent.
It's like being on the high wire or something, you can't stay there forever. But on the other hand, they leave you permanently changed.
Yes, yes. And, and that also that the, the permanent of it would depend on a few matters.
One is that what is the transmission of the, the teacher and the master
and the, and the song up in the ashram or the circumstance that you're in.
So that you're being constantly imbued and reignited in that understanding or that yoga.
Or are you actually doing the practice and the sadna required
for that awakening to be sustained and the purpose of it? So that requires a real serious aspirant to sustain the practice.
And, and also would be the matter of to what degree are you able to be self-discipline and
living what would allow the mechanism of the body mind to conform to what was revealed in that.
So there is a knowledge that can be sustained, but I noticed that for myself that was this was really frustrating is that while there was an abundance of
these experiences, the ability to be able to hold on to the bliss or the nectar or whatever it was that I was hoping that I was going to be able to sustain.
Suddenly it was just there was nothing you could do to hold on to it. It was like no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't get
back to that, no matter how hard I tried to do that. So that it soon became clear to me that while there were these profound possibilities and
these profound experiences that for me personally, I wasn't born as an accomplished yoga.
You know, some people are actually born this way, which literally so there are people who are granted these experiences and then can teach them.
You know, then life is devoted to that and they are unique beings, I'm not that kind of person.
That's not what my karmas were about coming into this embodiment.
And also is that I was, by habit, an addict, like not a disciplined personality.
And so my energy and attention would wander, you know, into desiring
something different, whereas, you know, for some people to sustain this.
The bliss of these commodities that aren't associated with just eating something that you enjoy and getting pleasure that way.
This pleasure or enjoyment is within the ethereal or astral or higher mind or psychic dimension or higher
dimensions that are revealed through the various commodities that how the heck am I going to maintain that.
But what was extraordinary is that these were gifts from given for free and they weren't taken away.
It was just that because they were cost of possibility, these these realms and these commodities and these experiences are available to anyone.
It just depends upon whether you're available for them, what you associate with whether you receive the transmission,
whether you're in a culture, whether you do the sadna, whether you're seeking that, how you want to make use of it.
So yeah, it could be, but the frustration was the important part because there was a reseeking to want to experience something again.
And that is a crux of what Adi Da describes as radical self understanding is that once you were seeking for
something outside the self position, you actually separate yourself from that which is inherently blissful.
Always already the case that's a language that he will use as he describes the realization of the self condition.
It's always already the case. If you seek for something else
outside that position and condition, you separate yourself from it.
And then you become this seeking for it through experiential possibilities.
Return of the ego
You described in our previous interview, if I recall correctly that you and some of the other advanced practitioners would have experiences that you described, I think, as seventh stage
experiences, which in an Adi Da system that would be sort of the ultimate, but then you would find yourself back in the first three stages of life still dealing with other unresolved problems.
Okay, that's a really important question because it indicates to me that you're
hearing something about very clearly what I'm communicating, which is important to me.
Because it's not easy to grasp these esotericisms, and I would think that your availability
to it has a lot to do with you being available to feel and think outside the square.
And the vast amount of experiences that you have had in terms of your relationship to people in your own life and process, which I don't know
a lot about, but I'm just grateful that you asked that question because that's fundamental to the entire process and relationship to him.
You, his life story or what we call a Lila, which is a divine story, and
also our relationship to him while he was in body and after his death.
And it is exactly what we are dealing with as a gathering is that we
were constantly given the transmission of the seventh stage realization.
And again, the truth of the matter is that you can't hold onto it.
It does require the foundation preparation of the mechanism of the body mind to be free of
the bondage that energy and attention draws you into if it is identified with the ego act.
And that is no easy process. It is a profound process.
And it can't even define in anyone's particular unique manifestation, even through lifetimes, at
the point at which that perfect and permanent awakening will take hold. It's an entire unknown.
It doesn't, it's not wielding to being, it's not a program that you do this, this, this, and this, and you achieve it. It doesn't happen that way.
And it also refers back to your friends saying to you, when we sit in meditation or receive the Darshan or
the transmission, it is being conducted or done by the realizer or the process of the transmission itself.
So yes, many of us actually did. In this occurred prior to moving to the island in Fiji, where there were many
devotees who had acknowledged as seventh stage practitioners of large number.
And it was an incredible celebration because it was, I mean, this was,
you know, a couple of decades for some who had been around for myself.
I haven't been that long, but these devotees who he did acknowledge for this transition,
they were experienced what was called the consistent awakening into the feeling of being.
No matter what was arising, it was never lost. So the
seventh stage realization is being consciously awake.
In the consciousness domain that is inclusive of everyone and everything simultaneously, consistently combined
with love bliss itself, the nectar of love bliss itself, that is one and the same as consciousness itself.
So the realization of the seventh stage non-dual gift or condition of the
self is no difference whatsoever between consciousness and love bliss itself.
You're consciously awake and being able to live as love bliss perpetually, never lost.
That is happiness, that is freedom, that is joy and that's the gift of his transmission.
And that was his demonstration and what we felt in the process of living with him and seeing
him demonstrate that, no matter what he was associating with and no matter how he was working,
even in the midst of all of the emotions being expressed as a human being. There was no dissociation in relationship at all.
So when he acknowledged these devotees, we were at a place called Charlie's
Place, it was an island in Fiji, before we went to Naitauba Island.
And this is actually an extraordinary story that I really want to tell because it's really
graphic, is that I was not one of those devotees that was acknowledged at that time.
And everybody was wanting to get acknowledgement from the guru. In terms of being blessed as saying, yes, this experience means that and
therefore you're the best practitioner and therefore you have this role. And then you play this function, you know, that's where the eagle politics of religious and spiritual practice
come into being is playing that game with the guru or the teacher or the divine itself playing that game.
You're not relating to the process itself with integrity, with heart integrity, integrity if you get involved with those games.
And on this island was a moment in time in which it was decided that, okay, there's these certain practitioners
who are showing certain signs of availability to go on what was called the feeling of being retreat.
And on this feeling of being retreat, they were given a specific
admonition that was about be conscious as the feeling of being.
Be conscious as the feeling of being and
realize that it is radiant happiness itself.
That was the admonition of the yoga of devotees who had been serious practitioners for a long time.
And in that retreat there were many devotees confessing and awakening to this that did was not lost.
In other words, they didn't come too after an experience. It was actually something that they felt that they had become
consciously capable of conducting and taking responsibility for. It wasn't just an experience. It was a responsibility for and a participation in.
And so this was occurring and then there was an acknowledgement of the seventh stage transitions. And there was initiation happening and celebration.
And in the midst of this occurring, I, of course, got it that, you know, I didn't get to go on the retreat.
And therefore I was the one that had to end up making the meals, taking
care of the kids, cleaning the bathrooms, taking care of the ground.
You know, I haven't been as long a practitioner. So I wasn't, you know, able to participate in all of that.
And I wouldn't notice though that the communications that I would get from devotees as they were describing what they were experiencing is that,
Yeah, but, but I, I feel that similarly, but I wasn't less
to engage that or being acknowledged as being able to to
Practice that practice and the seventh stage realization. And as was understood traditionally in the context of the Guru devotee relationship,
you have to be very, very keenly available to follow the instruction of the Guru, even if it rubs you wrong in terms of saying,
Well, I want to be like that person. Can't, can't I do that practice? I don't like this practice that you're giving me.
I'd rather do something else or be somewhere else. Whereas we would accept that the process as it was being given
by the Guru was one that was perfect for us individually. So he never gave a blanket instruction to anybody.
It was always unique to each individual. And that's why he could only work with a few that he called his coins or people
that he would work with that could represent certain patterns of humanity.
And he would work through them to be able to instruct how to relate to these qualities and these experiences.
So I happen to be the one that seemed to be the one that was always underdog.
You know, it's like, I'm the gross one that just, you know, can, I'll do the very simple things. Well, I'm noticing that I'm having a lot of these phenomenal
experiences too, but I'm not getting acknowledged. Okay, well, that's perfect for someone who likes to get a lot of attention.
You see? Okay. And so different levels of the being are being
worked with simultaneously where you want attention. Okay. Take the discipline of not being acknowledged.
Take on the certain disciplines that counter your addictions to pleasure. So you be sad a bit longer than some, but I'm done the others.
And all by yourself, you know, those kinds of things. And so at this particular moment in time, I was given
this discipline to care for his children, which I loved. And and the other children. There was a number of, there was probably maybe at least,
sirs, there was four high students and maybe ten children with us at that time. And one night while I was on child care duty.
And a lot of the other devotees were on retreat. It was in the middle of the night that this happened.
And we have a mala that we use similar to other traditions where
they will do prayer or invocation through making use of the beads,
saying mantras or prayers or whatever is a form of remembrance or remembering the practice or the sodna.
And typically speaking, it was recommended that you don't wear these things when you go to sleep at night.
Because there's a tendency or liability to become unconscious unless you're
actually able to practice in this dreaming state and the sleep state,
which is something that we did develop and experiment with. But at this point in time, it was recommended that we should typically
take these sacred articles off and put them on a sacred altar.
And so that night for some reason I had a really strong feeling that I shouldn't do that. So I trusted my intuition and I kept it on.
So as I fell asleep in the middle of the night, as I rolled over, there's what's called a main prayer bead or a master bead,
the principle bead that's larger than the other ones. And I rolled over and it hit that hit me in the middle of the chest and it woke me up.
And as it woke me up, I looked over as I was lying in bed and I noticed
out the less side of my eye that there were flames, like fire flames. And it didn't really strike me.
I was, I thought, am I dreaming or what? But immediately I realized that there's fire in the building that I'm in.
And so, and in the building that I'm in, I'm in bed and there's another woman cut Sue in the building with me.
And we have seven children in the room with us that are sleeping in different beds.
So we're, you know, caring for all the children and had put them to bed and they're sleeping.
And suddenly I jumped out of bed and I said, cut Sue, wake up all the
children immediately and get all of us out the door as quick as possible.
Because these flames, when I looked over and at the bottom of one of the beds, there were flames right at the head of one of the children.
And had I not been woken up in that moment. I don't know what would have happened. But I jumped out of bed and I grabbed the feet of this
child and pulled them towards me as quick as possible. His name was me. And I put him up on my hip and then I put the other child who
was non-lela onto my other hip and I ran out the front door. And set them on the ground.
And then I ran back in and I got the other two children that were on the other side of the bed and had them on my hips and ran out the door.
And cut Sue did the same with the other children that were in the other beds in the front room. And then as soon as I got with the last children
on my hip out the door, the building exploded.
Actually exploded and I went catapulting out onto the ground away from the building.
And we sat there with the children and we've caught Sue and I. And then other devotees in the other buildings running towards us.
And we sat there in the whole saw the whole building. Go up in flames and dissolve in front of us.
So as we then all went to be with Adi Da, because it was his children were in that circumstance.
And there was, as you would imagine, there was weeping. There was shaking, there was trauma.
There was what the heck is this about. It was really, really horrifying.
But I communicated to him what had occurred in that moment.
And you know, in terms of what woke me up. And the interesting part about that, my communication to him,
was another moment in which I wanted to get attention and congratulations for what had occurred in that event.
And it was in my understanding or acknowledging that that I realized that there was a binding,
self-attention, wanting to be recognized for my participation in the spiritual process
and the mystery of how grace had actually intervened and saved, literally saved our lives.
Now that kind of a graphic event is something you will never forget.
So the knowledge of my understanding of the way that grace intervenes
or the mystery of how the spiritual process or God or whatever you want to attribute it to,
but the fact that there are unexpected interventions of the divine
into the life of individuals is nothing that I can account for. Or that I deserve, or that I can say it's because I believe a certain thing,
or that I did a certain practice, or I am who I am, or whatever, you cannot account for it.
But in that moment, he explained to us that what was occurring is that he, the forces within the force field of our coming into Fiji were playing with us,
playing with playing with our coming into their field of ownership of the domain.
You know, gross mechanisms and darker forces that were not necessarily wanting their playing
or wanting to see what kind of force of intervention our presence there would be in their domain.
And some people might think that's crazy to say, but it actually is true. These forces are active in the world today, and at many different levels.
So Adi Da was saying that because of my relationship to him and because of the divine process
that manifested not only through him, but the divine itself. I want to make that clear.
Adi Da never spoke of himself separate from and identifying as the ego itself
that what he was doing had anything other than to do with the divine self-condition, not himself separately, but the divine self-condition working through him,
and that he realized the oneness of that identity that is true of everyone and everything. So he was saying this is true of you too.
And in our community and in that context of divinity in the divine self-condition, there is the possibility for the intervention of miracles to occur.
All sorts of experiences can occur. And this is a graphic moment again of showing me that possibility.
And then the next morning after we woke up, when we spent hours there with one another with the parents
and the children and with Adi Da and comforting and loving and going beyond the trauma through touch
and through food and through love and through invocation and gratitude.
All of that, realizing literally we could have died. And then in that moment the next morning,
Beloved Brought Adi Da brought the retreat to an end. The retreats to an end.
And then we sat with him the next morning. And I remember describing to him that I had a dream,
where I, again, it was a reflection of what occurred,
which was that I was flying again. It was a lucid dream where I was awake in the dream and I was flying.
And conscious of the fact that I was holding onto Adi Da's toe
as I was going through these realms. And it was the acknowledgement in the subtle
or realm that I had been saved by this grace. And so I described to him again in the morning this experience that I had.
And then again, I noticed very subtly that I was still wanting this acknowledgement.
Like I was the one that saved the babies, okay? Relentless, going back to your question,
is why is it that the realization gets lost? It's the desire for attention or the desire to grant attention to the separate self,
persona and identity rather than the yielding and being given over into the divine self position
or condition that is the heart of everyone and everything. So there's no separation.
Now it wasn't that people were not grateful for to me. I'm not wanting or that he wasn't.
There wasn't that kind of thing. But he was giving me some really critically important instruction about the liability of attention,
either seeking it or wanting it, seeking via attention or wanting attention to the separate self.
And then in that moment I was expecting like, Cha, or like that was a kind of a cha, or a cha,
or an acknowledgement from him, which was a common word that he would use, where he would something that was pleasing to him,
that would acknowledge something that was a right relationship to the process itself and to him is the siddha Guru.
And in that moment he didn't give that to me again. What he said and no uncertain terms and very close to my faces,
if you want to realize me, you were going to have to do a whole hell of a lot more than hang on to my big toe.
That is what requires realization, is not an experience, but a responsibility for the real sought and a required.
So while I've had numerous circumstances, or moments in time or experiences of this unqualified feeling of being
and the inherent radiance of loveless permeating me and being literally
intervention and penetration of it through every chakra of this being,
the responsibility rests in relationship to life itself to be due to sadness and be undone.
In terms of the seeking mechanism of the ego act, via the mechanism of attention.
Postmortem spiritual connection
Julie, can you talk a little bit about what it has been like for you to be in
relationship to him since his death? Yes, yes. So I actually am grateful that I had a period of time where I wasn't physically
so close to him 24-7 before he passed away.
Being with the liabilities of the gross body mind,
we're always dealing with the fear of death, as if it's going to be a consummate ending.
And that everything that we are related to will die.
There'll be the inevitable sorrow, the inevitable pain, and the denial, even, that it's going to happen,
seeking immortality in various ways to prevent the inevitable death of the one that you love.
And Adi Da's teaching is very much combined with the reality process
of facing that fact that the beloved loved one dies in this world
in the form of an apparent other psychophysical mechanism, even experience itself is not permanent,
the impermanence of everything. And he calls that positive disillusionment. So as I described to you when I first came around him,
I was so in love that I forgot the world. And my attachment was so fierce, I didn't ever want to be anywhere else
because the feeling of love bliss of his human form and his transmission and this realization was so profound
that I had no desire to be anywhere apart from right on his body as much as I possibly could.
And yet that didn't happen. And the reason it didn't happen was it was necessary
from the own process of real reality, consideration, and realization to become a responsibility
that I could then do the sudden or required to sustain that gift. So when I left in 1992 unexpectedly,
because I had been a devotee for long enough, I knew that I could trust his instruction
and his blessing that I need to go and be with Nick, because it wasn't arbitrary that I happened to fall in love.
And there was no never any denial relative to what we felt or experienced in relationship to no matter who we were.
I was considered Adi Da's woman. You know, I was his lover. So for this to happen, it was an unexpected thing.
So when I accepted that, I had to go through an extraordinary process of release
even though I was in love with another man. I was still in love with him,
which is holy, possible, not only as a man, but also in love with him
as the siddha Guru and with the transmission that he gave. So my life became a process of how do I live
in the world with another man, and now getting back in touch with my blood family.
And how do I do that also in love with the Guru, even humanly still? And after six years of having been celebrated,
okay? So it was like, alright, this is, I felt like I was a cat with another lifetime.
You know, it was a whole new paradigm. Okay, this is another life I'm going to have
to live and adapt to, and yet I trusted enough that I knew it was significant and important to do so.
So to not go into all the reverberations of what occurred for that, it was an extrication of that attachment
and also realizing that even though I had lived a profoundly advanced yoga that was associated
with the sixth stage yoga of possibilities, one thing about the seventh stages of life
that has to be understood is that even though one can experience these profound yoga and some bodies and experiences,
if the entire mechanism of the body mind has not become unbound from energy and attention
gravitating towards seeking through the different mechanisms of life, structure, the seventh stages of life,
even as an infantile mode of or even as an adolescent or even as a human being or even as a religious practitioner,
a mystic or a yoga or a piano. If all of those responsibility hasn't been taken
for the calmness of the being being submitted into the yoga and the sadness of the bright,
then you'll be drawn back. You will inevitably be drawn back to have to unhandle business
and this ability to unhandle to handle unhandle business requires you to be in life.
So I was required to be in the world. That was a sudden I had to do.
And in doing so, I learned that and he participated with me in this every step of the way.
That's when I said the relationship didn't end because everything that I experienced even at a distance, I was in dialogue with him about.
As was Nick, as with other devotees that I lived with, as was devotees who were still close to him,
who knew me, as were his children that I was very, very intimate with, you know, and help raise them.
It was a death for me to have to leave because of this proximity and intimacy with all of these devotees
who were around him. And yet he tried every way possible to see, well, let's see, can you and Nick then come back
and actually live in my house together? You know, because there were men and women who had other intimacy times that might be close around him
and they had children. There were different configurations. In other words, it wasn't a scripture or a script
of any kind that had to be maintained. So, or I would live with Nick
and then we also had to consider it times well, does Nick want another intimate? Did I want another intimate?
Was I going to do what work? What service was I going to do and relationship to him and to the different gathering
different possibilities within the ashrams that were established or the centers or the households or the communities?
So I lived a lot of that. And as that occurred, oh, and I can feel that I feel it.
There's an inherent sorrow that one will always feel at the heart
that is part of positive disillusionment that you have to accept that you will not be able to hold on to that
which you love. You will inevitably be separated from it.
You will inevitably die in this apparent dynamic here and you don't know how
what aspect of manifestation you will appear in again even as what's experienced when you go into near-death experiences
and people feel that they're living or revisiting or combining with different aspects of their previous life or other lifetimes
will be unknown of what occurs after you die. I also began to become aware of that
during this time when I actually left his physical company that the karma that I was dealing with were not just with this physical gross body
mind but subtle aspects of the being of reincarnation or past life or potentials.
All of that was beginning to be dealt with and then also the synchronous process with awakening beyond that cozy place
in the Atman where no experience arises. The no-envoyed, the bliss of non-duality
where you don't have to deal with life. It's like I have nothing to do with all of that anymore.
I'm just going to sit here in this place in the depth of meditation and I'm going to feel this bliss or nothing arises.
Well, that is still access by virtue of the act of attention
itself and the sense of the separate self even though it is extremely my mood
in terms of the experience of it. So as I went away from his physical company
the process continued in a regulatory fashion that brought me to release that attachment to him physically.
So when he passed on, I had a relationship to him that was not about that same level of attachment
because I trusted the process of a different and more profound level. And therefore I was able to relate to life
as though it wasn't a poison that I had to avoid. Or somehow our association with it
exhibited some level of promiscuousness in relationship to the fidelity to truth itself that I had to be careful
to even acknowledge that it existed. Being afraid that I was attracted to this situation
or I wanted to discover what did these practitioners do? So I combined even with other practitioners
other religious spiritual organizations other teachers in various ways and hearing people stories and working in places
that wasn't a sacred space or I was cleaning houses or ran a business where I was hosting guests.
I had so many different experiences in life and every single experience always proved the same thing
over and over again, which was the inherent self-authentication of the divine self-condition
being the only constant in the midst of any and everything continuing to arise.
And this is the truly non-dual reality with eyes open,
which is called Sahaja, near Vakalpa, Samadhi, which is the unqualified Samadhi of the bright.
And this is why it's actually a Samadhi that is actually always already the case and open and inclusive of everyone in everything
because there's no separate being within it. I mean, we do acknowledge that we exist, right?
We very, really exist, but there isn't the same assumption that would create conflict within or problems or differentiation
or desires that would then create conflict or ownership of politics that would justify the absolute mayhem
that we are experiencing, continuing to experience today on this globe.
And it continues in, so when he passed away, that has that process is continued
and then the other aspect of it, with the cult aspect of it, is realizing even more profoundly finding myself
in the position now that I'm outside, the formal, the acknowledged, gathering,
that are the ones who are responsible for these treasures of sanctuaries and sacred spaces
and his teaching and all the gifts that he gave. And I'm finding that there are the politics
of what's still reverberating as the cultic manifestation of Adi Da is still going on.
I'm having to then be extricated from the dramatization of that cultic attachment
even to the organization that is meant to carry on his work and saying, hey, hello,
which I'm not the only one saying this. This gathering is not going to grow and it will inherently not grow
because it's not lawful if there is not the true sign of the seventh stage yoga.
So that's why we're still a relatively small organization, you see. And even though I'm noticing as time goes on,
hundreds of thousands of people actually know about Adi Da but there's so much misunderstanding
around what happened and why and why it was communicated out into the world as forms of whatever.
Which I don't have a problem with, I have no problem with because it's just mine
and it makes, it has its logic. You know, in terms of why somebody may feel what they do without shame or blame or reaction
or making them an enemy. None of that has anything to do but cultists do that.
The cult of pairs creates, for example, exactly what's happening in Israel
and Palestine today. And all the wars of the world is based upon the politics of the cult of pairs.
And so this is a profundity that I feel is really important to begin to communicate. I don't know if you've seen Adi Da
spoke about not two is peace which is his communication about the prior unity
within which everybody all at once has one must become
the voice of humanity rather than that cult of pairs that we give power over to
even within ourselves. You know, the voice that wants to be the opponent that wants to win
that wants to fight, that wants to destroy that really gets off on conflict.
It's ugly, but if you don't see that shadow and you aren't really aware of it
and responsible for it, you will only be caught in the active attention and the duality that it creates.
So that's that. So that's on the dog, the giver. Julie, it's a wonderful story
Conclusion
that you've shared. And I know there's yet another chapter. We haven't really gotten into
the expression of Adi Da's teachings
since his death. I mean, we touched on it a little. But what I would like to do
is invite you back one more time at least to amplify that point.
I think it was really the main motivator for you to reach out to me in the first place. Yes, and unexpectedly,
I was, I didn't even expect the response because you know on YouTube, particularly for individuals
who have a fairly large conversation with a lot of people. And I was like,
and have been engaged in these conversations for a long time. I'm just like, hello,
I really appreciate what you're doing. Maybe I could say something. So thank you so much for
responding. And I'm indebted to you for that. Well, I would say that
I'm indebted to you and the viewers of new thinking allowed are indebted to you. You are a gift to the world.
So I'm very happy that that I responded. And frankly, I get a lot of emails like that
and most of them I don't respond to. And all this for lack of time. But I followed my intuition
and I'm glad I did. And I'm very happy we had this time together. And I look forward to
at least one more conversation with you. I'm open to it. Even if we don't record, you know,
I will go to the states at some point. And I'll be happy to and really grateful to spend time with you. Yeah.
Well, thank you so much. And for now, bless you.
And for those of you watching or listening, thank you for being with us
because you are the reason that we are here. I imagine that by now,
many of you already realize that in conjunction with white crow books,
we've just launched and I'm very happy that we're here. I imagine that by now,
many of you already realize that in conjunction with white crow books, we've just launched
the new thinking aloud dialogues book imprint and our first title
is, is their life after death. New Thinking Allowed is a non-profit endeavor
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