Gary Burge on What Christians Get Wrong About Israel/Palestine
Fares Abraham
6,473 views Mar 8, 2025 The Fares Abraham Podcast
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Have Christians misunderstood God’s covenant with Israel?
Does the Bible actually grant Israel ownership of the land, or does it teach something entirely different? What if the key to understanding the Holy Land isn’t geography—but Christ Himself?
In this eye-opening conversation, Dr. Fares Abraham sits down with Dr. Gary Burge to challenge some of the deepest-held beliefs in Christian theology about Israel, Palestine, the land, and the gospel.
Many Christians assume that modern Israel’s claim to the land is biblically justified—but is that what the Bible actually teaches?
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📖 Key Topics We Explore:
What the Old Testament teaches about land, divine covenant, and whether Israel truly “owns” the land.
How Jesus’ cultural context changes how we interpret His teachings and parables.
Why the New Testament redefines holiness and God’s presence—shifting from geography to Christ Himself.
The historical realities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that many Christians overlook.
Whether you’re a pastor, ministry leader, student, or someone seeking a deeper biblical understanding beyond political narratives, this conversation will challenge your assumptions and provide a fresh, historically rooted perspective on the Holy Land.
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The Fares Abraham Podcast is your gateway to untold faith stories from the Middle East and to a gospel-centered perspective on the region. Join Dr. Fares Abraham, a Palestinian-American leader, writer, and speaker, as he engages in thought-provoking conversations that elevate your perspective and deepen your faith. Through insightful discussions with leading voices, this podcast unpacks the cultural, theological, and contemporary issues shaping our world—challenging conventional narratives and calling you to a faith that is both deeply rooted and powerfully relevant.
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🌐 Visit https://faresabraham.com to learn how you can get involved and become a partner in this important mission. Sign up for our newsletter to receive exclusive updates from the region and powerful stories of transformation and changed lives.
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📚 Get Dr. Gary Burge’s book: Whose Land? Whose Promise? → https://www.amazon.com/Whose-Land-Pro...
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"Together for the Middle East" Statement: https://togetherme.org
What do YOU think? Has modern Christianity misunderstood Israel’s place in biblical theology? Share your thoughts in the comments below! 👇
#Israel #Palestine #HolyLand #GaryBurge #FaresAbraham #BiblicalTruth #ChristianPodcast #IsraelPalestineConflict #Theology #TheFaresAbrahamPodcast #Gaza #Jerusalem #MiddleEast
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00:00 Start
00:36 Introduction & Context
02:26 Gary's Time in the Middle East
04:52 Theology of the Land
11:40 The Historical Significance of the Land
15:20 Replacement Theology
21:10 Two-covenant Theology
29:06 Anti-semitism vs Call for Justice
32:51 Trivializing the Struggle
41:24 Supporting a Just Solution
47:05 Meaning Engagement by the American Church
52:55 Jesus' Cultural Context
57:33 Parting Thoughts
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세진님, 요청하신 자료를 바탕으로 개리 버지(Gary Burge) 박사와 파레스 아브라함(Fares Abraham) 박사의 대담 내용을 분석하여 요약 및 평론을 작성하였다
<누구의 땅인가? 누구의 약속인가?>: 이스라엘-팔레스타인 갈등에 대한 신학적 재고
요약: 지리적 성지에서 그리스도 중심의 거룩함으로
개리 버지 박사는 이스라엘과 팔레스타인 갈등을 바라보는 현대 기독교인의 시각에 근본적인 의문을 제기한다
1. 땅의 소유권에 대한 성경적 이해
구약성서에서 땅은 이스라엘의 배타적 소유물이 아니다
2. 신약의 영적 지리학: 그리스도라는 장소
신약성서는 세계의 영적 지리학을 완전히 변화시킨다
3. 현대 이스라엘 국가와 기독교의 오해
버지 박사는 현대 세속 국가인 이스라엘을 구약의 언약 공동체와 동일시하는 <이중 언약 신학>을 비판한다
4. 교회의 예언자적 소명
교회는 담장 안에 머물며 안락함을 누리는 것에 만족해서는 안 된다
평론: 민족적 경계를 넘어선 보편적 정의의 요청
본 대담에서 개리 버지 박사가 펼치는 논지는 현대 복음주의 기독교 내에 뿌리 깊게 박힌 세대주의적 이스라엘관에 대한 강력한 신학적 해독제 역할을 한다
첫째, 소유권에서 책임으로의 인식 전환이다. 버지는 이스라엘의 땅 점유를 권리가 아닌 <조건부 사용권>으로 재정의한다
둘째, 기독교적 시온주의의 우상화에 대한 경고이다. 많은 그리스도인이 현대 이스라엘의 군사적 승리나 영토 확장을 성경 예언의 성취로 오해한다
셋째, 그리스도 중심주의의 철저한 관철이다. 버지 신학의 핵심은 거룩함의 이동이다
다만, 그의 논의가 실제적인 정치적 해결책(예: 일국가 또는 이국가 방안)에 있어서는 역사학자들의 회의적인 시각을 인용하며 다소 비관적인 전망에 그치고 있다는 점은 아쉬움으로 남는다
결론적으로 개리 버지의 통찰은 <거룩한 땅>에 대한 집착을 버리고, <거룩한 삶>과 <공의로운 관계>를 회복하라는 성경의 본질적인 메시지로 우리를 초대한다
보고서 작성 참고 지침 준수 확인:
세진님 호칭 사용 및 존댓말 적용.
반말(<해라> 체)을 사용한 요약 및 평론 작성.
모든 영어 책 제목을 한국어로 번역.
별표 대신 < > 사용 및 LaTeX 미사용.
제시된 문서 내용에 기반한 정확한 인용 표시.
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다음은 업로드된 대화/강의 자료를 바탕으로 한 <1,000단어 요약 + 평론>입니다.
(자료 출처: )
<요약 (Summary)>
이 대화는 신약학자 Gary Burge와 팔레스타인계 기독교 지도자 Fares Abraham 사이의 인터뷰로, “기독교가 이스라엘-팔레스타인 문제를 어떻게 오해해왔는가”라는 질문을 중심으로 전개된다. 핵심 논지는 <성서의 ‘땅’ 개념, 예수 중심 신학, 현대 이스라엘 국가와의 관계, 그리고 기독교의 정치적 책임>이다.
1. 구약의 ‘땅’ 개념 재해석
Burge의 첫 번째 핵심 주장은 “성경이 이스라엘의 토지 ‘소유권’을 인정하지 않는다”는 것이다.
- 창세기에서 하나님은 아브라함에게 땅을 약속하지만
- 레위기에서는 “땅은 하나님 것이며 인간은 거류민”으로 규정된다
- 따라서 이스라엘은 “소유자(owner)”가 아니라 “임차인(tenant)”이다
또한 “영원한 소유”라는 표현도 현대적 의미의 영구 소유권이 아니라
→ “지속적이지만 조건적인 관계”를 의미한다고 해석한다.
더 중요한 점은
→ 땅에 거할 권리는 “언약적 정의(covenantal righteousness)”에 달려 있다는 것
즉,
- 정의롭지 않으면 땅에서 쫓겨난다 (바빌론 포로 등)
- 타자(외국인, 이방인)에 대한 윤리도 핵심 조건이다
이로써 Burge는 “성경적 토지 약속 = 무조건적 정치적 권리”라는 해석을 부정한다.
2. 신약: ‘거룩한 장소 → 그리스도 중심’으로 이동
두 번째 핵심은 신약에서 일어나는 급진적 변화이다.
Burge에 따르면 신약은
→ “영적 지리(spiritual geography)” 자체를 재편한다
- 구약: 성전, 예루살렘 중심
- 신약: 예수 그리스도 자체가 하나님의 임재
요한복음 1:14 (“말씀이 육신이 되어 거하심”)은
→ 성전 개념이 예수로 이동했음을 의미
오순절 이후에는
→ 공동체 자체가 성전이 된다
따라서 결론:
- 특정 땅이 본질적으로 거룩한 것이 아니라
- 하나님이 역사하신 사건 때문에 의미가 있을 뿐
즉,
→ “거룩한 땅” 개념은 더 이상 지리적 독점성을 갖지 않는다
3. ‘대체신학’과 ‘이중언약론’ 비판
Burge는 두 극단을 모두 비판한다.
(1) 대체신학 (Replacement Theology)
- 교회가 이스라엘을 완전히 대체했다는 주장
- 역사적으로 반유대주의를 낳음
→ Burge는 이를 거부하면서도
→ 신약에서 “어떤 형태의 전환”은 인정
(2) 이중언약론 (Two-Covenant Theology)
- 유대인은 별도의 언약으로 구원 가능
- 기독교는 별도의 길
→ Burge는 이것을 강하게 부정
→ “언약은 하나, 그리스도를 통한 것”
그러면서도 로마서 9–11장을 근거로
→ 유대인에 대한 “종말론적 희망”은 유지한다
4. 현대 이스라엘 국가와 성서의 단절
Burge의 가장 논쟁적인 주장은
→ “현대 이스라엘은 성경적 이스라엘과 동일하지 않다”는 것이다.
주요 논거:
- 현대 이스라엘 건국은 주로 동유럽 유대인의 세속적 프로젝트
- 초기 지도자들 상당수는 비종교적 또는 무신론적
-
성경은 ‘언약적 의로움’을 조건으로 하지만
→ 현대 국가는 세속 국가
따라서
→ “아브라함 → 네타냐후” 직선 연결은
역사적·신학적으로 무리라는 주장
5. 반유대주의 vs 정치 비판 구분
Burge는 중요한 구분을 강조한다:
- 반유대주의 = 유대인에 대한 인종적 혐오
- 이스라엘 정책 비판 = 정치적 비판
그는
→ 가자 공격 비판을 반유대주의로 규정하는 것은 부당하다고 본다
또한
→ 세계 곳곳의 유대인들 역시 이스라엘 정책을 비판하고 있다고 강조한다
6. 갈등의 본질: ‘종교’가 아니라 ‘식민주의적 토지 갈등’
Burge는 이 갈등을 다음과 같이 규정한다:
- 종교 전쟁 ❌
- 정치적·식민적 토지 분쟁 ⭕
그는 이를
→ 호주 원주민 문제, 남아공 아파르트헤이트와 비교한다
또한
→ 아랍-유대 적대는 본질적이 아니라
20세기 이후 정치적 과정에서 형성되었다고 본다
7. 해결책과 기독교의 역할
현실적 해결은 매우 비관적으로 본다.
가능한 시나리오:
- 두 국가 해법 → 사실상 불가능
- 하나의 국가 → 정치적으로 거부됨
- 완전한 배제 → 윤리적으로 불가능
그는 상대적으로
→ “하나의 국가 + 공존”을 가장 현실적 방향으로 본다
기독교의 역할:
- 정치에서 침묵하지 말 것
- “예언자적 목소리”를 낼 것
- 폭력에 대해 공개적으로 저항할 것
<평론 (Critical Review)>
1. 신학적 강점: “땅 → 그리스도” 전환의 설득력
Burge의 가장 강력한 기여는
→ “토지 중심 신학을 해체하고 그리스도 중심으로 재구성”한 점이다
이는 다음과 같은 흐름과 일치한다:
- 바울 신학
- 히브리서
- 초기 교회 보편주의
즉, 그의 주장은
→ 단순한 정치적 입장이 아니라
→ 상당히 정통적인 신약 신학 위에 서 있다
2. 그러나: 역사 해석의 단순화 문제
그의 약점은 역사 서술에서 드러난다.
예:
- “식민주의 프로젝트”로의 단순화
- 유대 디아스포라 역사 복잡성 축소
- 아랍-유대 관계의 긴장 요소 과소평가
즉,
→ 신학은 정교하지만
→ 역사 분석은 다소 선택적이다
3. 정치적 주장: 도덕적 명확성 vs 현실 복잡성
그의 도덕적 입장은 분명하다:
- 민간인 피해 비판
- 폭력 반대
- 정의 강조
그러나 문제는:
- 해결책 제시는 약하다
-
“하나의 국가”는 이상적이지만
현실 정치에서는 거의 불가능
→ 이상과 현실 사이 간극 존재
4. 기독교 비판: 매우 중요한 통찰
그가 지적한 핵심 문제는 매우 중요하다:
→ 서구 기독교가
성서를 정치적 정당화 도구로 사용한다는 점
특히:
- 기독교 시온주의
- “이스라엘 = 하나님의 뜻” 단순화
이 비판은
→ 신학적으로도, 윤리적으로도 타당하다
5. 핵심 긴장: “보편주의 vs 민족적 역사”
이 대화의 가장 깊은 철학적 긴장은 이것이다:
| 요소 | 의미 |
|---|---|
| 성서 | 특정 민족 이야기 |
| 복음 | 보편적 메시지 |
Burge는
→ 보편주의를 강조하며 민족적 특권을 해체한다
그러나 반대 입장은
→ 역사적 민족성 자체를 신학적으로 유지하려 한다
이 긴장이 바로
→ 현대 이스라엘-팔레스타인 신학 논쟁의 핵심이다
<결론>
이 자료는 단순한 정치 논쟁이 아니라
→ “성경 해석의 근본 문제”를 건드린다.
핵심 질문은 이것이다:
- 성경은 특정 민족의 토지 권리를 영원히 보장하는가?
- 아니면 그리스도를 통해 보편화되는가?
Burge는 분명히 후자를 선택한다.
그의 입장은
→ 신약 신학적으로 강력하지만
→ 역사·정치적으로는 논쟁적이다.
원하시면
→ <Rabbinic Judaism vs Christianity vs Islam 3자 구조 비교>
→ <이 논리를 한국 개신교에 적용한 분석>
까지 이어서 더 깊게 확장해 드리겠습니다.
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Chapter 1: Start
0:00the world is happy if the church remains inside of its doors but when the church begins to step outside just a bit and
0:077 secondshave a prophetic voice you'll see that the world will resist they'll say no you shouldn't do this as a Christian you should not talk about politics when will
0:1616 secondswe ever in the church have the courage to step outside of our doors and say prophetically in the Name of Christ stop
0:2525 seconds[Music]
0:3535 secondsHello friends and welcome to the ferris Abraham podcast where we explore Faith leadership and important matters in the Middle East while discussing topics that
Chapter 2: Introduction & Context
0:4343 secondselevate your perspective and deepen your faith today I'm thrilled to have my friend Dr Gary Burge join me here on the
0:5151 secondsspecial episode in this podcast Gary is a passionate advocate for the people in the Middle East for the church in the Middle East and he is a trusted expert
1:001 minuteor a trusted voice I should say on the theological issues surrounding Israel and Palestine many American and Western
1:081 minute, 8 secondschurches turned to him for Clarity on the Israeli Palestinian conflict and especially his book which is fascinating
1:161 minute, 16 secondsuh called whose land whose promise has profoundly shaped countless people who seek to understand both the biblical and
1:251 minute, 25 secondsthe modern dynamics of this complex region he has a PhD in the New Testament uh Gary also spent decades in teaching
1:341 minute, 34 secondsat respected and highly regarded institutions like wheen college and Calvin Seminary uh in today's
1:421 minute, 42 secondsconversation we will explore an important and timely question how can we as Christians better understand the
1:501 minute, 50 secondsgospel in its proper cultural context and apply it to the ongoing conflict in The Holy Land if this is your first time
1:581 minute, 58 secondsjoining me here while please take a moment to subscribe to my YouTube channel and follow the ferris Abraham podcast on your favorite
2:062 minutes, 6 secondsplatforms so you never miss an episode now let's Dive Right In and give a warm
2:132 minutes, 13 secondswelcome to my friend Dr Gary bur well Dr Gary Burge welcome to the show I'm so glad and excited to have you here with
2:212 minutes, 21 secondsus thank you it's a great to be here with you I'm looking forward to it so you studied at the American University in Beirut Le
Chapter 3: Gary's Time in the Middle East
2:302 minutes, 30 secondswhen the Civil War broke out in the mid 70s uh can you share with us a little bit on how this experience shaped your
2:392 minutes, 39 secondsworldview and perspective on the region sure so I was uh 20 years old 20 21 um
2:472 minutes, 47 secondsand um you know no one blows a whistle and says the war begins now you know there were Rumblings of the war in 72
2:562 minutes, 56 secondsand in 73 we all mark it around 73 to 75 but the American University closed um
3:033 minutes, 3 secondsthere was fighting on the street the uh mostly Palestinian refugee camps around Beirut had militarized themselves thanks
3:113 minutes, 11 secondsto the syrians and then the Lebanese Army um began suppressing all of that so
3:183 minutes, 18 secondsit was uh yeah a really eye opening I was culturally naive certainly I have to say that I had never been in a war zone
3:263 minutes, 26 secondsbefore of course um I was young I really didn't understand that the politics of this part of the world could be so
3:343 minutes, 34 secondscomplex um I lived on a floor the only American guy and mostly Palestinians on my floor these guys were really angry about
3:433 minutes, 43 secondsthat and we couldn't leave the dorm because they said it was too dangerous so we just all sat around eating tuna fish and bread so it was it was a moment
3:533 minutes, 53 secondswhere I I I recognized that I I am watching something that is very complicated
4:004 minutesand I'm watching a story here that has a backstory and that no political story actually is right in that's in front of
4:074 minutes, 7 secondsyou is a story that is simple like Ukraine and Russia you have to know something about those two people's
4:154 minutes, 15 secondshistory to understand why this is going on same with Israel and Palestine so I think I lost my innocence in bout and I
4:254 minutes, 25 secondsI really saw how complex it was I traveled to about eight Arab countries countes during that time um and Israel
4:324 minutes, 32 secondsincluded um and I I was um um yeah I think I began to be aware that drove me
4:404 minutes, 40 secondsinto doing political science and it drove me into doing uh in-depth research actually on Israel and Palestine um but
4:474 minutes, 47 secondsit was it was a real Awakening for me wow so in in your books I mean that
Chapter 4: Theology of the Land
4:544 minutes, 54 secondsshows how much uh you know work have you put in your in your ministry to kind of it it shaped everything about your
5:035 minutes, 3 secondswriting your your preaching your all around so a remarkable argument you make in your books and it's almost
5:125 minutes, 12 secondslike a theme uh about the Theology of the land and this is a hot topic for many people because many people that I meet as a Palestinian Christians they
5:215 minutes, 21 secondsdon't even know what to think and how to believe and how to really approach uh a geopolitical conflict yeah and and most
5:305 minutes, 30 secondsof the time they we oversimplify it uh to specific terms and everything but you make a very remarkable argument about
5:385 minutes, 38 secondsthe land and the holy land or what we know as Israel and Palestine can you give us some insight on your books and
5:465 minutes, 46 secondskind of give us like a book summary of what that means I think if someone wants to really dive into this uh the two
5:545 minutes, 54 secondsbooks that are would be helpful would be Walter briman's uh Old Testament theology called the land um and then I
6:026 minutes, 2 secondswrote a matching volume that goes with that um it's called Jesus and the land and it's a new testament Theology of the land so um I think that when we look at
6:126 minutes, 12 secondsthe conflicts in Israel and Palestine it's easy for us to say well this is all about simply stealing land and it's all about a struggle over land and that's in
6:216 minutes, 21 secondsthe end of it but it's not there's a backstory like I've said and it goes all the way back about 3,000 years um and if you look inside of gen is what you you
6:306 minutes, 30 secondssee as bugman says the land is at the center of Old Testament theology so God
6:376 minutes, 37 secondsmakes a covenant with Abraham and landed is Central to that Covenant he is going to have he's promised the land of Canaan
6:456 minutes, 45 secondsso um that is reinforced three times in the Book of Genesis that yes this promise of land is going to go Abraham and his
6:536 minutes, 53 secondsdescendants however the Old Testament also says very clearly this isn't as if
7:007 minutesthe land belongs to Israel because uh Leviticus 25 says clearly the land
7:077 minutes, 7 secondsbelongs to God and you are here as tenants you are renters in fact far in the ancient world nobody in the ancient
7:157 minutes, 15 secondsworld this is John Walton Old Testament Theologian wean College he he says no one in say 1000 BC ever would say to
7:247 minutes, 24 secondsthemselves we own our land right they would have said in a pagan way all of the Gods own our land and we are simply
7:317 minutes, 31 secondsrenters and therefore we must plate the gods so they will bless their land and that way we can benefit from that so
7:407 minutes, 40 secondseven Abraham himself when he buried you know his wife he had to purchase that property although God had promised him
7:487 minutes, 48 secondsthe land but he doesn't go into Hebron and he doesn't see the cave of MCA and say oh well God promised me this I'm
7:557 minutes, 55 secondsgoing to take it um David does not even do that but he wants to get land for building the Temple in Jerusalem no he
8:038 minutes, 3 secondsunderstands that this is something that must be handled justly so if the land belongs to God and it doesn't actually
8:108 minutes, 10 secondsbelong there's no title deed like we think of it today it's you can't use modern categories and project them back
8:178 minutes, 17 seconds3,000 years so well they say that they say you know on the other side of the of the debate this land is the
8:268 minutes, 26 secondsEternal uh you know property given to certain people and Jerusalem is the
8:338 minutes, 33 secondsEternal capital of the Jewish people right yeah yeah two things about that um first of all there is no place what actually says to them they own it as if
8:428 minutes, 42 secondsyou would own a piece of property there there isn't that idea they have the right of of of use but not actually this
8:498 minutes, 49 secondsnotion of ownership the other thing is is that as John Walton show actually also shows there this idea of Eternal
8:578 minutes, 57 secondsownership to Eternal use or something um the notion of Eternal um is really
9:039 minutes, 3 secondsforeign to um Hebrew thinking in this time that is a very Greek idea that something would just go on forever but
9:119 minutes, 11 secondsinstead the Hebrew mindset the Semitic mindset thinks instead that this is something which is fixed and permanent um in fact the Hebrew word that is used
9:199 minutes, 19 secondsfor Eternal there does not mean Eternal at all it means something which is a steadfast and strong commitment that's what it means and we have examples
9:289 minutes, 28 secondsinside of the Old Testament where God says well you can have I promise this forever and then he changes his mind so
9:369 minutes, 36 secondsthis idea that this is a land that is number one owned by is really it's in question and this notion of Eternal is
9:449 minutes, 44 secondssomething that really is in question as well Old Testament Scholars know this um people in the church just don't know this the writer of Hebrew uh in the book
9:549 minutes, 54 secondsof Hebrews chapter 11 when he talks about the heroes of the faith and yeah you know he mentions Abraham and you
10:0010 minutesknow he mentioned Jerusalem and he was you know he only pitched the tent he did not really build something that's going
10:0710 minutes, 7 secondsto last forever no the etal he was yeah he was looking for the for for for the New Jerusalem exactly right so if you
10:1610 minutes, 16 secondswant to talk about a location that's Eternal you have to talk about heaven and that's why Hebrew says Abraham never really saw he never saw the land that he
10:2510 minutes, 25 secondswas promised because that land is actually in heaven so so back to the idea that if
10:3110 minutes, 31 secondsGod owns the land that means um being in the land is tied to the promise which is a covenant that comes from God and
10:3910 minutes, 39 secondstherefore you cannot be in the land if you don't obey the Covenant and all of its righteousness right so if you violate the Covenant you lose the
10:4810 minutes, 48 secondsbenefit of land use and so the Book of Judges makes this really clear um the tribe of Dan loses its place in in the
10:5610 minutes, 56 secondspromised land Benjamin the very same but the Babylonian exile is your best example of this when Israel does not
11:0411 minutes, 4 secondslive by the Covenant then out they go so therefore what we have to say is that
11:1111 minutes, 11 secondsyou just there's no notion inside of the Old Testament that Israel owns the land and can say goodbye to Yahweh there is
11:1811 minutes, 18 secondsno notion of that at all it's his land and if you're living it you got has expectations of Covenant righteousness
11:2711 minutes, 27 secondsand in the Old Testament prophets that Covenant righteous means how you live along others who are there with you and um how you live out a
11:3611 minutes, 36 secondslife that is moral that's ethical so that lead that leads to multiple questions but number one does the land
Chapter 5: The Historical Significance of the Land
11:4411 minutes, 44 secondshave any spiritual significance uh today does Jerusalem
11:5211 minutes, 52 secondshave any spiritual significance or and does a third temple building a third Temple have any spirit ual significance
12:0012 minutesright yeah and when I take people to Israel Palestine um actually I I I when
12:0712 minutes, 7 secondsthey when they get to the Holy Land you can almost see that they feel like they're walking on holy soil or something they go to bat sahur and they
12:1412 minutes, 14 secondsfigure oh my goodness that's got to be God's house yes um so they go to Jerusalem and and they honestly you can
12:2212 minutes, 22 secondssee them collecting water from the Jordan River collecting sand from Jerusalem and they take it home and they
12:3012 minutes, 30 secondsthink it has some kind of spiritual power um I would never say any of those kinds of things um because the land is
12:3712 minutes, 37 secondsHoly because of what God has done in the land it isn't holy as if intrinsically it actually had that kind of Holiness
12:4412 minutes, 44 secondsthe only space where there is that that kind of that that Resident Holiness is there is in the temple inside of the Old
12:5112 minutes, 51 secondsTestament and so uh that's why there were rules about getting close to the temple there were rules about who could go into the temple
12:5912 minutes, 59 secondsbut having said all of that that is really doing Jewish or Old Testament theology um when it comes to the New
13:0613 minutes, 6 secondsTestament the New Testament as I like to say changes the spiritual geography of the world in other words everything that
13:1613 minutes, 16 secondswe have expected of the Holy Land is present in Christ now let's just go to the temple
13:2313 minutes, 23 secondsthat's the toughest nut to crack right there and so therefore if if anything is sacred in the Holy Land it's the city of Jerusalem and if it's a city of
13:3113 minutes, 31 secondsJerusalem inside of Jerusalem is the temple inside of the temple is the holy place inside of the Holy place it it ascends in
13:3913 minutes, 39 secondsHoliness when I look at the Life of Christ what I have in the Life of Christ is the locus of God's presence in the
13:4813 minutes, 48 secondsworld that's why in John 1:14 John can say you know and the word became flesh and dwelt that technical word is for the
13:5713 minutes, 57 secondsTabernacle right as Jesus moves through the land it's almost as if um God's
14:0414 minutes, 4 secondspresence is now in with him and he is the Locust of Holiness and you might say it this way um that place of Holiness
14:1314 minutes, 13 secondstherefore has moved from the temple and its precincts directly to Christ you see this played out
14:2114 minutes, 21 secondsdramatically in Acts chapter 2 on the day of Pentecost because what you have is you know inside of the temple there was fire and there was bread um
14:2914 minutes, 29 secondsbut fire actually then moves from the temple and these little flames of fire which they had in the temple now suddenly settles on the Community of
14:3814 minutes, 38 secondsChrist and the idea is if you are looking for that Holy space you are
14:4514 minutes, 45 secondsgoing to find it in Christ and in his body but you're not going to find it in geography so can we Echo what Paul is
14:5414 minutes, 54 secondswas saying that all the promises of God find their yes and amen Ines Jesus exactly right exactly right so did Paul
15:0215 minutes, 2 secondsget it right back then yeah so Paul is exactly what Paul's saying it's almost like all of the funnel the history of Israel is moving through a funnel and
15:1115 minutes, 11 secondsthe very center the very tip of that funnel is Christ and then it moves out again and its history incorporates the
15:1815 minutes, 18 secondschurch so so to to someone you know listening to this for the first time they might say hey these guys sounds like replacement theology what do you
Chapter 6: Replacement Theology
15:2615 minutes, 26 secondssay to that what is replacement theology yeah let's start there okay so yeah replacement theology um uh is is
15:3415 minutes, 34 secondssomething that was born probably 200 years after the New Testament was written and there was a strong tendency
15:4215 minutes, 42 secondsto say that the Christian church has replaced ancient Israel and it gave birth to anti-Semitism thinking the only
15:5115 minutes, 51 secondsrole of Jews in history is to be blamed for the death of Christ um and that actually continued all the way into Europe um the Middle
16:0016 minutesEast didn't absorb that really in the same way this is a very European issue um and of course it came to a head at
16:0716 minutes, 7 secondsthe Holocaust right so um other people have said well no not so quick we do
16:1516 minutes, 15 secondshave some kind of replacement happening inside of the New Testament every new testament Theologian um would say this
16:2216 minutes, 22 secondsvery thing in other words something has transpired in the Covenant of Christ that stands now in front of the Covenant
16:3116 minutes, 31 secondsof Abraham and of Moses and therefore if you want to be attached to God you must come through
16:3816 minutes, 38 secondsChrist okay so if there is some sort of replacement at work the real question is
16:4516 minutes, 45 secondswhat do you do with Jews who do not believe in Christ that's the question right and when we read Romans 9 through1 Paul is clear that there is it
16:5516 minutes, 55 secondsisn't as if they've been dismissed from history they are cousins in faith they are the custodians of our scriptures they are The Heirs of all of these
17:0217 minutes, 2 secondsthings that come from Abraham but Paul says um even though they are hostile to the gospel in Romans 11 he says but
17:1017 minutes, 10 secondsstill there is hope that they will be in gathered at the very end I think he's talking about the end of time he doesn't say this exactly but I think the
17:1817 minutes, 18 secondsexpectation is that um Tom Wright an Wright says well it's going to be the evangelism of the church that brings
17:2517 minutes, 25 secondsthem into the fold other people say no it's going to be the end of history when Christ returns then they are going to see who they mess somewhere in the
17:3317 minutes, 33 secondsfuture that's just speculative spe we don't know about this but Paul holds out hope that God is not finished
17:4117 minutes, 41 secondswith his Jewish people right so therefore our position should be inside of the church that we have respect for
17:4917 minutes, 49 secondswe acknowledge the value and importance of uh of Judaism um because they are people like all people who are loved by
17:5717 minutes, 57 secondsGod but they've also played a role in Biblical history which is certainly
18:0318 minutes, 3 secondsunique yes um a lively question that's inside of Judaism today and should be alive inside of the churches then what
18:1218 minutes, 12 secondsdoes it mean to be Jewish I mean if you're if you're a Christian I would say to you well if
18:2018 minutes, 20 secondsyou're a Christian you probably believe the following five things but there's no ethnic component to that Faris you are Palestinian I'm Swedish and German
18:2918 minutes, 29 secondsbut we don't care about those things because our Unity is as brothers in Christ but over in Judaism you have an
18:3618 minutes, 36 secondsethnic component and you also have a faith component and for 2,000 years Jews have
18:4318 minutes, 43 secondsdebated is it possible to be an atheist and yet still be ethnically Jewish and are you still Jewish right it's really
18:5218 minutes, 52 secondsfascinating and I think Paul actually weighs in on this and for him you have to share the faith of Abraham so
19:0019 minutestherefore this Jewish community that we see as our cousins these are people who are celebrating and living out the Covenant of Abraham and demonstrating
19:1019 minutes, 10 secondsthat kind of righteousness yeah the way I always approached this and I you know it's been it was a struggle for me as a
19:1919 minutes, 19 secondsPalestinian Christian to really fully understand the relationship and you know cuz I have I I love Jewish people I love
19:2619 minutes, 26 secondsMuslim people just like Jesus commanded all of us to do you know for God so loved the world it doesn't matter and
19:3419 minutes, 34 secondsGod's holy land is no longer just a mere strip of land I think the entire world is God's holy land and Paul makes that
19:4119 minutes, 41 secondsclear in Romans 4:13 when he talks about the faith that Abraham had that made him
19:4919 minutes, 49 secondsthe in you know inherit the entire world he wasn't talking about the smoke yeah so so that's God's holy land but I
19:5719 minutes, 57 secondsalways believed that felt it deep inside my spirit that uh Old Testament Believers and New Testament Believers
20:0620 minutes, 6 secondsare one people yes are one Covenant Community because you're beautifully right beautifully connected through the
20:1420 minutes, 14 secondscross yes and my old Pastor used to say uh Jewish people of the Old Testament
20:2120 minutes, 21 secondsthey were like ascending up the hill making sacrifices looking to the Messiah that
20:2820 minutes, 28 secondsis going to come and up on that Hill there's the cross yeah right they were looking for the Messiah to come and
20:3420 minutes, 34 secondsredeem them because sacrifices merely bring temporary forgiveness right but the Cross of Christ uh brings full
20:4320 minutes, 43 secondsRedemption we're brought into the family of God through the Covenant the New Covenant of his blood Y and the New Testament Believers it's it's that
20:5120 minutes, 51 secondspicture that he gave on the hill going down the hill looking back about what you know for Christ had done and then we
21:0121 minutes, 1 secondtake the the the bread we break the bread then we take the fruit of the vine remembering you know his broken body and
21:0821 minutes, 8 secondsthe shedding of the blood but it's always in God's eyes it's it's one plan
Chapter 7: Two-covenant Theology
21:1421 minutes, 14 secondsone Covenant one people and Peter even in his letter he's Jewish and he's addressing a Jewish you know audience
21:2321 minutes, 23 secondsand Gentile audience he's saying you're a holy nation you're a chosen one he uses old test the scriptors to give to
21:3021 minutes, 30 secondsthem yeah so so how do you really approach this because PE people usually tend to think of there's two
21:3821 minutes, 38 secondsplans there are two covenants uh the church now is in effect it's in Covenant with God but God is somehow you know he
21:4621 minutes, 46 secondshas a separate plan yeah for the Jewish people this that there's a formal name for that it's it's two covenant theology that somehow the covenants of Abraham
21:5421 minutes, 54 secondswith the Jews continues to run along parallel with the Covenant of Christ there is no place inside of the New Testament that has that concept at all
22:0322 minutes, 3 secondsin other words there's one con there is one Covenant it's the Covenant of Christ and that Covenant is so magnificent and so powerful that it is the only Gateway
22:1322 minutes, 13 secondsthrough which one must go in order to have a relationship with God you have to re we have to remember that Paul and all of the New Testament writers are Jews
22:2122 minutes, 21 secondsthey're Messianic Jews they understand this and um and that I think is what gets them into trouble inside of the Rome communities
22:2922 minutes, 29 secondsbecause they are saying Jesus is definitive in Jesus Covenant is definitive and not optional for all of
22:3722 minutes, 37 secondsus for all of the world because as you said from Romans 4:13 um The Promise is God now has moved this geography from
22:4522 minutes, 45 secondsthe holy land to all of the world so therefore if you live in you know Orlando or Ephesus you are in a land
22:5422 minutes, 54 secondswhich is precious to God and is as holy as Jerusalem though it doesn't carry the memories of what God has done in the
23:0223 minutes, 2 secondspast there yeah so it's I know I I find the very same two covenant theology that appears in the church regularly and it's
23:1123 minutes, 11 secondsit's really frustrating because actually faras what it does is it demotes Christ it demotes Christ how so because
23:2023 minutes, 20 secondsthen Christ is no longer a universal sacrifice a universal Lord who is who to
23:2723 minutes, 27 secondswhom obedience is required of all people everywhere so in other words it's possible to be someone in this world and
23:3423 minutes, 34 secondschoose not to have Christ and yet still be in favor with God so so do you think
23:4123 minutes, 41 secondspeople um conflate the two concept the concept of the modern state of Israel
23:4723 minutes, 47 secondsthat exists right now in the Middle East under international law but I've you know I've heard it from different pastors and the even theologians
23:5623 minutes, 56 secondsunfortunately uh they say it's it's a it's a you know it's a god project that
24:0324 minutes, 3 secondsestablished the modern state of Israel the secular modern V state of Israel uh
24:0924 minutes, 9 secondsdo people conflate the people of the Old Testament uh or the Jewish people as an
24:1624 minutes, 16 secondsethnic group with the modern state of Israel yeah um this is something that I come across in the church all of the
24:2424 minutes, 24 secondstime and I imagine most of my career has been debating this kind of thing um so let's begin there's a number of places
24:3324 minutes, 33 secondsyou can begin with this first of all we have to recognize that after the New Testament period and the destruction of
24:3924 minutes, 39 secondsJerusalem um Jews were not actually sent out as a group here's the fantasy the myth is this is that just like in the
24:4824 minutes, 48 secondsBabylonian exile the Romans took the nation of Israel sent them to Europe they remained intact and then they have
24:5524 minutes, 55 secondsnow come back in 1948 to create a state then that's not the case and that's it's completely wrong I mean the Rowans never
25:0225 minutes, 2 secondsdid those sorts of things instead what we know is that Jews were more Jews were living in the Roman Empire outside of
25:1025 minutes, 10 secondsthe Holy Land than were living in the Holy Land that's correct when Israel was destroyed in 870s the war of 70 what happens is that
25:2025 minutes, 20 secondsthese Jewish populations that were in Europe continued to stay there and continued to flourish and by the way the two largest communities were in the
25:2725 minutes, 27 secondsMiddle East Babylon was one Egypt was the other so they lived in these communities but the group that actually founded the state of Israel were from
25:3625 minutes, 36 secondsEastern Europe so the ashkanazi Jews are coming out of Europe and they decide because of all of the persecution that
25:4325 minutes, 43 secondswas for Jews throughout the 20th century it was horrible in the 19th century too yeah so Eastern European Jews actually
25:5225 minutes, 52 secondsdecided we have got a vision to bring this to to the the land of of Palestine
26:0026 minutesthe area of Palestine they were secular they wanted they called themselves the new Jew um they had no interest in
26:0826 minutes, 8 secondsbringing Faith or religion into the country um some of their earliest leaders like bener and you look at their
26:1526 minutes, 15 secondsDiaries and you can see they're atheists um and yet they realize that Jews are coming from all over the map and there
26:2226 minutes, 22 secondsis no glue that can hold them together because they all have different cultures so they want to revive Hebrew
26:3026 minutes, 30 secondsto glue everyone together and secondly literally Ben guran was having meetings in his living room studying the Bible
26:3826 minutes, 38 secondsespecially the Book of Joshua to appropriate the story of the Old Testament so that it will be the story
26:4526 minutes, 45 secondsof the nation did he believe this stuff no no he doesn't he says that but instead he wants to be a great
26:5326 minutes, 53 secondsstory so Israel modern Israel is a secular state and here's what I would ask my pastor
27:0127 minutes, 1 secondfriends if the Old Testament prophets that warned about the coming Babylonian exile if those prophets came to Tel Aviv
27:1027 minutes, 10 secondstoday and they saw how secular Tel Aviv is I mean what would they say they would say you are so far from the Covenant in
27:1927 minutes, 19 secondsother words if you want to claim the Privileges of land in the Covenant you have got to live by the requirements of
27:2627 minutes, 26 secondsthe Covenant it's that simple inside of the Old Testament and one of it is honoring and taking care of the strangers of the land oh that's huge
27:3527 minutes, 35 secondsyeah they strangers foreigners the people who are living in the land not passing through it's people who are non-israelites non-jews who are living
27:4427 minutes, 44 secondsin the land they need to be respected there's in in that book whose land who promise I have a chapter that shows all
27:5027 minutes, 50 secondsof the rules that Israel must abide by for those people who are living in the land alongside of them
27:5927 minutes, 59 secondsyeah so Israel it's a secular State um it represents a portion of Judaism that comes out of Europe and um because it's
28:0828 minutes, 8 secondssecular there are many Jews around the world and in Israel that don't believe this state should be called Israel
28:1528 minutes, 15 secondsthat's a state um it should be established when the Messiah comes so this lack of righteousness this lack of
28:2328 minutes, 23 secondsinterested the over three quarters of Israel they are not religious they call themselves that's how they call it it
28:3028 minutes, 30 secondsmeans they're not practicing um therefore the Sabbath is kind of a nice holiday um Passover you know we have some memories there but they treat
28:3928 minutes, 39 secondsPassover like some people here treat Christmas right so it's it's a secular s so to draw a direct line say from
28:4628 minutes, 46 secondsAbraham to Benjamin Netanyahu is such a stretch it's a stretch politically it's
28:5328 minutes, 53 secondsa stretch historically but theologically there's simply isn't a fit except for an
29:0129 minutes, 1 secondethnic line it's there's an ethnic line going back and of course we have to respect that so criticizing uh the modern state of
Chapter 8: Anti-semitism vs Call for Justice
29:1029 minutes, 10 secondsIsrael and its policies uh many of you know even some of my friends have called me anti-semitic for even calling for a
29:1929 minutes, 19 secondsceasefire in Gaza sure you know as as you know I have relatives in Gaza I was born and raised in Bethlehem
29:2729 minutes, 27 secondsbut my wife wife was born and raised in in Gaza and she still have Christian families who date their Christianity
29:3529 minutes, 35 secondsback to the first century uh they've always been Christians in the land and um when we voice our our concerns and
29:4429 minutes, 44 secondsour you know legitimate anger about how Israel Israel is conducting itself and
29:5129 minutes, 51 secondshow the response after October 7 has been you know brutal um and
29:5829 minutes, 58 secondsand people have been just you know uh been dying on the streets thousands of them thousands of Orphans all the
30:0630 minutes, 6 secondsbuildings 85% of the buildings are rubbled on the ground um isra you know Gaza is inhabitable place right now
30:1530 minutes, 15 secondsthere is infrastructure is gone all the schools the universities are gone and when when we say you know this is wrong
30:2430 minutes, 24 secondsthis is has to stop uh we're being called anti semetic is that a legitimate argument no that's not a legitimate argument Israel has worked very
30:3230 minutes, 32 secondscarefully and Israel's lobbyists in Washington have walked worked very very carefully to say that since
30:4030 minutes, 40 secondsanti-Semitism is the forbidden word you do not want that attached to your career or your life at all that criticism of
30:4830 minutes, 48 secondsIsrael's domestic policies is anti-Semitic anti-semitic means um a dislike for Jewish someone who's Jewish
30:5530 minutes, 55 secondswho you dislike them because their race it's it's a racism that's really what it is but this criticism of Israel's
31:0331 minutes, 3 secondsbehavior in Gaza is happening all over the world because it is not about race it's really about one secular country
31:1231 minutes, 12 secondswith a very large army um displacing and killing a resident population that doesn't want there um it's happening on
31:2131 minutes, 21 secondsthe West Bank it's happening in Gaza and not only is this kind of behavior this terribly violent
31:2931 minutes, 29 secondsbehavior um reprehensible in in every respect Christians have been cheerleading this especially in the United
31:3731 minutes, 37 secondsStates so no we're not we're not anti-semitic whatsoever um if somebody were to say you have a lot you have a
31:4531 minutes, 45 secondslot of Jewish friends don't you oh in Israel here and in Israel both um they're my conversation Partners about
31:5231 minutes, 52 secondsthis I I tend to have a hard time frankly with my Jewish friends who are
31:5931 minutes, 59 secondswanting to defend the bombing of Gaza I I I find that it's it's almost wounding morally for me to entertain that kind of
32:0832 minutes, 8 secondsconversation and so I have many Jewish friends who find who are I Gass I think all of our listeners have got to understand this it isn't as if this is a
32:1732 minutes, 17 secondsJewish activity in Gaza this is an Israeli activity in Gaza and there are countless Jews around the world and in
32:2532 minutes, 25 secondsIsrael who find this um they are a Gass they're horrified by what they're seeing happening here but an ultraconservative
32:3432 minutes, 34 secondsgovernment um fed by settlers from the West Bank they are the ones who are in control of the government and as we all
32:4232 minutes, 42 secondsknow governments can suddenly find themselves in the hands of people who
32:4832 minutes, 48 secondshave um frightening Tendencies many people that I have interacted with they tend to oversimplify the conflict and
Chapter 9: Trivializing the Struggle
32:5732 minutes, 57 secondsthey say it's a spiritual conflict it's all when Jesus comes back this is all going to be so no there's no peace in the Middle East until Jesus comes back
33:0533 minutes, 5 secondshow how do you really respond to someone who have this kind of U theology in their mind who you know say who view the
33:1433 minutes, 14 secondsconflict in the Middle East and in the region as a spiritual conflict rather than human right abuses deeply rooted in
33:2333 minutes, 23 secondsterritorial disputes and purely political uh dispute uh you know they would they would say something like this
33:3033 minutes, 30 secondsis a spiritual well this is a conflict between god of the Bible against his enemy right uh H how do we help people
33:3733 minutes, 37 secondsreally navigate through this yeah the complexity of this issue you know I think I think that uh people who succumb
33:4633 minutes, 46 secondsto that kind of polarized view of the conflict have not been reading history um there is a a marvelous study
33:5433 minutes, 54 secondsI'm very interested in the period from World War I all the way up into until 1939 when the second war started and in both of those
34:0234 minutes, 2 secondsconflicts uh people said the very same thing on both sides they said this is a in World War I God is on our side and
34:1034 minutes, 10 secondsthe other side is the devil and the other side very said the very same thing in other words when it comes to a conflict of sufficient severity um
34:1934 minutes, 19 secondspeople will exploit your spiritual sensitivities they will exploit you every single time especially politicians
34:2734 minutes, 27 secondsoh my gosh yes politicians and religious leaders will do that there are religious leaders in Islam who will do that with their Muslim audiences there are
34:3534 minutes, 35 secondsChristian leaders on our side and Jewish leaders who will do this with their congregations no what you have at work here is a land struggle this is not
34:4434 minutes, 44 secondsabout the West versus the East this is not about religion um this is about a resident population that has been there
34:5234 minutes, 52 secondsfor a very long time and an incoming European population that wants to expel the native population from the land it
35:0035 minutesthis whole thing is colonial if you really want to hear the story of what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank simply look at Australia
35:0835 minutes, 8 secondsAustralian historians are saying this not me look at South Africa the very same thing with the black South Africans
35:1535 minutes, 15 secondsthis is a pattern and this is probably the last Colonial exercise the world will see I would imagine um unless the
35:2435 minutes, 24 secondsUnited States takes Greenland next week so um this is this is uh this is this is
35:3135 minutes, 31 secondsa political move that Israel is making to steal the land for their own people and to expel all of the others so it
35:3835 minutes, 38 secondsisn't a spiritual matter at all in fact um do you know many people don't know this but during 1940s and the 1950s um
35:4835 minutes, 48 secondslarge populations of Jews who came from Arab countries over 500,000 of them moved from Baghdad and Cairo and
35:5735 minutes, 57 secondsespecially Morocco um they came to Israel um they were really pushed in many ways there was a large Israel
36:0636 minutes, 6 secondsneeded to increase its Jewish population and so so you mean they weren't facing any
36:1236 minutes, 12 secondspersecution um you can read biographies of autobiographies of they call themselves Arab Jews living like living
36:2136 minutes, 21 secondsin Iraq they were Iraqi Jews and they spoke Arabic they wore the same clothes as the Arabs did they ate the same Foods
36:3036 minutes, 30 secondsthey'd been living together peacefully for long forever and so it was just like there were Kurds there were Christians
36:3736 minutes, 37 secondsum there were Jews there were Arabs there were Shiites and sunnis I mean they just live together as this large
36:4636 minutes, 46 secondsamalgam and um the idea that the Arabs have always hated the Jews or there's always been a struggle between the Arabs
36:5436 minutes, 54 secondsis just simply wrong but this is a part of the propaganda that comes out of Israel and I think we have to reject it
37:0237 minutes, 2 secondswe have to prepare ourselves and know something about what life was like actually for those Jews living in those
37:0937 minutes, 9 secondsplaces well you know we can never say this is a definitive I mean there you would find some isolated instances
37:1737 minutes, 17 secondsincidences there I'm sure there were there is hatred for the Jews because they're Jews in Arab countries and in
37:2437 minutes, 24 secondsMuslim context so we can't we can't we can't pretend that it's not there but I think it's
37:3037 minutes, 30 secondsover uh exaggerated in a way because I believe anti-Semitism is the crime of the West anti-Semitism is not the crime
37:4037 minutes, 40 secondsof the Arabs and the Muslims the Arab world that from the West that's right no it was white it was white Europeans that
37:4937 minutes, 49 secondsyou know killed six million Jews in World War II that's right it wasn't the Arabs and the Muslims no but let me just
37:5837 minutes, 58 secondsbe clear about one thing when I'm talking about um the healthy communities say in Baghdad that went all the way back in time I'm talking about the 1930s
38:0638 minutes, 6 secondsI'm talking about 1940 20 1900 that's what these people are talking about their childhoods they were wonderful so
38:1338 minutes, 13 secondsthey were thriving thriving communities all across the community in Babylon was wealthy it was great even in even in Palestine I mean Palestinian Jews um you
38:2338 minutes, 23 secondsknow they lived among Christian communities Muslim communities and uh so what you have is really the birth of
38:3138 minutes, 31 secondsantagonism toward Israel inside of the Arab countries probably about 1950
38:3838 minutes, 38 secondsespecially after Israel expels 750,000 Palestinians out of the country after
38:4538 minutes, 45 seconds1948 um then what you have is a reaction that comes from Egypt and Syria Iraq
38:5238 minutes, 52 secondsJordan that's where that comes from and today buered and it is so AR countries you have a lot of it I have a friend uh
39:0139 minutes, 1 secondwho serves in Bethlehem y but his grandfather was forced out of Jaffa in
39:0939 minutes, 9 seconds1947 he became a refugee in Gaza yep and then he became a refugee from Gaza to
39:1839 minutes, 18 secondsBethlehem now and he's serving in Bethlehem so I asked him I asked him if you didn't really have the hope of
39:2639 minutes, 26 secondsChrist if you wouldn't really following Jesus Y what would your life look like right now yeah and he looked at me and
39:3339 minutes, 33 secondshe said I would be full of anger I would be full over you know I would want to take revenge I would join up you know an
39:4139 minutes, 41 secondsarmed resistance whatever you know I don't want to give justification to any you know I'm not I'm a Christian so I believe in a
39:4939 minutes, 49 secondsnonviolence right uh movement and approach to conflicts and uh but but but
39:5639 minutes, 56 secondsthere is there is really a human catastrophe humanitarian catastrophe that the Palestinian people
40:0440 minutes, 4 secondshave been subjected to yeah and it takes enormous courage as a Christian Arab or Christian Palestinian I should say to
40:1240 minutes, 12 secondsabsorb this kind of pain and not be angry as you know faries I'm I'm pretty well connected to many pastors who are
40:1840 minutes, 18 secondsin Bethlehem and beor um and they say to me you know one of the principal
40:2540 minutes, 25 secondsfeatures of their Ministry is how you care for people young people who are say
40:3140 minutes, 31 seconds15 16 17 18 19 up to maybe 30 they're not married they're single they feel
40:3740 minutes, 37 secondshopeless and um addressing anger and revenge um as a feature of discipleship
40:4740 minutes, 47 secondsis a really big thing so how is it that I love my neighbor how is it that I turn the other cheek um and when you're 18
40:5440 minutes, 54 secondsyears old you really want to throw that rock you really want to get into conflict and so we don't think about
41:0241 minutes, 2 secondsthat living in the United States we have know for us a crisis is the heat doesn't come on at church um but for them it is
41:1241 minutes, 12 secondswe don't want our young people to to to sacrifice Harbor any ill feelings or
41:1941 minutes, 19 secondssacrif on the altar of uh resistance and violence yeah so let me ask you this from you know your experience and your
Chapter 10: Supporting a Just Solution
41:2741 minutes, 27 secondsperspective is there any viable solution to the Israel Palestinian conflict
41:3441 minutes, 34 secondsum that we Christians can really advocate for uh you know while remaining
41:4141 minutes, 41 secondsfaithful to Biblical teaching yeah you know the Leaning Advocates or
41:4741 minutes, 47 secondsthe the really high tier historians right now say there is none and that's really depressing to me um the idea that
41:5741 minutes, 57 secondsthat um there are only four possibilities for this conflict um and this is pretty well
42:0442 minutes, 4 secondsknown among historians uh the first is uh is to have a two states one beside the other um
42:1342 minutes, 13 secondsthat's the American policy for this country and have a Palestinian State on the East and on the west Israel that's gone that's finished there are too many Israeli settlers that's never going to
42:2242 minutes, 22 secondshappen that that that ship sailed a long time ago is to have a one-state solution in which
42:2942 minutes, 29 secondsthere is one vote one person and this is a shared government and that means both sides have to give up this fantastic
42:3742 minutes, 37 secondsdream that they are going to possess all of the country and expel the other um no Palestinians and Israelis are either
42:4542 minutes, 45 secondshave to live together or they're going to die together that's just that simple so the one state solution is voted down
42:5242 minutes, 52 secondsall the time by the um by the Israeli population when they out what it would actually look at right um the other is
43:0143 minutes, 1 secondto have all an entirely Israel or Jewish community in which they expel the Palestinians and I don't think that kind
43:0843 minutes, 8 secondsof I don't think that is actually going to work but I think in Gaza that is the deeper game plan we want to get rid of
43:1643 minutes, 16 secondstwo million people so we can change our demographics um from my own sense of it um I think that a one-state solution and
43:2543 minutes, 25 secondsI think it's where where um sound minds are able to say to the violent on the right and the violent
43:3243 minutes, 32 secondson the left the violent in Palestine the violent in Israel um you have to stop this yeah so at least what we can say is
43:4243 minutes, 42 secondsthat this level of violence was never even seen in Afghanistan was never seen in Iraq was by the way not even seen in
43:4843 minutes, 48 secondsWorld War II like this this is crazy the tonnage of bonds dropped in Gaza is off the charts but I know that a lot of your
43:5643 minutes, 56 secondsaudience FIS is American and I think we have to be very very clear about one thing is that the Israeli Arsenal that
44:0444 minutes, 4 secondsis doing all of this bombing in Beirut Gaza it doesn't matter now they're soon I predict you'll see bombing like this in the West Bank um these are American
44:1344 minutes, 13 secondsbonds we are paying for this if you pay taxes you had paid for this um let me just give you one example that is really
44:2144 minutes, 21 secondssome of our leaders are even signing those bombs yeah I've heard stories like that but I I don't
44:2744 minutes, 27 secondsyeah it's hard to know yeah so um in the United States Arsenal there
44:3444 minutes, 34 secondsare four um sort of Weights of bombs you know and they do a lot of damage 250 PB
44:4144 minutes, 41 seconds500 1,000 2,000 PB bomb the 2,000 pound pound bomb in our Arsenal is so huge
44:4744 minutes, 47 secondsit's just so huge um we only use it in American war Doctrine for bunkers where deep in say a hillside like in
44:5544 minutes, 55 secondsAfghanistan um or on a bridge uh that kind of infrastructure we never we forbid it to drop a 2,000 pounder in an
45:0545 minutes, 5 secondsurban center because the amount of damage it does yeah now America in the last 12 months has sent
45:1445 minutes, 14 seconds10,000 2,000lb bombs to Israel and they are the weapon of choice in Gaza that is
45:2145 minutes, 21 secondswhy you have this Amazing Rubble they're just leveling buildings um entire blocks are decimated entire
45:3145 minutes, 31 secondsblocks yeah if you drop a 2,000 PB Bond on a a cluster of say four six-story buildings you'll knock
45:3845 minutes, 38 secondsthem all down and the thing is they're bragging about it on Tik Tok I mean they're filming themselves doing it yes exactly so you have to go on YouTube you
45:4645 minutes, 46 secondscan go on YouTube and actually see photos videos of what it looks like when a 2,000 pounder hits those belong to us
45:5445 minutes, 54 secondsthose belong to us and I think that as Americans as Christians I think I have a
46:0046 minutesduty to protest to say not in my name um this is the American
46:0746 minutes, 7 secondsIsraeli bombing of of of Gaza and it'll take courage for us I'm happy to do that
46:1446 minutes, 14 secondsI mean I I I've done things and there even Jewish Jewish organizations are voicing their concerns like Jewish
46:2146 minutes, 21 secondspeople Jewish voices yeah Jewish voice for peace there's an organization and if I had an extra $10 I'd send it to them
46:3046 minutes, 30 secondsjvp they are courageous American Jews who know how to speak to Israel in a way that you and I do
46:3746 minutes, 37 secondsnot so um there are even conversations now happening and I think this is really what's coming um in which we'll see
46:4546 minutes, 45 secondsIsraelis move into Northern Gaza and they're talking openly about how they can put settlements in there bulldo the rubble and rebuil Gaza Gaza has value
46:5446 minutes, 54 secondsbecause Gaza has water that's why in the Old Testament Gaza was always a fortified City it's got water
47:0147 minutes, 1 secondyeah so in the desert that's an asset well um I'm going shift gears a little bit here as you know a group of um
Chapter 11: Meaning Engagement by the American Church
47:0947 minutes, 9 secondsMiddle Eastern Evangelical pastors including myself uh about 21 of us uh came together and
47:1647 minutes, 16 secondswe issued a statement last August that invite the global Church to get involved not to stay Silent not to you know CU
47:2447 minutes, 24 secondswe're called to be peacemakers that's what told his disciples to do we have to uh show compassion and show but sometimes
47:3247 minutes, 32 secondsyou know going back to my first question uh if we don't understand the cultural reflexes of Jesus we're not going to be
47:4147 minutes, 41 secondsable to live out those principles and apply them in today's world so we came together as as pastors
47:4947 minutes, 49 secondsand leaders from the Middle East and we wrote a letter an invitation to get involved in what God is doing because God is doing incredible work work I mean
47:5847 minutes, 58 secondsuh you know outside away from the the the breaking news the bombing the killing God is actually moving through
48:0648 minutes, 6 secondshis church a historic church that has been there for 2,000 years yeah so uh and you can find this historic document
48:1448 minutes, 14 secondson the website together me together middle east.org U now the question is how can
48:2248 minutes, 22 secondsthe American Church engage meaningfully right uh from your experience in advancing the gospel not only in in in
48:3148 minutes, 31 secondsIsrael and Palestine because we want to do that but throughout the Middle East uh there is a role that the American Church pastors and Christians can really
48:4148 minutes, 41 secondsuh do aside from advocacy which you mentioned we should you know call our Senators and representatives and tell
48:4848 minutes, 48 secondsthem he we cannot arm those bombs and those killings and not in our name we we can never agree to that but practically
48:5748 minutes, 57 secondsspeaking Yeah uh what can the American Church do well first of all FIS let me just go to your document I think that
49:0449 minutes, 4 secondseveryone who's listening I hope you know where that document is I hope you read it carefully um it's a fantastic document it's timely is theologically
49:1349 minutes, 13 secondssound um but it walks a very fine line let me put it to you this way um the world is happy when the church says
49:2249 minutes, 22 secondsreads the Beatitudes out loud but when Jesus says blessed are the peacemakers if you just keep that inside of the
49:2949 minutes, 29 secondschurch you really have not brought the gospel as Salt and Light into the world you haven't so if I step into the world
49:3549 minutes, 35 secondsand I say look the kingdom of God is interested in peacemaking and here is where I see an example where there is
49:4449 minutes, 44 secondsviolence and therefore in the Name of Christ cease and desist now once it's a very fine line the world is happy if the
49:5349 minutes, 53 secondschurch remains inside of its doors but when the church begins to step outside just a bit and have a prophetic
50:0250 minutes, 2 secondsvoice you'll see that the world will resist they'll say no you shouldn't do this as a Christian you should not talk about politics you should stay away from
50:1050 minutes, 10 secondsall of this actually politics is just simply the public Arena of how power is brokered among people and how money
50:1850 minutes, 18 secondsmoves that's politics so we inside of the church have got to have the courage when will we ever in the church have the
50:2550 minutes, 25 secondscourage to step outside out of our doors and say prophetically in the Name of Christ stop I I I think if the church can never
50:3450 minutes, 34 secondsdo that as by the way the church did not do in the 1930s as Hitler and the Nazis came to power the Lutheran Church was
50:4350 minutes, 43 secondssilent in all of this thing because they had been co-opted by the government so I wonder sometimes Faris are we co-opted
50:5250 minutes, 52 secondsby American culture that wants to separate Church church and state have we been co-opted have we been bought off
51:0151 minutes, 1 secondand someone in Washington says you look we will guarantee you all kinds of benefits but stay out of our business no I think we have to be in the business of
51:0951 minutes, 9 secondspublic discourse that's what the prophets did I mean even Jesus does that in his own speaking about you know the way in which the leaders in the temple
51:1851 minutes, 18 secondswere at work I mean so we we need to reclaim our voice and and and frankly
51:2651 minutes, 26 secondsstop being shy about this um yeah declare the ways of the Lord and build you declare the kingdom principles of
51:3451 minutes, 34 secondsjustice and love and and peace one of the one of the issues is and I've see this in my students for 35 years and
51:4151 minutes, 41 secondsthat is the Christian faith is not about my salvation and making sure I go to heaven that's a part of the story I I'm
51:4851 minutes, 48 secondsnot denying that that's not but it's also about discipleship so that I am walking I am representing the life of
51:5651 minutes, 56 secondsJesus inside of the world and so just for a moment a thought experiment if
52:0152 minutes, 1 secondJesus read the the headlines about Gaza and he took a plane over and he walked
52:0952 minutes, 9 secondstoward Gaza and he witnessed all of this what do you think he would say would he say let's just have a prayer circle would he say no we're he'd probably walk
52:1752 minutes, 17 secondsstraight into Jerusalem or he'd walk into Ted he'd do it in Jerusalem and he would say in the name of the Lord you know um this is not what God's people
52:2652 minutes, 26 secondspeople too right and it would lead to his arrest it would lead to his crucifixion I mean he did it multiple
52:3552 minutes, 35 secondstimes when he was teaching the disciples how to handle these situations when he walked into Samaria for example right
52:4252 minutes, 42 secondsexact the way he handled the Samaritans where which you know they were considered the fierce enemies of the Jews that's right and you know but that's you know that just for another
52:5152 minutes, 51 secondsepisode I think we need to talk about the Samaritan good because that brings me back to the first question I as ask you is really understanding the cultural
Chapter 12: Jesus' Cultural Context
52:5952 minutes, 59 secondscontext Jesus lived in yes help helps us so much yeah in not only understanding
53:0653 minutes, 6 secondshis message and understanding the full extent of the Gospel but it will equip us and impower us to live out those
53:1453 minutes, 14 secondsprinciples and share them and preach them and Proclaim them throughout the Earth so the thing is I wish people would realize that the world of Jesus
53:2453 minutes, 24 secondslet's just imagine he's living in Nazareth he's 27 years old the world of Jesus he's under military occupation a violent military occupation
53:3353 minutes, 33 secondshe probably sees Roman soldiers at least once a week um uh any political speech
53:3953 minutes, 39 secondsis suppressed they are poor they are forced to pay taxes which they don't have the money it's really really a
53:4653 minutes, 46 secondstough situation um and therefore and and religious conservatives are looking for power in order for perhaps they can push
53:5553 minutes, 55 secondsagainst the Romans the whole environment is volatile it is not a safe environment
54:0254 minutes, 2 secondsJesus is homeless he moves from place to place he tells his disciples they have to be homeless as well became a refugee
54:1054 minutes, 10 secondsyeah he becomes a refugee as a child who's a refugee in Egypt yeah um I just did a sermon last week on on the arrival
54:1854 minutes, 18 secondsof the wise men the the Magi in be and um and and I thought to myself Matthew 2
54:2654 minutes, 26 seconds1 12 um the Magi come from the east No Doubt Persia I think and they come to Jerusalem and they are Consulting with
54:3454 minutes, 34 secondsthe political leader of the day in the palace is Herod Herod of course says oh man I love this Messiah idea when you get to Bethlehem and you find him let me
54:4354 minutes, 43 secondsknow so I can go down there and call me yeah call me yeah call me right away and he's lying he's lying right and so
54:5254 minutes, 52 secondstherefore they go down they find Jesus they give him gifts by the way when they were carrying those gift gifts they are sort of national endowments these are gifts that you always give to the
55:0055 minutesroyalty when you arrive Harry gets no gifts the gifts the national gifts are given as Faris knows in in Arab culture
55:0955 minutes, 9 secondsit's the same way you show up your house you got to show up with gifts absolutely so anyway they don't go back to Herod they take off now I think the whole
55:1755 minutes, 17 secondsHerod story and the Magi story is a warning to us God is at work in the world and he's doing fabulous things in Bethlehem in
55:2555 minutes, 25 secondsthis case the powers in The Palace will never like it in fact they will come against it so if we think that we have
55:3355 minutes, 33 secondsallies in political places um we are naive we are so naive but when the
55:4055 minutes, 40 secondskingdom of God begins to express itself into Political spaces the herods of this
55:4755 minutes, 47 secondsworld will push back and they'll do so violently just as he did in Matthew 2 yes but that doesn't mean that
55:5455 minutes, 54 secondsChristians shouldn't get involved in you know running for office or oh no of course not they should you know serve in the Army I was the chaplain in the
56:0356 minutes, 3 secondsmilitary no it is great if you get into Congress fantastic because if you're in government then you can have that
56:1156 minutes, 11 secondsprophetic voice but we should not weaponize our pulpits to promote a Biblical I mean a political agenda at
56:1956 minutes, 19 secondsthe expense of biblical uh prophecy or the name of self-defense or no the gospel is the gospel and that's what
56:2856 minutes, 28 secondsbelongs in the Pulpit um The Gospel is the gospel and we have to make sure that we understand the difference between those to that if I'm simply promoting a
56:3656 minutes, 36 secondspolitical agenda from the pulpit then the church has lost its Mission it's lost its way essentially but yeah but if somebody actually becomes a military
56:4556 minutes, 45 secondschaplain I was in the Navy once I've never told you that Ferris um but if you're in Congress or here's the catch though you are
56:5356 minutes, 53 secondsliving close to the halls of power yes and that power wants to reach out
57:0157 minutes, 1 secondand possess your heart yes so when you're in Congress the question is will you retain your Christian identity and
57:0857 minutes, 8 secondsyour Christlike voice that's the question so if you're going to go into government and you're going to be a military officer and wear all of the
57:1757 minutes, 17 secondsnice fancy things on Your Collar you've got to make sure that you understand that your own faith this is a tricky
57:2557 minutes, 25 secondsplace to be as a Christian and compromise will confront you every single
57:3257 minutes, 32 secondsday amen well fascinating fascinating conversation thank you so much uh Dr Gary Burge where can when can people
Chapter 13: Parting Thoughts
57:3957 minutes, 39 secondsfind you and follow your work yeah um I have a website Gary b.org and uh anything that I'm writing and speaking
57:4757 minutes, 47 secondsthat kind of stuff goes right up there so easy to find me Gary b.org any of interesting projects that you're working on right now yeah I'm just um
57:5657 minutes, 56 secondsuh six months ago finished a book on Galatians and Ephesians and right now I'm work writing on Colossians so um
58:0558 minutes, 5 secondsColossians is on the Greek text of Paul so I I've had to really be on my toes in Greek but it's been delightful I usually
58:1258 minutes, 12 secondswork in the gospels that's my thing um the gospels and its culture but working in Paul now has just been a delight um
58:2158 minutes, 21 secondsreading Paul in his own language reading Paul in Greek I wish you could all do that but wow it's just you you sort of
58:2758 minutes, 27 secondsfeel it's like it's like rewiring a house with the power on reimmerse yourself in and back in the
58:3858 minutes, 38 seconds2,000 years ago when he did all his trips and missionary work and I know all over the world planting churches I'm
58:4558 minutes, 45 secondswriting on femon right now and you really you know what FIS like in English when you and I talk in English we can
58:5258 minutes, 52 secondsuse tone and we can use sarcasm like I can roll my eyes oh feris really we do
59:0059 minutesall these things all the time and if you read it in the Greek you can see that kind of edginess come out in Paul yeah
59:0759 minutes, 7 secondshe's willing to say some things which get diluted in English anyway it's a lot of fun everybody go study gree for the
59:1459 minutes, 14 secondsrest of your life amazing amazing Gary ver thank you so much it's so good to talk to you and uh all the best all
59:2359 minutes, 23 secondsright thanks FIS all right God bless God bless
59:3259 minutes, 32 seconds[Music]
