Kang-nam Oh · 다석 유영모 선생님,

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Kang-nam Oh

9 cshtgSJsaSpnuieaofnsornredy  · 

다석 유영모 선생님,

다석 류영모 선생님에 대한 인터뷰 시리즈로 저에게도 인터뷰를 하자고 해서 저는 다석 전문가는 아니지만 그냥 응하기로 했습니다.

첫째 질문은 제가 쓴 <진짜 종교는 무엇이 다른가>라는 책에서 세계적인 종교인 57명을 다루면서 유영모 함석헌 한국인 2명을 포함시켰는데, 그 이유가 무엇이냐 하는 것이었습니다.

저의 대답은 한국에도 물론 원효, 지눌, 퇴계, 율곡 등 위대한 심층 종교인들이 많지만, 현재 한국에 기복일변도로 흐르는 표층종교가 대세를 이루고 있는 형편이라 이런 대세와 대조를 이루는 종교 사상가로 잘 알려진 두 분을 소개하기로 한 것이라고 대답했습니다.

그러면서 전에도 제가 페북에서 언급한 적이 있습니다만, 다석학회 회장 정양모 신부님이 하신 말씀을 소개했습니다. 정 신부님은 “인도가 석가를, 중국이 공자를, 그리스가 소크라테스를, 이탈리아가 단테를, 영국이 셰익스피어를, 독일이 괴테를, 각각 그 나라의 걸출한 인물로 내세울 수 있다면, 한겨레가 그에 버금가는 인물로 내세울 수 있는 분은 다석 류영모”라고 했습니다.

다석 유영모의 직접적인 제자 박영호 선생님은 다석을 두고 “인류의 스승으로 손색이 없다”고 하였습니다.

제 개인적인 생각을 말씀드리면 위에 정양모 신부님이 열거한 세계적인 사상가들은 동양이면 동양사상에, 서양이면 서양사상에 국한될 수밖에 없었지만, 유영모 선생님은 동서양 사상과 한국 사상을 총합했다는 의미에서 그 위대성이 더욱 뛰어나다고 볼 수 있을 것 같습니다.

앞으로 유영모 선생님 전공인 분들이 유영모 사상에 대해서 자세히 말씀하시겠지만 제가 유영모 선생님의 사상 중 가장 흥미로운 것 한 두 가지만 말씀드리면,

1] 첫째 선생님이 요한복음3:16절을 풀이하신 것입니다.

“하나님이 세상을 이처럼 사랑하사 독생자를 주셨으니”하는 말을

일반 기독교에서는 하느님이 예수님을 이 세상에 보내셨다고 하는데,

유영모 선생님은 하느님이 그의 씨를 각 사람의 마음에 심으셨다는 뜻으로 풀이했다는 것입니다.

우리 속에 있는 신성, 불성, 인성이 하느님이 보낸 독생자인 셈입니다.

2] 그리고 십자가를 기독교에서는 예수님이 인간들을 위해 희생하신 것의 상징으로 여기는데,

유영모 선생님은 하늘과 땅과 사람이라는 삼재(三才)로 풀어

사람(l)이 땅(-)을 뚫고 하늘(•)을 향해 올라감의 상징이라 본 것입니다.

예수님의 재림에 대해서도 예수님이 하늘로 올라갔으면 우리도 하늘로 올라갈 생각을 해야지 왜 예수를 끌어내릴 생각을 하느냐고 했습니다.

돌아가시기 전 병상에서 함 선생님을 보시고 요한복음17장21절,

“아버지께서 내 안에, 내가 아버지 안에 있는 것같이 저희도 다 하나가 되어”하는 말씀을 인용하셨다는 것입니다.

신인(神人) 합일을 말씀하신 것입니다. 이상 열거한 것들은 세계 종교 심층에서 보편적으로 발견되는 가르침이라 할 수 있습니다.

유영모 선생님은 순수 우리말을 가지고 뜻풀이를 많이 했습니다. 다 알려진 것처럼 ‘기쁨’은 ‘기가 뿜어져 나옴’이고 ‘얼굴’은 ‘얼이 숨은 골’이라 하는 식입니다. 그 외에도 ‘빈탕한데’ ‘가온찍기’ ‘오, 늘~’ 등입니다. 물론 국어학적이나 어원적으로는 맞는지 모르겠지만 연상법적으로 그런 말을 화두로 삼아 더 깊은 뜻을 찾아내는데 아주 유용한 것이라 할 수 있습니다.

인터뷰에서는 말하지 않았지만 여기서 우스개 소리 하나 하고 싶네요. 저도 옛날 독일어를 배울 때 ‘운명’을 뜻하는 단어 ‘Schicksal’을 ‘식칼’로 운명을 결정하다로 외우고, 그리스말을 배울 때 ‘머리’를 뜻하는 ‘kephale’를 ‘캡 아래’ ‘모자 아래’로 외우고, 산스크리트어를 배울 때 ‘있을 수 없는 상상의 것’을 뜻하는 ‘변계소집성(遍計所執性, parikalpita’를 ‘파리에는 갈비가 없다’ 식으로 외운 적이 있습니다.^^

"종교와 급진적 사상」 「일신교에서 유래」에서는있을 수없는 아사히 신문 서평에서 | 좋은 책 好日

"종교와 급진적 사상」 「일신교에서 유래」에서는있을 수없는 아사히 신문 서평에서 | 좋은 책 好日



"종교와 급진적 사상」 「일신교에서 유래」에서는있을 수없는 아사히 신문 서평에서
비평가 : 가라타니 고진 / 아침 ⽇ 신문 ​​게재 : 2021 년 07 월 10 일

종교와 급진적 사상 현대의 신앙과 사회에 무슨 일이 일어나고 있는지 (공신 서)저자 : 후지와라 세이코출판사 : 중앙 공론 신사장르 : 신서 · 選書 소책자


ISBN : 9784121026422
발매 ⽇ : 2021/05/20
크기 : 18cm / 242p

이슬람, 기독교, 불교, 유대교, 힌두교, 신도 등 과격으로 한 종교 사상을 취해 알기 쉽게 해설. 말콤 X 존 브라운들의 사상을 분석하고 통 바닥하는 ...
"종교와 급진적 사상"[저] 후지와라 세이코

　종교적인 극단 사상이라는 것이 많이 (많이)있다. 반면에 그들을 본래의 종교에서 구별 다른 문맥에두고 보려는 견해가있다. 예를 들어, 일본에서는 1990 년경에 발생한 옴 진리교 사건을 종교로 취급 논의는 적었다. 한편, IS (이슬람 국가)와 미국 복음주의 배타주의 등에 관해서는 종교 문제로 보는 것이 보통이었다. 그것은 과격 성을 일신론의 특성으로 보는 경향이 강하기 때문이다.
　저자는 더 깊이 파고든 이해를 추구하는 20 세기에 있었던 주요 종교적 극단 사상을 되돌아 본다. 먼저 (또는)없이 이슬람 과격 사상은 사람을 알라에 예속시키고,이를 통해 사람이 사람에게 예속하는 것을斥(しりぞ) 차다 것이다. 예를 들어, 미국의 흑인 해방 운동의 말콤 X는 그때까지 영향력이 컸다 킹 목사의 비폭력주의를 부정하고 이슬람에 입교하여 무력 투쟁을 부추 (아오) 하였다. 한편, 이집트 사이이도 · 쿠투부는 이슬람 율법에 기초한 사회를 만드는 것을 목표로했다. 그것은 기존의 아랍 민족주의를 넘는 것이며, 오늘날의 이슬람 과격파의 근원이되었다고 전해진다. 그럼 기독교계에도 과격 사상이있다. 그것도 차별 폐지를 주장하는 것과 인종 차별적 인 것이있다. 70 년대부터 눈에 띄게 된 것은 백인 우월을 주장하는 '도미 신학'과 같은 운동이다.
　이상의 예는 일신교에 의한 것이며, 따라서 그 극단 성이 일신교에서 유래 생각하는 사람이 많다. 하지만 실수라고 저자는 말한다. 불교에도 "과격"이 있었다. 일본에서는 전쟁 니치렌주의가 지식인 젊은이에 큰 영향력을 가졌다. 예를 들어, 이노우에日召는 천황 아래 국민이 모두 평등 같은 사회를 만들어보세요 며 "한 사람 한 살 '을 주창 혈맹 단 사건 (32 년)을 일으켰다. 또한 티베트 불교 승려에 의한 분신 · 시위가 계속되고있다.
　이상은 "세계 종교"라고하는 종교에 발생한 무장이지만, '민족 종교'에서도 과격파가 적지 않다. 예를 들어, 일본의 신도에서 과격파가 태어 났고, 인도에서는 힌두교에서 과격한 민족주의가 이스라엘의 유대교에서 네오 나치 된 카하네주의가 태어났다.
　그런데 나는 앞으로도 종교 "과격"가있을 수있다해도, 이전과는 다른 것이 아닐까라고 생각한다. 내 인상은 20 세기 말에 사회주의가 몰락했다고 마찬가지로 종교도 전반적으로 몰락했다. '신자유주의'의 승리와 함께 하나의 종교가 지배적이 되었기 때문이다. 그것은 마르크스가 말하는 "물건 신"을 타카시 (아가) 멜 종교이다. 종교로부터 해방되었다고 생각하는 사람들은 이제 물건 하나님 교회의 지배 아래 신음하고있다. 종교적 극단 주의자도 예외는있을 수 없다.
　　　　◇
후지와라 · 토모코 1963 년생. 도쿄대 교수 (종교학). 시카고 대 대학원 박사 과정 수료 (Ph.D.). 저서로는 「현대 미국 종교지도」 「교과서 속의 종교 ''포스트 다문화 교육이 그리는 종교」등.


가라타니 고진 (에서 계곡 코우 진)철학자

　1941 년 효고현 출생. 저서로는 「소세키 시론」(군상 신인 문학상) 「마르크스 그 가능성의 중심 '(카메이 勝一郎 상) 「사카구치 안고과 나 카가미 켄지」(이토 정 문학상) 「일본 근대 문학의 기원」 「은유로서의 건축」 「녹음 티크」 「네이션과 미학」 「역사와 반복」 「세계사의 구조」등. 2005 년 4 월부터 서평 위원.





「宗教と過激思想」　「一神教に由来」ではありえない　朝日新聞書評から
評者： 柄谷行人 ／ 朝⽇新聞掲載：2021年07月10日

宗教と過激思想 現代の信仰と社会に何が起きているか （中公新書）著者：藤原 聖子出版社：中央公論新社ジャンル：新書・選書・ブックレット


ISBN: 9784121026422
発売⽇： 2021/05/20
サイズ: １８ｃｍ／２４２ｐ

イスラム、キリスト教、仏教、ユダヤ教、ヒンドゥー教、神道などから、過激とされた宗教思想をとりあげ、わかりやすく解説。マルコムＸ、ジョン・ブラウンらの思想を分析し、通底する…
「宗教と過激思想」　［著］藤原聖子

　宗教的な過激思想と呼ばれるものが沢山（たくさん）ある。一方に、それらを本来の宗教から区別し、別の文脈に置いてみようとする見方がある。たとえば、日本では、１９９０年ごろに生じたオウム真理教事件を宗教として扱う議論は少なかった。他方、ＩＳ（イスラム国）や、米国福音派の排外主義などに関しては、宗教の問題として見るのが普通であった。それは過激性を、一神教の特性として見る傾向が強いからだ。
　著者は、より踏み込んだ理解を求めて、２０世紀にあった、主要な宗教的過激思想をふりかえる。先（ま）ずイスラム系過激思想は、人をアラーに隷属させ、それによって人が人に隷従することを斥（しりぞ）けるものだ。たとえば、アメリカの黒人解放運動のマルコムＸは、それまで影響力が大きかったキング牧師の非暴力主義を否定して、イスラム教に入信し、武力闘争を煽（あお）った。一方、エジプトのサイイド・クトゥブは、イスラム法にもとづく社会を創ることを目指した。それは、旧来のアラブ・ナショナリズムを超えるものであり、今日のイスラム過激派の源となったといわれる。次に、キリスト教系にも過激派の思想がある。それも差別廃止を唱えるものと、人種差別的なものとがある。７０年代から目立つようになったのは、白人優越を唱える「ドミニオン神学」のような運動である。
　以上の例は一神教によるものであり、ゆえにその過激性が一神教に由来すると考える人が多い。しかし、それは間違いだ、と著者はいう。仏教にも「過激派」があった。日本では戦前、日蓮主義が知識人・若者に大きな影響力をもった。たとえば、井上日召は、天皇の下で国民が皆平等であるような社会を創り出そうとして、「一人一殺」を唱え、血盟団事件（３２年）を起こした。また、チベットでは、仏教僧による焼身・抗議活動が今も続いている。
　以上は「世界宗教」といわれる宗教に生じた過激派であるが、「民族宗教」でも過激派が少なくない。たとえば、日本の神道から過激派が生まれたし、インドでは、ヒンドゥー教から過激なナショナリズムが、イスラエルではユダヤ教の中で、ネオナチ化したカハネ主義が生まれた。
　ところで私は、今後も宗教的「過激派」がありうるとしても、以前のものとは異なるのではないか、と思う。私の印象では、２０世紀の末に社会主義が没落したと同様に、宗教も全般的に没落した。「新自由主義」の勝利とともに、一つの宗教が支配的となったからだ。それは、マルクスがいう「物神」を崇（あが）める宗教である。宗教から解放されたと思う人たちは、今、物神教の支配の下であえいでいる。宗教的過激派もその例外ではありえない。
　　　　◇
ふじわら・さとこ　１９６３年生まれ。東京大教授（宗教学）。シカゴ大大学院博士課程修了（Ｐｈ．Ｄ．）。著書に『現代アメリカ宗教地図』『教科書の中の宗教』『ポスト多文化主義教育が描く宗教』など。


柄谷行人（からたにこうじん）哲学者

　１９４１年兵庫県生まれ。著書に『漱石試論』（群像新人文学賞）『マルクスその可能性の中心』（亀井勝一郎賞）『坂口安吾と中上健次』（伊藤整文学賞）『日本近代文学の起源』『隠喩としての建築』『トランスクリティーク』『ネーションと美学』『歴史と反復』『世界史の構造』など。２００５年４月より書評委員。

"앞으로의 소년들에게"오오타 케이코 씨 인터뷰 남자야말로 올바른 성교육이 필요하다 | 좋은 책 好日

"앞으로의 소년들에게"오오타 케이코 씨 인터뷰 남자야말로 올바른 성교육이 필요하다 | 좋은 책 好日:



"앞으로의 소년들에게"오오타 케이코 씨 인터뷰 남자야말로 올바른 성교육이 필요하다문 : 玖保 樹鈴 그림 : 마시모유우 ( 「앞으로의 소년들에게 "보다)
　성 차별 · 성폭력을 사회로부터 없애기 위해 다양한 문제와 마주해온 변호사의 오오타 케이코 씨가 "앞으로 소년들에게"(大月書店)을 간행했다. 스커트 넘기기와 '똥침! "등 지금까지 「장난」 「농담」에서 やり過ごさ되어 온 성희롱의 문제가 무엇인지에 대해 정면으로 마주하고있다. "남자 다움"의 주박이나 괴롭힘을 웃음의 폭력성 등 앞으로의 시대에 소년이 요구되는 것에 대해 들었다.Share


이야기를 들었다 ⼈

오오타 케이코 (오오타 · 케이코)변호사

이혼 · 상속 등 가사 사건, 성희롱 · 성 피해, 각종 손해 배상 청구 등 민사 사건 등을 주로 다루고있다. 내일의 자유를 지키는 젊은 변호사 모임 (あすわか) 멤버로 "헌법 카페"를 각지에서 개최. 2014 년부터 '분노한 여자 회 "발기인. 2019 년에는 「DAYS JAPAN "広河 류이치 전 편집장의 성희롱 · 파와하라 사건에 관한 검증위원회의 위원을 지냈다.
여자 아이라면 꾸짖는데, 남자는 "어쩔 수 없다"로 끝나는

- 제목을 '소년들에게 "한 것은 자신의 아이가 소년이었던 것도 영향을주고 있습니까?

　그것이 크네요. 아이들의 수는 태어날 때부터보고 있지만, 아이도 사회적인 생물 것은 성인과 다르지 않다고 생각했고, 나 자신이 여성으로 살아 부딪쳐 온 것과 아이들이 앞으로 부딪 치는 것이 다른 생각이 들었다는 것도 있습니다. 물론 성별이라는 속성만으로 모든 것이 결정되는 것은 아니지만, 성별에 따라 사회로부터받는 것의 차이는 현재는 크다고 생각합니다.

　예를 들면 여자는 학교 나 부모로부터 생리에 대해 배우는하지만, 소년은 자신의 몸의 구조 나 사정에 대해 제대로 배우는 기회가 좀처럼 없다 든가, 재미 네요. 성교육에 대한 여자도 전혀 부족하지 않지만, 소년 이야말로 성교육이 필요하다고 계속 생각하고있었습니다.

　2018 년 12 월 imidas라는 사이트에서 '성 차별 사회와 부모와 어떻게 마주? "라는 인터뷰를 했습니다만, 전부터 이런 주제에 대해 이야기하고 있었다 편집자'이 주제로 책을 쓰고 보지 않습니까? "라고 계속하면서 해. 장 대는 편집자의 제안을 元西 기본으로하고 싶은 말을 쓰고 지른 것을 잘 정리해 주신 느낌입니다.

- 이번 책에서는 소년, 나아가 남성 관련된 다양한 '속박'과 성별 편견을 테마로하고 있습니다. 예를 들어 소년은 행동이 난폭하기도하고 초조하거나해도 '남자라는 바보 지요 "라고 웃으며 마지막에하는 일이 자주 있지요.


　남자의 응석으로 철없는 행동을 웃음한다는 행위 자체를 부정하지 않을 것입니다. 그냥 나도 예를 들어 "우리 아들도 여기가 열심히 뭔가를 이야기해도 코 ほじり하면서 어디 론가가 버리는 거에요"라고 말해 웃음을 잡으려 해 버리는 것은 있습니다 만 과연 그것이 딸이라면처럼 재료로하는지, 아마하지 않는 것이라고 생각하면, 자신 속에도 바이어스가 있다고 알게되는 것은 있습니다.

　소녀와 소년이 같은 행동을하고도 성인이 그에 대해 다른 반응을하여 소년 쪽이 더 섬세함없는 취급을 받기 쉬운 경향이 있습니다. 이런 것이 어른이주의하지 않으면 안된다고 생각하고 있습니다.

　또한 여자라면 결코 간과되지 않도록 같은 난폭 한 행동을 소년이라고 "남자는 그런 것이 야"라고 어른이 흘려 버릴 수도 있습니다. 폭력적인 행동까지 "소년이라 어쩔 수 없지요」과 「남자의있는"으로 넘기다의 더미는 "유해한 남성 '에 결부 것이 아닐까, 나는 생각합니다.




30 년 이상 '똥침! "에 격분했다

- 그 "남자의있는"의 전형으로, 오오타 씨는 책에서 매우 진지하게 "똥침!"에 화가 있군요.

　"똥침! '에 대해 나는 30 년 이상 계속 그만두라고 생각했기 때문에 이번 글에되어 몹시 기쁩니다 (웃음).　

　"똥침! '는 일본 특유의 장난이라는 것이되고 있습니다 만, 이것을 날조라고 평가하는 것 자체가 악의적 인 행위를 왜소화하고 있다고 생각합니다. 저도 10 대 시절, 아는 초등학생 소년에 '똥침'된 수 있고, 그 때의 불쾌감과 혐오감은 지금도 기억하고 있습니다.

- 30 년 전이라면 몰라도 요즘 똥침 자식 따위 있나요?

　있어요! ! 그리고 지금의 부모 세대도 상당히 둔한 것입니다. "남자는 할게 이군요"같은.

　항문을 대상으로 한 장난 때로는 심각하고, 2018 년에 34 세의 남성이 동료에서 공기 압축기를 항문에 강요 폐 손상으로 사망 사건이 일어났습니다. 가해자는 "농담"을하고 있었다고 말했다 합니다만,이 가해 행위는 "똥침!"를 재미있어하는 감각의 연장에있는 것이지요. "똥침 일본 외국 '이라는 키워드로 검색해 보면, 외국인 교사가"갑자기 학생들에게 당하고 경악했다 "고 등과 작성된 블로그도 발견했다.

　"똥침!"치마 넘기기뿐만 아니라 성폭력입니다. 동성끼리라도. 하지만 왠지 싫어요라고 생각하고 있어도, 사람의 교제를 의미하는 「호모 소셜의 정」이 지배적 인 상황이라고 "이상한 놈, 여자 같은 녀석이라고 생각되고 싶지 않다"등과 목소리를들 수 없거나 현상에 적응하고 받아 넘기는 데 왠지 싫다는 자신의 마음을 마비시키고하는 사람도있는 것이 현실 인 것은 아닐까요.





- 최근 화제의 드라마 「한자와 나오키」도 배우 세트에서 재미입니다 만, 카타 오카 愛之助 분장 구로 駿一에 정말 답답 하거든요. 이번에도 오네 말 노출로 부하의 사타구니를 움켜 있습니다. SNS는 호평을 받고 있습니다 만, 정말 웃고 좋을지 ...

　상사가 부하의 사타구니를 움켜하는 행위는 성희롱 것입니다. 위자료를 청구 할 수있는 불법 행위라고 할 수 있습니다. 명백한 성폭력을 웃음을 가지고 맥락에서 그린다는 것은 악질이라고 생각 합니다만.

- 조잡한 행위에 대해 "그것은 폭력"이라고 목소리를 들어 "농담에 진지하고 ~"처럼 반대로 웃지 될 수도 있지요.

　폭력에 항의를 조롱하거나 웃음의 소재로하고 은폐하거나하는 것 자체에 강한 폭력성이 포함되어 있습니다. 웃음의 형태를 취하지되면 항의도 "농담을 모르는 놈"취급 될 수 미리 알기 때문에 괴롭힘을 한 당사자는 목소리를 높여 어려운 기분이되는 것은 당연합니다.

　성희롱에 대한 항의의 목소리를 야유, 嘲笑わ하는 것은 힘든 네요. 그러한 상황을 없애고 싶고, 좋은 방향으로는 있다고 생각 합니다만, 1 년, 2 년은 무리 네요.

　나는 10 년, 20 년 계획 믿습니다 차세대에의 움직임은 피해자도 가해자도없는 세상을 만들기위한 파종이라고 생각합니다. 물론 지금 일어나고있는 성희롱을 방치하지 말라하고 하랏사가 멸망 기다리고 있어도 하랏사도 세대를 넘어 재생산되어 갈 가능성이 있습니다. 하지만 그래도 목소리를내는 사람이 증가함으로써 세계가 좋은 방향으로 변화 할 것이라고 믿습니다.





- 성희롱이나 성폭력을 당 않도록 여성 측에 자위를 촉구하는 것은 지금까지도 많이있었습니다. 하지만이 책은 남성들을 가해자가되지 않기 위해서는 어떻게하면 좋을지에 대해 다루고 있네요.

　예. 가해자가 없으면 성희롱도 성폭력도 없기 때문에 피해자를 낳지 않도록 아니라 가해자를 낳지 않도록해야한다고 생각하기 때문입니다.

　"성희롱도 성폭력도하지 않는다 '는 남성도 자각이없는 채 사회에서 여러 가지를 박아 버리고있는 곳이있는 것은 아닐까. 그리고 그것을 사실은 남성 자신도 싫고 제거하고 싶어하지만, 잘하는 방법을 몰라하고 있다는 사실도있는 것은 아닐까요.

　남성도 서로를 견제하고 서로 호모 소셜 장소가 아니라 "나도 그것을 알 겠지」라고 속마음을 吐き出せる 장소를 만들라고 매우 중요하다고 생각합니다. 그렇게 할 사람이 자신을 묶고있는 것으로부터 해방으로 이어질 것이므로, 만약 이것을 읽고 뭔가 울렸다라는 남자는 꼭 남자 만의 독서회를 열고 좋겠습니다. 서로 "나도 이런 것이 괴로웠다" "여기가 잘 안다" "여기 납득할 수 없었다"고 공개적으로 이야기하는 것으로, 자신들이 처한 문제와 마주 할 수있는 것이기 때문에.




목소리를내는 것이 성 차별은 개선되어가는

- 한편 이전부터 문제가되고있는 성 차별의 개념에도 목소리를내는 사람이 한 것으로, 조금씩 바뀌어 왔습니다. 옛날에는 수영복에 맥주 잔을 가진 여자 모델의 포스터가 곳곳에 있었지만 지금은 보이지 않게했습니다.

　10 년, 20 년 단위로 잘되어 있다고 생각 합니다만, 아직도 성 차별과 성폭력은 끝나지 않기 때문에, 말을 계속 갈 수 밖에 없지요. 예를 들어 현재의 온천은 남탕과 여탕이 일일되는 것이 당연 "남탕은 훌륭하지만, 여탕은 좁고 좋다"라는 사람은 없겠지요? 예전에는 노천탕은 남탕 밖에 없거나, 여탕이 검소하고 좁거나 했습니다만, 소리를 지르는 여성들 있었다함으로써 개선되어갔습니다.

　당시 성 차별에 항의하는 여성들은 '히스테리 아줌마 "라고 바보로되어 있었지만, 이들은 조롱을 두려워하지 않고"중 시대가 따라 온다 "고 목소리를 들어있었습니다. 성 차별과 성폭력에 목소리를내는 사람에게 비난은 지금도 매우 강하기 때문에 위축 돼있는 사람도 많이있는 것. 하지만 과거를 되돌아 보면, 소리를 질러 온 선인들의 힘으로 이전보다 성 차별이 줄어들고 있어요. 소리를 들면 사회는 변화하는 것입니다. 그러한 사례를 알게되면 위축하지 않고 소리를 지른다 활기가 생기는 것일까라고 생각하고, 그런 것도 조금 쓰고 있습니다.

- 한편 치한 이야기를하면 바로 원죄의 이야기를 꺼내거나 "나는 그렇게하지 않는다"로 끝하여 마주 않거나하는 사람도 많이 있습니다.

　영어 공부를 겸해 영어권 페미니스트의 짹짹을보고 있는데, "나는 성 차별과 성폭력을하지 (에서 자신과 관계없는) '라는 태도 이른바'노트 올 맨 '은 아무래도 일본 만의 현상은 아닌 것 같다.

　또한 여성에게 혼나거나 부정되거나하면 いきり立つ인데, 남성주의되면 솔직하게 듣는 사람도 있지요. "무엇을 말하는가? '보다'누가 말하는가?"라는 속성이 비방의 유무 나 정도를 크게 좌우한다는 것은 고도 성 차별이 테마 때는 잘 볼 수 있습니다. 여성이 목소리를내는 과잉 반응하는 일부 남성의 공격성을 보면 일부는 공격 자체를 즐기는 사람도있는 것 느낍니다. 또한 공격성의 근저에는 두려움과 불안이 있고, 여성을 학대하는 것으로 그 두려움과 불안을 紛らわそ려고하고 있는지도 모릅니다.

--DV 등의 범죄의 이유를 "상대를 사랑하고 있기 때문이다"라고하는 남성도 있군요.

　거짓말을 한 여자를 설득하여 결혼하는 것이 나중에 들킨 때 "좋아"라고 말하는 유부남도 종종 봅니다. 이 '좋다'라는 애정 표현에 보이는 말은 종종 폭력과 괴롭힘을 은폐하는 거죠. 이런 것을보고 있기 때문에, 남자가 여자에게 심술했을 때, "그 여자가 좋아 이지요"라고 어른이 말하고하는 것은 매우 신경이 쓰이는 것 또한이 책에 썼습니다.

　"호의가 있다면 폭력의 악순환이 줄어든다"같은 착각을하는 말투가 아닌가 생각합니다. '사랑해'라던가 '좋아해'라고 말하는 단어는 쉽게 폭력을 보이기 힘들어하는 위험성이있는 것을 근거로 성인 자녀 실수로 "그 소년이 심술 것은 당신을 좋아 하니까 인 것 "라고 말해야은 없다고 생각합니다. "그런 방법으로는 호의는 전해지지 않으며 오히려 미움도 어쩔 수 없다"고 정면으로 가르쳐야하지 않을까.




10 대 남자에 읽었 으면

-이 책을, 어떤 사람들에게 읽고 싶어합니까?

　독자로서 가장 염두에두고있는 것은 육아중인 부모 나 교사 나 주위의 어른들입니다. 나이 불문하고 남성도 꼭 읽었 으면합니다. 특히 10 대 정도의 남성. 고등학생 정도에서 읽을 수 있다고 생각합니다. SNS를보고 있으면 10 세의 아이가 "엄마 이것 갖고 싶다」라고 말해 줬다는 게시물이있어 기뻤습니다. 10 세라면 전부 통독 것은 조금 어려울지도 모르지만, 신경 쓰이는 부분 만이라도 읽어 줄 수 있으면 좋겠다고 생각합니다.

　하지만 아이는 성장이 빠르기 때문에 "내년 말하는 것이 늦 아닌가"라고 생각하는 것이 많이 있습니다. "보통"대학생 집단 성폭력 사건의 보도와 페미니스트 연구자 대학생 성희롱 트윗 등을 때때로 볼 것이므로 사람은 몇 살부터도 배우고 분리하기 전에이란 생각하면서 꽤 젊은 시절에 성 차별 가치관에 물들어 버리는 것이 비교적 있는데 아닐까 위기감을 가지고 있습니다.

　그래서 있으면 대학생이되기 전에 많은 년경 중에 이런 것을 생각할 기회를 가지고 좋겠습니다. 예를 들어 중고 일관의 남학교의 도서관 이라든지에두고 주시면 기쁘다.

　아들이에서보고 듣는 남자의 행동에 대해 "우리 아이가 10 년 후,이 나이가되면 어떤 느낌 일까」라든가 여러가지로 가까이 생각이 늘면서 다양한 것을 부모 마음 같은 마음으로 느끼게되기도합니다.

　아들 포함한 앞으로의 소년은 "남성 다움"의 저주에서 자유롭게 살아 바라며, 성 차별 구조가 사회에서 '남성'이라는 특성을 가지고 있다는 의미를 이해하고 적극적 으로 성 차별과 싸우는 남자도 성장하고 싶다. 나는 부모로서 성인의 한 사람으로서도 "응원 하니까"라고 마음으로 앞으로의 소년들에게 기대하고 지켜 나가고 싶다고 생각합니다.



"좋은 책 好日"관계 기사에서

> 남녀의 살기 괴로움은 동전의 양면 다나카 유키 씨 "남자가 10 대 중 생각하고 싶은 것"

> 차별과 편견을 숨겼다 "교활한 말」을 해설 사회 학자 · 모리야마 至貴 씨 인터뷰
함께 읽고 싶은

남자 다움, 여자 다움의 재고를 "성 다양성 '을 생각하는 3 권 기노 쿠니 야 서점 원 씨 오스스 ...
안도 유키 씨 "좋은 터치 나쁜 터치"미취학 아동도 이해할 수있는 성교육 그림책
포경은 언제부터 부끄러워 "하게되었다"인가? "일본의 포경 '에서보기 남성 성을 ...

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玖保 樹鈴 (くぼきりん)자유 기고가

섹슈얼 마이너리티과 여성의 인권 문제, AV 출연 강요 문제 등을 취재.

Jesus is/isn’t the only way. – “They can’t all be true” – except when they are. | Jesus is/isn't the only way. - "They can't all be true" - except when they are.

Jesus is/isn’t the only way. – “They can’t all be true” – except when they are.

There are numerous problems with this line of thinking from a progressive Christian perspective. 

i. The lack of emphasis upon Jesus' 30-33 years of life - his way, teachings, and example. 

2. Reducing the faith to a cerebral matter of what individuals accept as accurate information. 

3. The view that salvation is largely a matter of where we'll go when we die. 

4. The idea that it is Jesus' death on the cross that allows anyone to experience salvation. 

5. The notion that hell is even a Christian concept - it isn't.

I addressed all of these matters in full and in depth in my book Kissing Fish: ch ristianityfor people who don't like christianity. I've avoided addressing these matters as a blog as they frankly are complicated and require, and are worthy of, much back-story, nuance, and sophisticated discourse. However, it's become clear that there's a need for a briefer synopsis that's easily accessible and shareable online.

Here we go. Re: I & 2, It's a damn shame and tragedy that so many Christians focus on Jesus' death and not on his life. Mel Gibson's movie The Passion of the Christ is a keen example of this distortion of authentic Christianity. The idea that simply accepting X, Y, and Z about Jesus' person, death, and resurrection is what matters - and not focusing on his teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, and looking at his actual ways of practicing his religion in interacting with and relating to people - is missing the forest for the trees (and only a tiny number of trees at that). It's an epic adventure in missing the point. One can believe "all the right things" and not be able to love their way out of a wet paper bag. It's loving that matters. (I Corinthians 13 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/? sear ch=I+Corinthians+13))

priorities - what various religions teach that pertains to Jesus' death and resurrection. Sure, Muslims don't think Jesus was killed, and Buddhists and Hindus don't believe in resurrection. And Hindus have many gods to worship and Jews only one. So what? Those are hardly what Jesus and his message are all about. In other words, the things that conservative Christians tend to think are the essential foundations - aren't. Christians are called to follow the religion of Jesus - not the religion about him.

The graphic featured is one that is an obvious play and attack on the many variations of the symbolic COEXIST slogan featured on bumper-stickers across the land.

(http 5: //wp -media. p atheos.com/blogs/sites/396/2o15/o4/images.jp g) Such stickers are meant to convey a sense of appreciating the diversity of world religions and a deep valuing of all of them - including the common ground among them.

Such stickers are an invitation to remind us of a higher calling to "pray well with others."

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(https://wp-

media. p atheos.com/blogs/sites/396/2o15/04/I 10378 26_104679474201 from a progressive Christian perspective, Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life," and all who follow Jesus' way, teachings, and example - the way of unconditional love, of radical hospitality, of loving-kindness, of compassion, of mercy, of prophetic speaking truth to power, the way offorgiveness, of reconciliation, and the pursuit of restorative justice - by whatever name, and even if they've never even heard of Jesus, are fellow brothers & sisters in Christ and his Way.

To the extent that other world religions are about instilling, fostering, and nurturing those universal values - we see Christ in them. This is also true for secular NGOs such as Global One Foundation (http://www.globalonefoundation.org/).

We might also say that on a surface level, all of the major world religions are the same. On a deeper level, all of those religions are very different. And on a still deeper level, all of those religions are the same.

That said, we're rather enamored by the uniqueness of the Jesus story and we invite others to join us in sharing in that specific life-giving journey - even if we feel no dire need to convert anyone.

UPDATE: I'm adding the following as a post-script. I had posted it as a comment in the feedback thread below, but wanted to make sure every one could see it:

Roger here. In my book Kissing Fish, I stated that "each of the major world religions are like wells, and if you go deep enough into any of them, you'll hit the same aquifer and Source." I firmly believe that. However, I'm particularly drawn to the well of Christianity.

I don't literally think that all religions are *exactly* the same.

German, English, Korean, or Swahili are all valid, effective, languages, but they aren't exactly the same. The same is true for the major world religions. There are differences to be sure among the religions - but to the extent that they each seek to foster increased love, compassion, justice, mercy, etc - they're doing the same work and helping people connect with themselves, each other, and beyond.

That said, IMO, those various religions have differing capacities and histories in doing those particular things. Christianity, at its best, is a particularly effective vehicle for helping people become more loving and just. One of the key reasons that I'm a Christian is because of its long history of prophetically speaking truth to power and seeking to challenge and change unjust social systems. Many of the Asian religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism) have tended to avoid saying that there is right and wrong or good or bad. Such a philosophy can reduce personal suffering via letting go of certain mindsets. That said, they also tend to result in moral quietude in the face of mass injustice and end up fostering increased social suffering. Case in point, the many centuries of the oppressive caste system in India.

 

(h ttps://www.pa th eos.co m/blogs/rogerwolsey/2o19/o9/lio ns-and-tigers-and-pro gressives-oh -my/roger-wolsey-h eadsh o t/)

Rev. Roger Wolsey is an ordained United Methodist pastor who directs the Wesley Foundation at the University of Colorado at Boulder, and is author of Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don't like christianity

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BrotherRog Mod • 4 years ago

"To claim God exclusively for Christians is to make God too small and in a real sense is blasphemous. God is bigger than Christians and cares for more than Christians only." ~ Archbishop (Emeritus) Desmond Tutu

Roger Wolsey

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Marc Herman • 4 years ago

The Man of Nazareth stands for a message that has a unique dimension that no other religious system or spiritual movement has, a message he has exhibited not though a theory or a book but through an intense and short passage on this earth — the startling news that God desires to be like us.

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Keith A. Jenkins • 4 years ago

John 14:6 can easily be understood in a way that does not lead to Christian exclusivism. Here's one way, from God Explains It All, a series of fanciful, off-beat conversations between God and me on a range of topics:

You always need to remember: I love all of my creatures; I want to be in a loving, life-affirming, mutual relationship with all of my creatures; I want all of my creatures to be the best they can be; and I never give up. From these truths, all else follows.

So you just eventually forgive everyone, no matter what they did, and whether or not they repent, and let them into Heaven.

I don’t “let” anyone “into” Heaven. Only those who are suited for Heaven can live in my presence. And only those who realize their need for me and allow

see more

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Alicia Simpson • 4 years ago

Jesus of Nazareth was born near Passover in the year 6 BCE.

Jesus began his public ministry in 26-27 CE (John the Baptist was arrested in 27 CE).

The crucifixion occurred on Friday 3 April 33 CE at the age of 39.

Jesus' public ministry lasted for 6 or 7 years.

John recorded the 3 times Jesus went to Jerusalem for the Passover, not every Passover that Jesus celebrated.

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IamPERFECTinSOmanyWAYS 4 Alicia Simpson • 4 years ago • edited

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JESUS FREAK ALERT

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A

BrotherRog Mod 4 Alicia Simpson

• 4 years ago • edited

Possibly. That is certainly one possible dating. Please know that there is no consensus among the scholars regarding the exact date of Jesus birth or his death. He could've been born as late as four B.C.E. and could've died as early as 30 CE. Peace. - Roger https://en.m.wikipedia.org/...

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Alicia Simpson

• 4 years ago

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4 BrotherRog

Herod the Great died in 4 BCE (most likely March) so 4 BCE is the latest that Jesus could have been born.

The key is understanding what the Star of Bethlehem really was. One clue is what the Magi told Herod as to when they first saw it. Herod was a bit paranoid, so it is likely that he doubled what ever they told him. Remember he told his men to kill all male infants and toddlers under the age of 3 (2 years old and under — remember you are 2 right up until the day before you turn three). This gives us a framework of about 15 to 18 months as to the timing the Magi gave Herod.

In February of 5 BCE there was a comet that was visible in the middle east (Matthews description of its behavior works well with a comet and, in the 1st cent r the onl astronomical objects

century, the only astronomical objects recognized were the sun, the moon, and the stars and a comet qualified as a star) through the middle of April. Further in the year 7 BCE there was an unusual set of planetary alignments, Saturn and Jupiter aligned in Pisces 3 times, the last being December of 7 BCE. This alignment is something that occurs about once every 1,000 years or so. Recognizing that the "Star of Bethlehem" may well have been tow separate astronomical events and also realizing that Jesus must have been at least 8 months old to survive a trip from Bethlehem to Egypt, we begin to understand that the Magi came around when Jesus was about 1 year old.

So if the comet was the second part of the Star of Bethlehem and the unusual alignment was the first part, counting 15 months from the last of the three alignments, we come to late March or early April for the birth of Jesus in 6 BCE.

As for his date of death, scholars now believe that Passover of 31 CE and 33 CE are the two most likely times. The 30 CE only comes from the assumption that his ministry lasted 3 years, based on the Gospel of John, a very unreliable assumption. Of the two most likely years, only in 33 CE was there a Lunar Eclipse visible from Jerusalem on the Friday evening, the start of Passover. Peter specifically references a prophecy that specifies a Blood Red Moon, which is how a lunar eclipse was usually described.

So, his birth was most likely between March and June of 6 BCE and his death was most likely on 5 April 33 CE. These are the dates we should be basing things on, at least until we get better information.

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Catherine Averill Howland • 4 years ago

I had 3 international students in a group - 3rd grade boys from India, China and Malaysia who practiced Mormonism, Christianity and Islam. That year Ramadan and Eid fell right about the same time as Christmas and they were talking about the upcoming break from school and what they were going to do. A lot of questions about what they believed ensued and so we decided to learn about their different faiths. We laid ground rules about proselytizing and wrote home for any information they could send, and did some internet research. They discovered that: 1. They all believe there is one God who is supreme. 2. Their God has a messenger in the form of an angel named Gabriel and 3. Gabriel was the messenger who told Mary she'd give birth to Jesus, revealed the tablets to Joseph Smith and gave the Qur'an to Mohammed. Their synopsis was life changing for me - They said, "Our God told each of us and our 'people' what we needed to hear and gave us what we needed to have WHEN we needed it and in a way we could understand. Isn't it cool that we are more alike than we are different."

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Alan Harmony • 4 years ago

You never get past the first and huge concern that Christianity is an idolatrous cult. At the Council of Nicea less than 15% of all the bishops had a conference and at the bidding of Constantine 'unanimously' voted Jesus to be a god of Rome. That act turns a messiah into an idol of Rome. The name was already problematic by virtue of the belief and practice being called Christianity from people in Paul's area of teaching. The lessons Jesus taught went from access to inspiration (The Way) to a shift towards idolizing the teacher. Most clergy rationalize that it's the same thing... but it isn't. Look around you and see how many churches teach the lessons to get the inspiration from dreams or visions (Num 12: 6, Job 33:15 & Joel 2:28). Then look at how many make reference to such a use as being heretical or satanic or ignore, deny or impugn that use.

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Edwin Woodruff Tait

• 4 years ago

4 Alan Harmony

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This is fake history. Nicea didn't "vote Jesus to be a god of Rome," and Jesus' divinity was taught long before that.

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BrotherRog Mod 4 Alan Harmony

g

• 4 years ago • edited

I hear you however there have been many reforms that have taken place since then. Progressive Christianity is the movement that I advocate, am part of, and am blessed by. Progressive Christianity could more rightly be called "conservative Christianity" as it seeks to conserve the values, teachings, and way that made the faith a gift to the world in the first place. Overtly naming this as progressive Christianity however conveys a progressive message that may reduce wariness and apprehension about Christianity as a way that makes sense in the 21st century. Peace. - Roger Wolsey

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BrotherRog Mod • 4 years ago

"the most recent Christological controversies have been generated

not so much by alternative interpretations of the sacred text, as by

constructions that simultaneously recognize the validity of many

elements of orthodox Christology while setting it in a framework that

relativizes it. Thus Panikkar argues that, while Christ is incarnated in

Jesus, Christ cannot be identified with Jesus: Christ is always more

than Jesus. Christianity may have a monopoly on Jesus, but not on

Christ. God has disclosed himself in Christ, and doubtless for

Christians the historical connection is Jesus. But for Hindus, Christ

has manifested himself in a different form appropriate to that religious

structure. Thus there is a “cosmic Christ.” Rahner would add that this

means there are “anonymous Christians,” people who are Christians

without ever having heard of Christ, or even in some cases who have

repudiated Christianity as they have experienced it while accepting the

(unrecognized) “Christ” in their own religious heritage."

A. Scott Moreau, Harold Netland, and Charles van Engen, Evangelical

g , g

Dictionary of World Missions, Baker Reference Library (Grand Rapids, MI;

Carlisle, Cumbria, UK: Baker Books; A. Scott Moreau, 2000), p. 190.

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BrotherRog Mod • 5 years ago

“. . . but the Universe is an awfully big place. There is room enough for an awful lot of people to be right about things and still not agree.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, The Sirens of Titan

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BrotherRog Mod • 5 years ago • edited

The mystics from each of the world religions tend to have more in common with each other than they have in common with the more conservative members of their respective faith traditions. - Roger Wolsey

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PremiumOsmium > Guest • 5 years ago

But as you pointed out, every religion makes claims as to how the world works and things that happened. Isn't it important to know whether or not what you believe is actually true? Did Jesus die and rise from the dead? Did an angel dictate the Koran to Muhammad? Did Joseph Smith find golden plates containing a new gospel of Jesus? Did all of that happen? Some of it? None of it?

If you say that the message of Jesus is more important than the claims about him, then fine. But then the question becomes, "Why"? Should we follow Jesus's message because doing so is good for people? Or should we follow Jesus's message because it comes directly from a god and we are commanded to do so? If you go by the first option, then who Jesus was or what he actually did or said becomes totally irrelevant. If you go by the second option, then you need to show some solid justification as to why you believe that to be true.

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BrotherRog

• 5 years ago

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Mod > PremiumOsmium

i i h d d d h

Keen insights, and I devoted the 398 pages of my book "Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don't like christianity" to delving into those very questions.

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Cyndi Bertone • 6 years ago

I've been scrolling through the comments on this article and some of the good (and some of the not so good) dialogue about it. Just have to add my thoughts. Articles like this make my heart sing. But it wasn't always this way. About 14 years ago I started practicing yoga. I totally ignored all of the philosophy until I was about 6 years in when I started to notice some similarities between my teachers "dharma" talks (lessons in philosophy) and sermons that I'd hear on Sunday. I'm a bottom line kind of person, so I am always looking for the message. Now let me say that although the origins of yoga (5000 years ago) are from an area in the world that heavily practices Hinduism, yoga philosophy is over and over proclaimed NOT to be "religious" but rather spiritual. That's because, as I came to realize, the messages are available to be heard in many different contexts. The details of the stories (the philosophy of yoga and the messages of the sermons) were always very different, but the underlying message would be the same. Very often those messages were pretty much of the theme of the 10 commandments. At some point I began praying quite seriously for guidance because I felt so conflicted: how can these philosophy messages resonate so deeply in my core, but it's not from the religion that I know and love? The message I got over and over again was find a way to reconcile it because both are valid. That reconciliation came for me when I came to this realization: if God is the greatest teacher, and he has to explain this extraordinarily difficult concept of who He is, a good teacher would use different frames of reference to teach to different students. So in one area of the world, His message became one religion, in another part of the world it came through as another and so on. How CAN one religion be the ONLY religion?? Even the bible tells us that God's greatness is completely beyond our limited comprehension. At the core of all the faiths, the message I keep hearing is take care of each other, love each other and love God. That's my bottom line. All the rest gets lost in details.

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Chad Varner • 6 years ago

Following the two statements attached in picture is the hardest thing anyone on this Earth can do.

Guess who said them. The life of that person showed the way. It is the truth. There is only 1 true religion. The good in all the others is just a reflection upon Him.

Everyone in this world is a Christian, whether they practice it or not.

⛺

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James • 6 years ago

The one problem that I have with posts like this, as well as the idea of Christian Universalism as a whole, is its tendency to reduce the significant cosmological, material, theological, philosophical, and anthropological perspectives of various religions down to a moral-ethical paradigm that is grounded within a Christian context (assuming that the moral-ethical paradigms operate in the same way to Christianity, which they do not), and then presumes that so long as non-Christians act according to said paradigm they will have access to the benefits of Christian eschatology, even if that person has chosen a life and faith that do not share that eschatology. It erases people's free will, context, experiences, and agency that would either empower them to reject the Christian Gospel. It is well intentioned, to be sure, but you do a disservice to the great diversity of religions of the world by boiling them down to a Christian-centric moral-ethical paradigm.

S. Paul said for us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. I think I will follow his lead, and let God handle and manage the things I do not understand.

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Edwin Woodruff Tait > James • 4 years ago

This isn't necessarily about universalism, but about pluralism.

It's quite possible to be a universalist without reducing Christianity to a "moral-ethical paradigm" (Barth is a striking example).

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Chad Varner 4 James • 6 years ago

As a Christian, I give up my free will for His Will.

Everyone is a slave to someone/something.

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BrotherRog Mod 4 James

• 6 years ago • edited

I disagree. People's free will is not at all erased by what I've shared. Moreover, I haven't "boiled down all religions" to being Christian. Yes, I'm Christo-centric, and I'm writing to a largely Chriso-centric audience, but Christianity doesn't have a monopoly on compassion, justice, love, mercy, forgiveness, etc. Seems to me that you're the one who is saying that those are Christian virtues ("moral-ethical paradigm"). Agreed, we are called to work out our own salvation. Peace.

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Janet Douglass • 6 years ago

Thanks Roger. Posted on my (UM) Church Facebook for people to read and remind them again of these persistent distractions to being church in the

world and for the world.

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Gle3nn • 6 years ago

So when in Egypt, everyone was warned to sacrifice a lamb and put the blood on their door so that the angel of death would pass over them. Were the ones who chose not to do so, spared the consequences of not following God's direct instructions?

So now when Jesus presents himself as the ultimate sacrifice for us, if we choose not to accept his blood as our covering, why would we not expect the same consequence?

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BrotherRog Mod 4 Gle3nn • 6 years ago

We interpret Jesus' life and death differently. I don't subscribe to the substitutionary theory of the atonement, instead, I favor the moral influence theory. Peace.

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Kathleen Lipscomb

• 4 years ago

4 BrotherRog

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Are you related to Ragnarök?

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Jerry Lynch • 6 years ago

Here is something that you may appreciate; it came to me back in the mid-80s during my return to Christianity via Zen: Paradox is the native tongue of truth.

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Agni Ashwin > Jerry Lynch • 6 years ago

From Original Sin to Original Zen?

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The Mighty Damuramu (pka TOW) • 6 years ago

I wonder if Christians can't help but focus on the death of Jesus. They wear the symbol of his death around their necks, they adorn their homes and houses of worship with them. When they are surrounded by so much imagery of torture and execution, it's no wonder that it's what they focus on.

Mod > The Mighty Damuramu

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BrotherRog

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(pka TOW) • 5 years ago

.. though, that hasn't always been the case. The cross didn't really come to be the symbol for the faith until the 4th century. Prior to that, the fish was the symbol for those who follow Jesus.

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Frank Franklin TOW) • 6 years ago

> The Mighty Damuramu (pka

It's not the tail wagging the dog here.

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Peter Kupisz • 6 years ago

"This graphic depicts a polarized either/or perspective. It’s the sort of

non-spiritual, non-mystical, unrealistic, and dysfunctional mindset that

progressive Christianity seeks to help people place in the dustbin of

history"

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Jesus Undefeated: Condemning the False Doctrine of Eternal Torment by Giles, Keith, Jersak, Brad,

Jesus Undefeated: Condemning the False Doctrine of Eternal Torment - Kindle edition by Giles, Keith, Jersak, Brad, . Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

Jesus Undefeated: Condemning the False Doctrine of Eternal Torment Kindle Edition

by Giles, Keith, (Author), Jersak, Brad, (Foreword)  Format: Kindle Edition

4.6 out of 5 stars    122 ratings

What if God is better than you think and hell isn't an eternal torture chamber?

Many Christians are unaware that Universal Reconciliation was the dominant view of the church for the first 500 years, with Annihilation and Eternal Torment as minority positions. Jesus Undefeated is an eye-opening examination of all three views of the afterlife and a God who is even more loving than we dare imagine. Discover the Gospel that is not merely “Good News,” but fantastically “Great News.”

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Paul Froehlich

5.0 out of 5 stars Faith is not fire insurance

Reviewed in the United States on December 11, 2019

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We like to think of ourselves as open-minded, even if we rarely revise our long-held beliefs. One such long-held Christian belief is that most of humanity is doomed to endless torture in the afterlife.

In his new book, Keith Giles challenges the standard Christian belief about Hell. He makes a compelling case for an alternative view of the afterlife, grounded in scripture, that is more consistent with God's boundless love and mercy and his will that none should perish.

Most Christians don't realize that the doctrine of Hell has changed over the centuries. The dogma about eternal suffering was not embraced by the early church. On the contrary, for the first 500 years, the church espoused Universalism or Ultimate Reconciliation. It is embedded in the words of Jesus and Paul, as well as by early theologians such as Clement, Origen, the Gregories, and Basil the Great.

None of the early Christian creeds, including the Nicene Creed, contained the doctrine about Eternal Suffering. Early Chriatians recognized that scripture was unclear about the afterlife, with conflicting verses, as opposed to clearly teaching one view. Giles contends that the scriptural support is weaker for eternal suffering than for the other two views. It's notable that The Old Testament contains not a single verse describing hell as a lake of eternal fire. It's a strange omission if eternal torment were the divine plan all along. If Jesus taught the eternal torment doctrine, then it's curious that his disciples did not preach it, since it's not mentioned in Acts.

Historically there have been three competing Christian vews of Hell based upon different Bible verses:

• Eternal Suffering or Infernalism, which is the most popular belief currently.

• Universalism or Ultimate Reconciliation under which those who die without Christ will pass through the fire before being reconciled.

• Annihilation or Conditional Immortality where the unsaved suffer in Hell until their sins are paid for, and then they will be destroyed forever.

All of these views agree that those who die without Christ will suffer in the afterlife; the disagreement is about the duration and purpose of that suffering.

There are several verses supporting Universal Reconciliation. God is the savior of "all men," according to 1Tim 4:10, which states, "for this we labor and strive, that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe."

"All will be made alive in Christ," per 1Cor 15:21-22. "For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

The same sentiment is found in Romans 5:18. "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men."

Eventually everyone will gladly confess Jesus Christ as Lord, according to Phil. 2:10-11. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

Paul says in Romans 10:9, that those who confess the Lord Jesus "will be saved." Since everyone will so confess, then everyone will be saved.

Everyone passes through the fire, which is used to reveal and refine, not to torture and destroy. Even those with worthless works will be saved, "only as one escaping through rhe flames," per 1 Cor. 3:13-15. "It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."

Hebrews 12: 6-11 tells us that God disciplines all of us, and does so "for our own profit, that we may be partakers of his holiness." In other words, God disciplines for the good of his children, not to punish for its own sake.

The doctrine of eternal torment crept into Jewish thought during the 400 years between the end of the Old Testament scriptures and the coming of Christ. The notion came from Greek and pagan sources.

There are six main verses in the New Testament with references to eternal suffering. Perhaps the best known is in Matthew 25:41, 46. "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...And these will go into eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The first verse tells us the fire is eternal, not that mortals will be there eternally. The second verse uses the word eternal that comes from a Greek word (aionius) that can also mean a very long time.

Mark 9:43-44, 47-48 states, "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out...It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

Jesus is quoting from Isaiah 66:24, where the prophet was warning about what would happen to dead bodies, not a place of torment. When Jeremiah used similar language, he was speaking in a literal place called Gehena that subsequently did have dead bodies stacked and burned.

Jesus was actually warning about the destruction of the temple. It is more lilely that Jesus was referring to Gehena in the same sense as the prophets, rather than in the sense of the Pharisees. The prophets were using apocalyptic hyperbole, which they often did in their warnings of destruction. Hyperbole is figurative and poetic, not literal. It is also found in Revelations.

The words "eternal destruction" are used in 2 Thess. 1:9. “They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might…”

Destruction does not equate to endless torment. This verse supports the notion of annihilation rather than endless suffering.

Revelations has two verses referring to torment with burning sulfur (Rev. 14:10-11, 19:20-12). The first refers specifically to those who worship the Beast during his reign, not to everyone who dies apart from Christ. The second says the specific persons thrown into the lake of fire are the Beast and his prophet. The rest were killed, not sent to eternal torture.

Judgment using the book of life is briefly described in Rev. 20: 13, 15. "The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books...If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Verse 15 does not reveal what leads to a name not being in the book of life. Nor does it say that nonbelievers suffer forever.

One of the hardest things to do, Giles recognizes, is to convince Christians that the version of Hell they’ve been taught isn’t actually in the Bible. That's because they have never been told anything else and they’re convinced the Bible supports their view. In addition, they’ve been taught that fear is necessary for conversion. Unfortunately, some Christians "are more offended by the idea that God will save everyone than they are that God might burn the majority of peple for eternity."

One premise of the Eternal Suffering doctrine is that is God too holy to tolerate those covered in sin. That assertion isn't in the Bible. The closest verse supporting it is in Habbukuk 1:13a. "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong." But the next verse indicates that God does look upon the sinful: "why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?"

Is it desirable if faith is based upon fear, rather than upon "the good news of the kingdom"? The gospel, asserts Giles, is not "about a God who threatened to torture His children forever if they didn't love Him in return." The gospel is about reconciliation, not retribution, about love, not vengeance.

Our view of the afterlife should be consistent with the character of God as revealed through Christ. "If we see God as the "Abba" that Jesus revealed to us, then we may reject notions of a God who could torture His children for eternity and withhold His mercy from them forever." ###

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37 people found this helpful

Mike Snyder

5.0 out of 5 stars Another excellent job by one of the better critical thinkers in our day

Reviewed in the United States on November 9, 2019

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I admit I was reluctant to start this one because I believed this would be the most challenging book he’s written. I wasn’t wrong, I am left with more questions than before I started but thanks to this well written book I know where to find the answers. I am grateful for voices like Keith Giles because they challenge me to seek answers from God Himself and examine His fingerprints which are all over creation. I may not agree with every single thing he has to say, but he presents his ideas and beliefs in such a way as to leave the decision to the reader. He gives you plenty of solid evidence to dive into, and if you allow yourself to go...he will take you an adventure through the gospel. This is the 4th book I’ve read from Keith. It’s tough to say this one is the best or that one is better because they all take different approaches at putting the Church back on the right path which should always lead straight to Jesus! I read this book in a matter of hours, I will be pondering it for the next weeks (maybe months) to come.

23 people found this helpful

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Daniel C. House

5.0 out of 5 stars Jesus Undefeated, WOW!!!

Reviewed in the United States on November 10, 2019

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Jesus Undefeated!!! Wow!! Awesome! Thank you for writing this book! My journey from eternal torment through annihlationism (thanks to Greg Boyd) to patristic universal salvation has been a long journey. I had to really search for resources that would provide a picture of the past and the heart of God. I did not have a book to recommend to friends and/or family that could easily be read and used as a resource/spring board for a deeper dive. You have provided the book that makes a compelling argument for Universal Restoration and a beautiful overview of all 3 beliefs of the Church on this issue. This book also supplies the spring board of resources for a deeper dive. THANK YOU!

21 people found this helpful

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Rex Gray

5.0 out of 5 stars What The Hell?

Reviewed in the United States on November 10, 2019

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Growing up as an fundamental independent baptist I lived with the fear of the fiery pit of hell always lurking around the next corner. My embrace of Christ was initially a fire insurance policy just to make sure that I didn't wind up in the "bad place." Over the course of the past several years, I have been unlearning much of the legalism and "terror" theology that was placed in me. Over the past year, I have been investigating the Scriptural teachings concerning the after life, particularly around the issue of eternal conscious torment (ECT), and have found them to be lacking in material support. Keith Giles new book, Jesus Undefeated has added invaluable information in this effort. If you are interested in examining a different view of hell from the current "traditional" model, this book is well worth the investment. Even if he doesn't convince you of his position, Giles will cause you to search more intently and think through the issues beyond a mere surface level.

22 people found this helpful

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Zac Cannon

5.0 out of 5 stars Abba's loving, restorative justice...

Reviewed in the United States on November 11, 2019

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I first heard Keith Giles speak on the podcast Heretic Happy Hour. The show features three “cast” members and, while they each bring something unique to the show and the exploration of various topics, Giles’s voice was a consistent echo of pastoral carefulness even when speaking about things in a way that is contrary to Western evangelical consensus (IE “Heresy!”).



I have read all of Giles’s books. They share the same qualities as Jesus Undefeated: careful, well-read, well-researched, concise, pastoral guidance towards a thoughtful illumination of the subject matter. His style is quick with little pontification and easily digestible for the theological novice and expert alike (unlike another book by a certain wordy scholar that came out on this subject earlier this year).

I would recommend Jesus Undefeated to anyone interested in an in depth, scriptural study with love laden application for all who are in Christ. ;)

19 people found this helpful

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Top reviews from other countries

Rudy

4.0 out of 5 stars Revealing to say the least

Reviewed in Canada on September 6, 2020

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I love this book. Lots of church HISTORY to back things up. Well laid out and explained. As I read page #40 I ask myself why didn't I know this, and why is the church still basing its gospel on salvation from hell?

Most pastors nowadays go to a Bible school to study the Bible, and I guess history as well. Why wouldn't they read this?

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Jamie

4.0 out of 5 stars Worth the Money, Worth the Time to Read!

Reviewed in Germany on October 25, 2020

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I have struggled with should I give this a 3 start or 4 star rating? In the end, I really felt the book was worth the money even though I knew much of what was already in the book from other books. What I found differentiating in this one was the authors story. In the end, I think that is the most important part of any book that seeks to reveal the truth that in the end Jesus is the savior of all! What I find is, the facts are often unable to be changed or manipulated and so anybody that writes about this topic seem to often find a great unity in the information. Yet it is the individual life stories of each author that really then touches your heart accordingly.

Now, I know not everybody is perfect and we all can have our blind spots. The only thing I would say is that the author has an interesting way of trying to bring the salvation of all into the doctrine which is "pretarism" which is found though history as being a view that the book of Revelations happened all in the past up to the destruction of Nero. Personally, I do not find any merit in such a perspective. However, nevertheless, it doesn't negate the rest of the book. It's just, one should be at least open to what "nuggets" the Lord might have you discover through his writings. And I certainly found a few. So other than the authors eschatological view of Revelations being something I do not agree with, the book is top!

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Paul Brauen

5.0 out of 5 stars Love or Fear?

Reviewed in Canada on November 10, 2019

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Hell. A creation of God or an invention of man? Is there a literal place of eternal torment created by a "loving" God or the everyday experience of humanity who need to learn to love one another and keep no record of wrongs? God is love and keeps no record of wrongs whereas humanity is full of fear, and is offended by everything that is opposed to their way of thinking, to what they believe. This book, Jesus Unbound, brings forth the proposition that Jesus Christ really was completely successful and that indeed, it - everything - is finished. Hell, what we believe, is no more. So step out of this human invention and live an abundant life in the know-ledge of a love that keeps no records of wrongs Buy the book and gain understanding!

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Arthur7

5.0 out of 5 stars A Milestone!

Reviewed in Germany on November 27, 2019

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Keith Giles has achieved a milestone with this book! As a lecturer and theologian, I have been studying the early Christian (patristic) faith for almost 8 years. Over and over again, I and my colleagues discovered how far our today's faith have moved away from the original beliefs. One focus of my studies was the understanding of judgment and hell in the early church. In the course of time, I have read many sources available, as well as almost all noteworthy specialist publications on the subject, often including very extensive works and dissertations. Again and again, I have wished, also for my own seminars, the possibility of being able to offer a compact, generally understandable, written summary of the current study situation. That is exactly what Keith did excellently with this book.

This book is certainly not the most comprehensive, most scholarly work on the subject - there are enough university literature for it.

This book does not address all early Christian sources, nor any weighty, soteriological, eschatological, or philosophical arguments, which in my view also inevitably speak for a universal expectation of salvation and against eternal torments of hell; but there are also excellent works for this purpose (for example Parry, Talbot and Hart).

This book serves rather a "gap" which was neglected criminally:

It is easy to read even for laymen, but at the same time almost every sentence is based on an immense amount of research and a convincing factual situation.

Some people may not trust this relatively small, inconspicuous book at first glance, but after reading I have to say: It's written absolutely solid and the quality of the content will be a great help and orientation for many. Rash critics, on the other hand, will be in danger of biting their teeth on this book because the foundation is impressively solid; because behind every statement of the core are many other unnamed sources and arguments.

Thank you Keith for this excellent, conscientious work!

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craig r. weir

5.0 out of 5 stars Wonderful reading!

Reviewed in Australia on July 1, 2020

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I thoroughly enjoyed reading this book by Keith Giles. This book has challenged the beliefs I was taught, and that I picked up via church culture. The views expressed in this book are all scripturally based and not overly complicated.

Keith has a great ability to simplify and unwrap these concepts of hell, making them easier to see and understand, presented in a way that the reader may come to their own conclusion on this subject.

However, there are aspects of this book that I have found intriguing, both historically and in scripture and has made me want to explore to gain a deeper understanding.

I think it was a highlight that Keith discussed the nature of God the Father, and abiding in Christ in the middle of the book, this really lifts our understanding from just theory to practice and that the relational aspect with God is key, not just knowing a mass of scripture verses.

I find my heart enlarged after reading this book. It also portrays a beautiful story of such a loving God and His creation. There are moments when I think ‘maybe it is all too good to be true’… is it really going to be like this? one can only hope so.

Thank you Keith Giles.

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