Transcript
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today i'm joined by an extraordinary person dr m scott peck he is a renowned
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psychiatrist and author of one of the most widely read books in modern history it's called
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the road less traveled few writers have touched more lives than dr peck and few messages have
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empowered more people in 10 years the road less travel has been sold to an unprecedented
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four and a half million readers a record that's been compared to that of the bible i wanted to talk with dr peck today to
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meet the person the mind behind such a powerful and influential book and words
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who can write a book that can stay on the bestsellers list for 10 straight years well in his work he
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shares lessons of truth and love and values that have enriched my life
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and i know millions of other people though his work is quite famous his face is not dr peck rarely appears on television and
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therefore i'm very honored to have him here with us today thank you very much for being here well
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thank you oprah it's good to be here although i hope my face doesn't become that familiar
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because you like having the anonymity really i really like privacy i'm a very shy person i don't know about you but i'm oh
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yeah i'm very shy how do you explain the fact that this has happened that this book has become a
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phenomenon well you know i'm a psychiatrist yes and in psychiatry we've got a
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saying that all things are over determined all symptoms are over determined by which we
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mean that a symptom or a disease has more than one cause and so there's not just one reason why
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this book has become so popular of course i think there are a whole bunch the most common response i've gotten to
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not only the road last traveled but most the rest of my other work is not that i've said anything new but i've
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been saying the kinds of things that people have been thinking in their heads all along but felt that they shouldn't talk about
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because they just went against the culture right and you know what it is what i call it that's an aha feeling
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you'll be reading and you go ah because it's something you already somewhere
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inside of you knew or have thought but just hadn't been able to articulate in such a way like for instance the very
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first line of road less travel is life is difficult i went aha
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yeah and uh this is the kind of thing you're not supposed to think about yeah you know we are bombarded by the
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media and even by the church with messages that we should be happy that the reason
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that we're here is to be comfortable and fulfilled and then when people get finding that they're not happy and
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they're not feeling comfortable or fulfilled they think that something must be wrong with them because they think that life ought to be easy because that's the
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kind of message of our culture it ought to be easy if you just do it right it's going to be easy and they got that and they said ah thank
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god yeah thank goodness at least somebody else knows that it isn't easy
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and once you see it in print that way you say life is difficult oh then i can go on and expect life to
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be difficult and that's why you started it that way exactly yes and so
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what should we expect well i think that we should hope for some happiness and some relief of pain and i think this
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is why doctors are good and i don't think that all pain is good but we grow also only through pain as benjamin
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franklin said those things that hurt instruct and i think that what happens to wise people
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is that sometimes they will actually come to welcome some of the pain in living because that's what they learn
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from do you believe that every experience is here to teach us something about ourselves yes yes again the the current message of
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our culture is that we're here to be happy and fulfilled i do not think that is the
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meaning of life i think that the meaning of life is that we're here to learn that this lifetime is what keats
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referred to as this veil of soul making yes and every day every experience
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contributes to the making of the soul yes there is a wonderful author by the name of donald
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nicole who wrote a book entitled holiness and in the introduction to it he referred to it as a how-to book
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he says if you're caught carrying around a book on holiness and people ask you what you're doing with it you're likely to say well i'm just
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interested to see what authorities have had to say about the subject he said but actually there's no reason for you to
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buy or read a book in holiness unless you're interested in becoming holy so it's a how-to book
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about two-thirds the way through that book there's a little sentence where nicole says he says we cannot lose we cannot lose once we
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realize that everything that happens to us has been designed to teach us holiness wow now what better
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news could there be than that we cannot lose we are bound to win we are guaranteed winners once we simply realize that yeah
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you know what i i mean gives me goose bumps because once i made that realization for myself and i i didn't phrase it that
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way but i had a dream many years ago well not that many years ago but i had a dream
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and in the dream i was flying and i loved flying dreams do you fly a lot in your dreams a little bit i sort of started i would
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be in an airplane and i'd be stuck i was the pilot for some reason and i'd keep trying to get this thing like an
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old goose off the ground and then as my dreams went on i got a little better we finally got off but you were the pilot in the plane
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i mean finally i went i got out of the plane entirely and started flapping my own arms yeah and uh got about three feet off the
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floor and and then i got really good at it i got about eight feet off the floor and at that point i stopped having them
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oh well i have the most wonderful flying dreams you fly all over the place oh my goodness sometimes i'm just topping the
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trees and sometimes i'm way above them and i can see them i think you're more enlightened than i am
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i don't think so but let me say this i've had this flying dream once and i didn't even have to use my arms to fly i
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could just move my foot and i was fine it was such an extraordinary flying dream that i actually thought
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i don't think i'm crazy but i actually thought after i awakened after i awaken i thought i think i
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actually left i believe i was really there but anyway i was flying down the street and kind of kind of changing my
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direction with my foot and i'd run into children i know it sounds crazy but but i would
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run into children and as i would encounter children they would say to me this is all the dream they'd say i'd say hi how are you doing they'd say
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no you're supposed to say what are you here to teach me what are you here to teach me
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and i wake him from that dream believing or understanding somehow that that's what every life experience
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is about whenever i would encounter somebody else on the street the children would say no what are you here to teach me what
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are you here to teach me you following me oh that's a beautiful dream thanks
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so much as i said i'm a psychiatrist so i can give you a certificate of mental health really for
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that dream for that tree but yes and so what happened after that is every single experience and there
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have been some good ones and some not so good ones i would look at that experience and say whenever
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crisis would come into my life i'd immediately say what is it here to teach me and what happens is there's a miracle
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that happens when you do that because when you look for the lesson the crisis sort of dissipates somehow
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why is that well i think that's one of the virtues of being a sort of spiritual or
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religious kind of person you know other people just get ups and downs in their lives whereas we religious folk get to have
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spiritual crises it is much more dignified to have a spiritual crisis than a depression
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yes and in fact you're probably going to get over that depression more quickly if you think of it in terms of the
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spiritual crisis which often it is not that there aren't biological causes of depression and again i think one of
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the things that we need to do desperately in our culture is to start dignifying
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discomfort of certain kinds start dignifying depression in some ways in the road less traveled you may
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remember there's a little subsection entitled the healthiness of depression yes midlife crisis we need to start
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dignifying crises in our lives so the most important thing we can gather from this few minutes we've spent together here is
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that life is difficult and that if you understand that if you go in understanding that
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and understand that every experience that you have is really an opportunity for you to learn something or can you
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give us that phrase again about holiness yes to teach you holiness yeah i think the key
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is to accept that it's difficult to also see that we are here to learn i think that's what the meaning is
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some other play some other time we may get to be fulfilled we may get to be happy happiness is a
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byproduct so for instance if you want love yeah and you're going out to get love chances are you're not gonna get
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love right on the other hand if you are loving and you work on being a loving person
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chances are a lot of love is gonna come your way well well as a byproduct of you being loved
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good and a lot of knowledge and a lot of enlightenment is going to come your way as long as you see it as your task to
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learn one of the most profound things you say and i think this could save the world a lot of time if they fully comprehend it when you say
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in the book that love is really not a feeling it is not a feeling y'all did y'all know that it's not a
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feeling all these years you thought it was a feeling but love is not a feeling one of the things that you emphasize
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i think that stays with a person more than anything and we're less travel is the concept of discipline
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well i preach a lot about what i need to learn but i did say in that that one of the
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things that we are here to learn is discipline this is what we teach our children or try to
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from the word go and if we don't have any discipline we can't solve any problems and i think
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that's part again of what life is about is about solving problems because we're here to
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learn we're here to learn and it's only through problems and working through the solution right
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because you can't learn if everything's going kind of hunky-dory that's right that's right you don't learn anything so how do we get people to understand that
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because if you just understood that this is a great big school room the planet earth is and that that you've
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come here to learn how to get along with other people number one how to love yourself and therefore spread that love
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around then that changes your entire perception of why things happen and relationships and jobs and
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everything does it not no well you're asking about love and love not being a feeling yeah you
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know they're going to be this saturday night they're gonna be thousands of
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men sitting in bars crying in their beer and saying to the barkeep that i you know i
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really love my children so much and i love my wife so much
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meanwhile they're not home and they're drinking away the family income and they are feeling
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i mean they are being honest when they tell the bar so what are they feeling what is that if that's not love if
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love's not a feeling well it's alcohol or uh or sometimes it's being in love
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which is a distinct difference which is uh some kind of genetic trick that is pulled on us or an
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illusion falling in love when we're in love it is not a unselfish loving kind of thing as a
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matter of fact it is a totally narcissistic kind of phenomenon it is what martin buber
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and his followers have called an eye relationship when we fall in love with somebody we do
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not fall in love with somebody else we fall in love with a fantasy today's episode is supported by chopra
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journey today
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i had the pleasure of speaking with m scott peck today and he says about falling in love in the road less
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travel we fall in love i know a lot of y'all are going to disagree but just hear me out here we fall in love only
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when we are consciously or unconsciously that's the key word sexually motivated
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the second problem is that the experience of falling in love is invariably temporary no matter whom we fall in love with we
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sooner or later fall out of love if the relationship continues long enough this is not to say that we invariably cease
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loving the person with whom we fell in love but it is to say that the feeling of ecstatic lovingness that characterizes the experience of
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falling in love always passes the honeymoon always ends
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the bloom of romance always fades well isn't this just a fine howdy duty
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which is not to say though that you cannot have long-term loving relationships with somebody that you're
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married to but that whole romance i'm so in love with your baby thing that's out it becomes an entirely
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different ballpark what happens i was saying that we fall in love with a fantasy that we have and
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then what happens after a couple of weeks or a couple of months or even after a couple years after we've
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gotten hooked like you're thinking of doing yeah then you wake up one morning and and we realize that our beloved no
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longer conforms to our fantasy well wait wait wait we're like stuck there with a stranger but i have i've had seven years to kind of look at
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him so you think i'm over that already i think i've already gone to the next i hope so okay thank you what do you think i think
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i really am i think that whole i'm not past the the illusion of that romance thing no i
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i think we have what is deeper than that now you're slugging through the mud and the swamps sometimes and yeah and that's where we
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learn a great deal and then it can become something really rich and strange and wonderful but it is not
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unfailing ecstasy but isn't that why so many marriages fail and i do so many shows throughout the year on
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relationships and problems within the marriage and i think one of the reasons that marriage is 50 of marriages fail today
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is because most people believe in the soap opera fantasy
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of the romance can continue so when the romance dies that that bloom is faded they think that that
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means that they don't love the person anymore or that the marriage is over isn't that correct yeah that their stars got crossed or
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something and when they find that they're out of love or they find in the context of a marriage that they're feeling lonely
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i had a fantasy when i got married that i would never feel lonely again and then i found myself at times when i
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was very difficult to communicate with lily and we were in different places and i was feeling quite lonely but actually that's just par for the
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course but what happens to a lot of people yeah they figure out gee i just must have made a mistake the stars didn't work out
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and it's wrong when it's par for the course that means the work just begins the lessons just start that's when
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that's when you're starting to learn something yeah that's when the work of real loving begins which i
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defined you may remember as the will to extend yourself that means go beyond where you
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ordinarily would be the will to extend yourself for someone else's spiritual growth
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your spouse or your children or your own and that's very important we also have to extend ourselves not only for other
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people but we have to extend ourselves for ourselves and isn't all growth about being spiritual
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however i think so uh you don't have to look at it that way but i think
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as i was saying we religious folk get to have spiritual crises i think it can if we take a spiritual view of things i
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think that it can facilitate our growth and you believe there's no problem that cannot be solved with discipline
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i had said that without any discipline you can't solve any problems with some you can solve some and with total
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discipline you can solve all problems but but but the solution to
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some problems is to accept that there is no solution so for instance uh i am getting old and
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i'm getting old quite rapidly i'm not in middle age i'm in late middle age but doesn't middle change the older
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you get for me metals getting really farther along americans in their distaste for pain will uh think that middle age
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begins when you're 60. and then suddenly 65 they find that they're an old age well i'm in late middle age and if you want to look
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at that as a problem that you can solve you're not going to get anywhere there's not aging is not a problem that
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you can solve now if you look at okay what have i got to learn from the aging process
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and beginning to face my mortality then you got a great deal well deepak chopra believes that you can
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actually stop the aging process i want to know whether or not you believe that we can solve the problem say of racism with discipline yes indeed
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i think that we can but boy what a lot of discipline over the past 60 70 years just as we have
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learned how to blow ourselves off the face of the earth unbeknownst to most people we have developed a
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technology a human technology as opposed to a technology of bombs or things to make peace technology
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of reconciliation peacemaking or consensual decision making or what we call
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community building and so we know how to get blacks and whites together
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greens yellows and purple peep leaders we know how to resolve conflicts but the
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problem is to get people to use this knowledge do you think people want to come together or i did a show not too long
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ago where this couple was fighting and she said the problem is my husband is more comfortable with his
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anger and i find over the years having done many shows on racism and sexism that a lot of people are more
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comfortable just being racist or more comfortable being prejudiced because it means they don't have to learn they
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don't have to move out of their little narrow minded box yeah my book a world waiting to be born is subtitled civility
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rediscovered and it's about civility about people relating together with civility but a
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lot of it is also about this business of pain again because i point out it is easier to be uncivil yes than it is to
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be civil to be civil requires that we listen to people and that means that we might get changed it requires that we think about
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new things it is much easier to sit with your prejudices and not get to know other people and not
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change and don't you think though then if you come to the planet and with all of these prejudice and you
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end up dying this hard narrow mean little life you've lived that you have just
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missed the point yeah i think you have missed the point the cure for racism and bigotry
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obviously we all have it otherwise we wouldn't be here we absolutely could end it in our lifetime
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if we chose to do so if we chose to do so we've got this technology of peacemaking or
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reconciliation and uh i can guarantee you take it out of this country for a moment that
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in south africa if you took five anglos and 15 blacks 15 africanas in about 35 blacks
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which is about proportional population got them in a room together for four or five days and got them to submit to
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these rules uh to the disciplines of community building i can guarantee you that they would leave there
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not only loving each other but able to work together with a profound effectiveness but the problem is how do you get them
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into the room i was talking about the baptist church the southern baptist church there's been a
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huge conflict going on for 40 years there and they've had peacemaking machinery off in the wings but people
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haven't used it a lot of people would rather fight than switch and it is not so easy to learn we can learn we
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know how to do this if we're willing to learn it but the problem is how do you get people to do it so what's going to happen if we
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don't learn it i don't know i'm indebted to my father back in the 50s this was more pointed he
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told me about an oriental sage he was asked by a reporter or somebody like you whether he was an optimist or a
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pessimist and he said oh he said i'm an optimist of course and the reporter said well how can you
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possibly be an optimist with all of this racial problems and corruption and inflation and war and whatnot and he
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said well he said i'm uh not very optimistic about this century but i'm profoundly optimistic
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about the next one well now that's 40 years later i'm not so optimistic about the first half of
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the 21st century but i'm profoundly optimistic oprah about the second half if we can get there
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without blowing ourselves up or killing us ourselves off with racial problems well what role do parents play and how
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important is it do you think i think the children are gifts
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to us from god essentially and that we are stewards of that gift and i think it is terribly
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important that we learn how to steward that it takes a great deal of time
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and energy and learning one of the greatest virtues of having children is the way to learn from them it's a way of joining the
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human race and really learning how yes because every experience is about learning and i think that parents can incredibly
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influence their children's lives now there is no way i think that most don't try hard enough don't learn enough
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on the other hand no matter how much you learn there's no way that you can do it perfectly my own children who are in their early
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30s now are just getting around to really blast me for all the things that i did wrong
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when i was a parent what did you give misguided love what you speak of in the book oh yeah i think that sometimes my love
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was thoughtless sometimes it was selfish sometimes i didn't think enough
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we said love was not a feeling but we were going to tell you what it is and what you say is that it really is action it is
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behavior yeah it is the way you act so all of those men sitting around the bar crying in their beer about i love my
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woman i love my wife i love my kids the way to show it is their behavior is through how you act toward another
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person yeah there's really one great rule for discernment it's been said in two ways
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my grandfather used to say handsome is as handsome does and another translation of that was when
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jesus said by their fruits you shall know them and so
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when we want to talk about building a world or creating a world where children grow up to be
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responsible for their own lives and understand that the power to change the world is is within them then how do you do that
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with parents who don't get that yet again it can be very hard for children to assume responsibility for their own
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lives when their parents have treated them irresponsibly nonetheless eventually
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you've got to get unhooked from your parents you may remember in the road last travel there's this wonderful old
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greek story about orestes his mother had killed his father
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and that put him in a real bind because a greek boy was obliged to kill his father's murderer
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and yet the worst sin a greek boy could do was to kill his mother he did go ahead and kill her and as a
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result of that the gods gave him this family curse and in the form of what were called the furies
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there were three harpies and wherever poor arrestees went they were cackling in his ear like with hallucinations and whatnot
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and finally after about 20 years of trying to atone for his problems or doing self psychotherapy maybe orestes went to the
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gods and said hey listen i've done enough telemet i think that you ought to lift this curse so they held a trial and apollo was
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rusty's defense attorney and he said well you know the gods really set this up it really wasn't a rusty's fault where upon
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arrest he stood up in the courtroom and he said it was i not the gods who killed my mother
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well the gods were amazed because no time before when a human being could
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have blamed something on the gods did he not take the opportunity that he held himself responsible
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and they were so amazed that what they did they lifted the curse and they transformed the harpies into what were called the
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humanities or the or the bearers of grace who then became wise voices
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teaching him and the message of this is eventually no matter how badly you've been treated
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as a child that you can sit around and complain about it for the rest of your life but that's not
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going to do any good eventually you need to take responsibility for your difficulties yourself and get on with it and the
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bearers of grace will bear you up yes the single most important thing a
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parent can do of course is is to love them is to love children but loving
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remember isn't just having a feeling like i love my children it is something has to be translated into
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action it's also something that takes a lot of time one of the things that's terribly
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important for parents to do is to learn again how to speak to their children with a single voice
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so nothing could be more destructive for children than to have mummy saying do it this way and daddy's saying no do it
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that way and they can just get torn apart but this takes a lot of time the
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most valuable thing one of the most valuable tricks lily and i have learned in our 33 and a half
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years of marriage is how to make appointments with each other now initially this seemed very
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stultifying and unromantic that you should need to make an appointment to talk with your husband or your wife
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except you know the problem was that i would come into the kitchen one afternoon and lily was fixing dinner for a dinner
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party of 12 that night and i'd raise some profound issue with my marriage or i'd come home
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at the end of the day totally strung out and she no sooner crossed the threshold and she'd dumped some very complex problems
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about the children on me and there's no reason it couldn't have waited for a day or even a day or two
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and so what we've learned to do now is to say hey hon i would like to talk to you about such
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and such when would be a good time yeah and we'll set up an appointment maybe later that
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day maybe the next day maybe the next week sometimes with their busy schedule the next month where we will have had the time to think
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about the issue where we'll clearly be able to hear each other rather than making kind of snap
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decisions most parents make really snap decisions somebody uh says mommy daddy
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can i stay out to 2 a.m this saturday night the most common ways people respond is to say no of course you can't you
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know dan while you're curfew's ten uh-huh or another is to say oh sure dear whatever you'd like uh-huh those are what might be called
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the right-wing and left-wing responses and you may realize why on thursdays i call myself a radical moderate
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but even though they're opposite they're the same in the sense they're both shoot from the hip kind of responses
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take no thought no energy no time and so the best thing to do is
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to take the time and figure out the consequences of your actions or the consequences of your intention think
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thinking thinking takes time good thinking takes time and prayer but what about all the people who
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say i just don't have the time well you know a lot of people ask me scotty how can you do
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all that you can do how can you keep writing books and run across the country shooting your mouth off and
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be all involved in this community business and social action and still be something of a husband and something of
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a father the reason i tell them that i can do all that is that i spend at least two hours a day doing nothing now they immediately tell me of
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course they're much too busy to do that instead they're watching you on tv well that's good
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but my two hours a day doing nothing i call this my prayer time most the time i'm not praying i'm just thinking
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about my life if i call it my thinking time people would feel free to interrupt it but if i call it my prayer time then
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that makes it holy right that's another trick of being a religious sort of person and that's where i get my life in order
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that's where i try to look at things in perspective and and set my priorities between what is
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important and what isn't important rather than just quickly responding one of the things i think that
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i look forward to in having children is to be able to do what andrew vox says in his book
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another chance to get it right it's what he calls the book and for me being able to have a child and to be
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able to impart this kind of wisdom or information or learning about life or to
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be able to start out with a child and let the child know from the very first day that he or she can speak that you came
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here to learn honey and this is a great big school room and that life is going to be difficult and there are some happy days there are
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some days it won't be so happy in between that to me is really exciting the idea of doing that excites me
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i think if i could give one gift to parents it would be to be able to remember what
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it was like when they were children what it's like to be a child one of the problems of poor parenting is that most
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parents have forgotten uh what it was like it is not easy to be a child because there is so much to learn and i
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think that uh talking to children about saying yeah it isn't easy i'm sorry it
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is hurting often what we do you know he'll say don't do that and then wipe that look off your face
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as as if we not only expect children to obey but also to be happy about it all the time i used to get whippings and in the
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midst of being whipped would be told to be quiet and not to cry yeah which is where really so what are
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you whipping me for and then i'd be whipped until i did cry so it was always this balance of should i cry early
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should i wait late you know really again i'm really sorry about that and that but that kind of no i i am
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sorry that kind of stuff hurts and can leave scars that you got to work on and it is tough you know what it left me with this
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whole disease to please that i had to work on for most of my life because in the midst of getting beaten
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you're trying to please the abuser you're trying to please the person that's beating you to do whatever it is you know to dance
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as fast as you can as barbara gordon had written in her book to do whatever you can to make the person think that you're all
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right which leaves a lot of scars yes but you've also turned it to good use yeah i'm working on it right yeah
29:46
working on it so you were talking we were talking about children i know you wrote a book for children yeah yeah this was kind of a surprise to
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me the greatest pleasure about it is that it's illustrated by my son christopher he called up one night and he's an
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artist out in san francisco and i told him i was starting to write my first book that was for children
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as well as for adults and he said hey let me illustrate it and and we got together it really
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worked out well now there there's some problems uh sometimes for a guy to work with his
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son just 23 there's some sort of power issues in the uh of course but you remember what
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it was like to be 23. i remembered something about having power issues with my own father
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uh and i tried to do the best i can we kind of transcended he did a he did a wonderful job with the illustrations so i know
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there's this interesting story behind why you called it the friendly snowflake yeah people have been urging me for
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years to write some kind of children's book which would embody the principles of my other work including the road last
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traveled and i said no i said you do it i said i don't know how to talk to children i don't even like children i don't understand children very well you do it
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but about two years ago i was out doing a speaking engagement in november in columbus ohio and
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it was a really cold gray day and i got into my hotel room and i was
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feeling kind of lonely and sorry for myself that i left home and the skyline wasn't too great but as i
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was sitting there looking out the window this one little snowflake started falling past my window
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and this got me out of feeling sorry for myself and i said well hi there snowflake and then it kind of
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drifted down and you talk about my dream and uh well maybe you can give me a
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certificate of mental health no no yeah i talked to snowflakes i said it was nice of you to come by and
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drift down a little more and i said you know it makes me feel kind of better just to see you and then as it drifted out of sight i i
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said you know maybe you're a friendly snowflake and then i said hey i can write a book about
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a friendly snowflake wow well i think what is magnificent is
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to be able to take pleasure in the smallest of moments i mean how many of you have stopped to notice a
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snowflake recently one of the neatest things about this was it was such a small moment i love to watch blizzards and
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heavy snow and i'm always wishing why we should snow harder harder and harder when i was reading that i was
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thinking it is hard to follow one snowflake you know you got gotta really be paying attention
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or else be bored or be bored to do that
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we're talking about the calling and how you felt that you were called to do road less travel yeah i was sitting uh one autumn evening
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in my living room and it just said write me discipline love grace write me and i'd had that kind of thing
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happen before and i thought it was kind of crazy so i said well let's see how this looks in the morning and when i've got a clear head and it looked pretty good and i
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said let's see how this looks next week then after about three weeks started revising my schedule so that i could
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write it but you know to write a book that's a kind of two-year endeavor plus i had to set aside from a busy
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practice and i couldn't do something like that unless i was really enthusiastic
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about it and enthusiasm you know means end theos god within it's like i couldn't
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have done it without god's help and bach said god wrote my music now i don't think that god wrote the road less
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traveled it's not the uh literal uh unerrant word of god it's even got a few
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mistakes in there but i think that i had some help with it and inspiration means the the incoming of
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breath or spirit uh so uh i think in some i think i was called by god but if you
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want secular people would call it your muse really they're talking about god except they're secular peoples yeah and i
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always say this i just don't believe god cares whether you call him god or whether you call him muse or whether you call it nature
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or her or where you call it it or whether you say universe or i don't like it you don't like it no it
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is kind of neuter and i don't think god is neuter i think god is she he is very sexy you do yeah
33:57
yeah i got a whole lecture i given that but uh i don't think it'd be right but i i don't think it'd be right for this program but i could talk to you for
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hours about this because i just think any force well you got to come visit me yeah i'd love to come up and sit on the porch any
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force that is omnipotent that powerful all-knowing would not get caught up in a name that's what i
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feel i was sitting in church many years ago and listening to the preacher talk about the lord thy god is a jealous god and i
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thought what's he got to be jealous of because he's got everything and that's
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when my whole concept of what religion was versus spirituality changed
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do you believe that the world waiting to be born will not be born until the 21st century well i kind of think
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that it's struggling now i think that the birth is going to be an ongoing thing we've always envisaged
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utopia as being some kind of static place where you get to and then everything's perfect
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and you don't have to do it anymore you can sit around on your duff and i think that utopia is a kind of process i think that the world is
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always going to be in the process of being born just like we as people
